Small knife effectiveness

[JShirley]

Chico,

I think some folks think I'm saying small blades can't hurt people. Of course they can.

What I am saying, is know how to use what you've got. With a knife, if you can't escape, that probably means "the best defense is a good offense".

John

 

[The Tourist]

I think some folks think I'm saying small blades can't hurt people.

Yikes, I hope not! Jesse James killed his first man with a broken knife, it had only one inch of blade length.

The crux is always "man and machine." A drunk with a Bagwell is about as dangerous as a common head cold. However, if I ever get the privilege of meeting Mr. Vancook the first thing I'm going to tell him is that I'm scared to death of him. Just so there's no misunderstandings...

I also believe that modern technology plays a factor. Little knives are better now. They get sharper. They chip less. There's more research into ergo.

Little knives are very deadly.

 

[The Tourist]

Here's my deadly little knife. It has only 1.5 inches of blade edge.

 

[Joe Demko]

A drunk with a Bagwell is about as dangerous as a common head cold.

Fancy that. One wonders how so many people end up getting murdered by drunks, then.

 

[The Tourist]

Fancy that. One wonders how so many people end up getting murdered by drunks, then.

It's other drunks.

If you ask an ER professional about knife fights they answer with something like, "At least one cut, but both drunk."

The most blowhard, death-dealing, chest-thumping townie in the bar gets dragged home by his wife who's tired of the nonsense.

 

[Carl Levitian]

Almost all the calls involving knives when I was a police officer, also involved very intoxicated people.

 

[Joe Demko]

I've been drunk and had a head cold both at the same time. I lived. Guess I'm either lucky or tougher than I thought.

 

[JShirley]

I really want to get my hands on a Razel sometime soon...

 

[The Tourist]

I really want to get my hands on a Razel sometime soon...

Ahhh, what you need is a knife salesman.

More to the point, where are you going to find a salesman that also has access to refined sharpening techniques.

Where, oh where...

 

[JShirley]

What I really need is more money. I can find the "crack dealers".

(hso jokingly refers to himself as a crack dealer for those who love fine knives. Considering the jolt you get when you handle a beautifully done knife, it's understandable.)

 

[The Tourist]

a beautifully done knife

A beautifully done knife is mere eye candy.

Now, a beautifully done knife with a polished razor edge, that's a knife.

 

[conw]

Tourist,

I think you sometimes oversimplify things. I get what you're saying about the "common head cold" as a point of reference - there are certainly worse things than a "drunk with a bowie" - but to me, anyone armed with a knife that has the slightest ill will, or heck, anyone armed with anything with ill will toward me at all, is a very serious threat.

 

[The Tourist]

oversimplify..."drunk with a bowie"...a very serious threat

Believe it or not, actually they are not (a serious threat).

The very definition of a "townie" means that he is a nightly regular to that saloon. Many/most times they huff and puff and threaten and knock each other around and essentially blow off steam.

Yes, there are cases where a guy loses a ton of money in a poker game, leaves the bar, and comes back with a gun. That's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about two, stupid drunks who fight over wet change, or a pool game or an insult to their hideous girl friend and hurt each other by insipid luck.

Why do you think I denigrate townies whenever I can? They are the main reason the cops are called. In Madison, your liquor license can be pulled because of too many complaints to law enforcement. Last year, two hip-hop clubs were closed due to gun fights.

It's not a knife fight. The problem is alcohol, and the fools who live this way. In the three bars that got most of the business from my club, almost all of the complaints involved drunks, not bikers.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

well, it all depends on how drunk, and what sub-species of drunk your talking about. if we're talking the drunk who drank himself blind, not really a threat compaired to the angry drunk who had just enough to get him riled up with liquid courage.

 

[Joe Demko]

You can all handle it any way you like.
A drunk with a bowie knife who intends me harm is getting shot.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

oh, i didnt say they aint getting hurt if they come for me with a knife, im just saying the threat level goes down the drunker they are.

 

[The Tourist]

the threat level goes down the drunker they are.

And that's the class of low-life I'm talking about. No matter what time of day I rolled into Joey's Anchor Inn, the same stupified winos were still hanging out, and hanging to each other. If you were new to the bar you might have mistaken the group for a mural that smelled like vomit.

We're not talking about your average trailor park toughie who smacks his wife around. We're talking about hopeless alcoholics.

This is the demographic most referred to by ER personnel. I think the knife, it's length, who carried it, how it was used, and even if the correct end was used, to be entirely superfluous.

 

[LAK]

On slashing ...

Aside from actual targets; areas such as the neck etc - slashes perhaps need to be described in terms of concentration of force.

A simple, fast "swipe" with a small blade is probably going to produce a fairly superficial wound. Unless it is across the forehead (which will bleed heavily and maybe "blind" your antagonist), and the neck sides perhaps.

A slash can be concentrated in the same way a punch is thrown with follow through, exerting tremendous force; i.e. the blade tip is turned in and the force is delivered with the intention of cutting through the body, limb target area etc.

Of course one is not going to literally sever an arm or head with a small pocket knife with a single slash. However, one can assuredly cut inside the arm at the elbow to the bone. With an upturned blade one could sever alot of blood vessel and tendon where the inside thighs meet the groin. The larger and sharper the blade the better of course.

And I doubt though that most attackers are going to stick around once they have been badly cut, even with a somewhat superficial wound, unless they really have it in for you for a particular reason. Most opportunist thieves and thugs are cowards and do not like the sight of their own blood.

 

[JShirley]

A slash can be concentrated in the same way a punch is thