Slingshot vs Thumb Release

[9x19]

1911 Tuner,

'Whenever something is changed, three other things must
be changed to compensate for it.'

Nothing.... not one thing... has been changed regarding the slide stop/release's functionality since the days of my own 1914 Colt 1911, so that point is rather oblique in terms of your original premise.

I can provide a more detailed description, but it will require
keeping an open mind...

There's no need for you to try and open your mind just to explain it to me.

I already understand the beast quite well... I'm just less convinced than some that I am the only one that does.

 

[1911Tuner]

Evolution

9x19...I'm not trying to say that only I understand the beast,
but there are several that don't. I'm only trying to help.
While the slide stop has changed very little, other things around it have...and while nothing means everything...everything means
something. To address the question of change...please read on.

This evolution thing can probably be better understood by looking at the hot-rodding practices that many of us indulged in during our rite of manhood passage.

We got our first car, and wanted more. We wanted it to go faster...so we ran out and bought an intake manifold that would bolt-on in place of the wimpy 2-barrel design, and topped it off with a big Holley 4-barrel, all the while envisioning an instant transformation from grocery-getter to drag strip screamer. What we got was very little, if any increase in performance, and often we got less. Sometimes the dependability went away as well.

FIguring that the reason was that there was too much going into the engine, and not enough out...Headers! That must be it! 150 dollars and another Saturday shot yielded...not much.

Must be the camshaft! 250 dollars for a cam and lifter set and we had something that sounded like a race car, but fell flat on its face out of the gate, and this is assuming that we got lucky and didn't need to degree the cam.

Ignition system! Yes! Well, that helped a bit, but still no cigar. By now we had learned a little about advance curves, and we got a little return for our efforts....but as rpm's increased, we got valve float. Off to buy a valve spring set that was designed to go along with the camshaft. Now we're cookin!

Not quite...The power curve had shifted, and while the car pulled like a bandit at the right rpm level, it was slow outta the gate. Gears! Our local hot-rod barn gets another fistful of our money for a ring and pinion set, and it we had the expertise to actually install it correctly, we were in the game.

We had a high-revving, pavement melting Honest-to-God fast car! Trouble was that now we had to stay on top of it constantly to keep it sharp...and sometimes just to keep it running. Then one fine Saturday night, during an 8-grand blast, something turns loose...and the knock tells us that something is very wrong
in the bottom end of that engine. We didn't take into account the fact that the crankshaft, connecting rods, bearings, pistons and rings weren't designed to handle the load...and we were back to square one, wishing that we had left it alone. At least we didn't have to walk or bum rides from our pals while our screamer was dead in the water until we spent 15 hours fixing it.

Whenever a working design is altered...3 other things must be changed to compensate. No getting around it.

T

 

[9x19]

'tuner,

To address the question of change...please read on.

That's alright... I'm full-up on the philosophy of change lectures, and I think its unlikely to contain anthing remotely cogent to the discussion at hand.

Do cary on tho'...

 

[BigG]

The car analogy is a good one. No such thing as a free lunch, magic bullet, etc. Of course, you did not mention the coolness factor!

 

[faustulus]

No offense 1911Turner, but I think you have over analyzed the mechanics. You pull your theory from angles, but other than 90 what other angle would reliably hold the slide back?

 

[1911Tuner]

Angles

No no! I wasn't suggesting that the angle was wrong...just that
it may be better to use a slingshot release except in a high-stress
situation to avoid undue wear...and that from looking at the
design, that the choice was there all along, and many didn't realize it, myself included.


As for "carrying on"....


I guess I need to apologize. I came here blind...didn't know many usernames. I've always held that an answer accompanied by an explanation is better recieved than simply a flat answer. Some folks want not only an answer, but they want to know why.

I was also operating under the assumption that the purpose of forums like this was for sharing and exchange of ideas, information, theories, new approaches, and helping some of those who don't understand something.,
but want to. While I never claimed to have all the answers, I've got more than a few, and sometimes a different approach can turn on a light for somebody else. How silly of me. Now I get it,
even though there are some few who actually appreciate the effort.

Regards all...
Tuner---------------->out!

 

[Handy]

Tuner,

I gave you a multiple of opportunities with a whole host of counterexamples, in essense, a ton of "different approaches" which you chose to not address. Instead, you ignored every example I offered and only sought to create "understanding" through your own examples and relating experiences that don't always apply.

Before you throw your arms up at the counter-intellectualism at THR, why don't you give people here credit for maybe having some insight and not talking down to them? I didn't debate you for two pages because I thought you were a fool, but that was how you wrote me off, both in that thread and in other, unrelated threads.

I suggest to you that it is possible that, despite whatever experience, sometimes an insight comes from forum members that is both counter to your experience, AND right. Reading and seriously considering what was said first may be of benefit to all.

 

[New_comer]

but other than 90 what other angle would reliably hold the slide back?

Different gun...


The later HK USP models have the slide lock notches angled more (or is it less?) than 90 degs, which promotes a more positive engagement of the slide notch/slidestop to lock open. More like 75 degress 'hooking' on to the other at recoil spring force.


Needs quite a bit of downwards push at the 'very prominent' lever to release the mating parts. You could imagine that the slide has to move back a bit before it gets 'unhooked'...


That's the reason why I slingshot more often than I thumb it, to protect the parts from (imagined ) wear...


In comparison, the standard 1911's slide stop is puny, so I think it doesnt lend itself to being used as a release lever in the first place.


Since we're trying to 'read' the fabled designer's mind when he designed the part, my 'read' is that it's a basic stop, nothing more. Evolved into the release lever later on...

 

[1911Tuner]

Handy..Now I understand things

Handy...I wasn't talking down. I was frustrated because I couldn't make you understand that the barrel and slide move together for a very short distance,
and then the barrel changes directions. The different axis is where the
problems start when the lower lug is wrong.

This wasn't theory. It was based on a bad experience when I first started building pistols. I overcut a lug radius...we didn't have the lug cutters in those days...and although I realized that the link position was out-of-spec, I thought that it would be okay. The pistol seemed to function fine, but the locking lugs were ruined quickly. A check revealed that the link position was 1.5 degrees overcentered. Not far out, but just enough.

I sought out an answer from somebody who knew...and that was the reason that I got. A second and third opinion netted the same answer. The barrel linkdown was delayed, and the slide crashed into the front of the locking lugs.

There. Now we can all be friends again...

 

[BigG]

Everybody who wants to be an expert should study the subject matter for themselves, formulate their own questions, and find their own answers. The questions/answers of one expert will not necessarily be the same as those of another expert on the same subject. We can all learn something new about any subject.

 

[New_comer]

I'm very poor with visualizations


To those like me, this might help:


http://www.m1911.org/locking.htm


NOW, let us form our own opinions!

 

[Old Fuff]

I rise to support "Tuner" again, with the observation that while the times and techniques have changed Browning's pistol hasn't - at least very much. This thread has revolved around certain mechanical considerations and how they may effect the function of the piece when things are done in a certain way. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, but the wise will consider the implications - good and bad. All the "old timers" have done is start the discussion, and experience over a long period of time is not necessarily obsolete.

 

[Dobe]

Speaking for myself,
I would like to see these discussions continue. If you disagree with someone on the post, there is no reason that you cannot restate your ideas for clarification. If your disagreement is not met with your satisfaction, then ask again.

But at some point, it becomes time to let the more knowledgeable explain. One of my mottos for self-improvement, is "If you don't understand, then do the research before you come back to the table (discussion)".

 

[9x19]

The dicussion? Yes.

The snide character assassination as in 'tuner's last post to Handy? Nope.

Handy and I have had disagreements, but he has shown himself to be a better man than 'tuner.

 

[1911Tuner]

Character

aaaaaaaaaaa...Yer right 9by...It was inexcuseable. I don't
get my buttons pushed often...
I've edited the personal part of the post and left the facts....
with all due apologies.

Regards,
T

 

[Erik]

I used to only hit the slide stop. It was fast, worked, and that was all I knew.

These days I sling shot almost exclusively.

Though I still find myself using the slide stop from time to time when I perceive a pressing need for speed.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm reasonably certain this "undue wear" in regards to the slidestip being used as a release is nonsense, primarily because my dad's carry pistol has the slidestop used as a release 100% of the time, and shows no wear on the slide, excepting that the finish is rubbed off.


If my gun ever stops locking back because the notch is worn, i figure it'll be time to replace the slide due to other problems anyway.

 

[tech]

Color me crazy but Tuner's theory that using the slide release will wear the slide slide release and or notch in the slide more quickly than the slingshot method make's perfect sense to me. Can you, could you, should you = personal preference its your pistol. Either the slide or the slide stop is going to be softer, even with the same steel because of heat treatment and one or the other will eventually show the effects of wear. Thanks for a lively debate.

Mike

 

[gryphon]

I love my 1911 as much as the next 1911 nut, but did anyone ever think that maybe JMB, as smart as he was, could have just screwed up? Maybe everything that he has done, every little component may not be 100% perfection?

I'm sorry if I sound a little gruff, but a lot of these threads seem to be hinging on "mutual admiration society".

My 1911 is a tool that I use and trust because I shoot it well and it is reliable. To be totally honest I do not care about the science of barrel lockup and widget timing and whatnot. If we all cared about it as much as a gunsmith, then there would be no need for a smith as everyone could do all their work to their own firearms.

 

[Dobe]

Why Monitor this thread?

Gryphon,
All due respect, I am very curious why you are monitoring this thread, if the gunsmithing and the "whys" is something in which you are not interested.

 

[DJL2]

Just as something to note quickly:

Using the Slide stop to realease the slide will ABSOLUTELY cause the part to wear more quickly.

It is a simple matter of the part being subject to wear in one condition and none in the other. The part is stressed when used a release, the part is not stressed when the slide is slingshotted.

The question is not whether the part will wear, or wear faster, but wether or not it is enough to make a difference. That's just simple mechanics.

Have to edit in a question:
Just out of curiousity would the lugs on, say a Glock or SIG, using a very different contour than those on the 1911 be less susceptable to damage if the barrel unlocks late? That seems as if it would be the case to me based on the geometry of the barrel.

 

[Delmar]

Other than those old thumbnail front sights, wonderful for young eyes, I can't see where JMB made a mistake on anything, at least for me. The pistol balances nicely in my hands, parts-when they do wear are easy to change, nothing particularly difficult to tear down-even the Series 80 with those few extra parts. True, there are some easier to tear down to the last bolt and spring and some are a nightmare, but it really comes down to your preference and how you plan to maintain it.

I still buy my vehicles from the standpoint of "can I work on this", and I buy my firearms the same way.

Some people do not want to get that far into their weapon and thats okay too-thats why gunsmiths exist.

I like the idea of being better able to understand the intricacies of this weapon and all weapons in a general sense.

My best friend loves his Beretta 84 and I understand the engineering in it, but it has more fragile parts and odd looking springs than a bordello mattress in a china shop, but when it is put together and lubed properly (read sparingly!), it shoots very well indeed. BUT-he better not ever bring another new toy to my house again in a shoebox after he attempted to tackle it himself!

 

[Handy]

I wish I could have seen the original, unedited post.

 

[Dorian]

It's called the "Slide Release Lever" on a USP!

If you're talking 1911 only, I don't own one, so I cant comment. I use the slide release on my USP religiously. Because thats what I learned on my M9 in MP school, and it's what I do with my USPs.

The only pistol I can't do it on is the glock. I have to slingshot that. But that's ok because I'm not a glock fan

 

[jungleman]

My Colt will chamber both ways.
My new Kahr PM9 with a FULL magazine will not chamber the first round by slingshot. It will chamber by slide release lever.
Other owners of the Kahr PM9 report the same.
I can see advantages of both ways. As often as I shoot my weapons I could do anything without damage. I guess a little common sense should prevail. If you use the weapon a lot you might be concerned about wear. My Colt .45 has only been shot around 300 times since 1979.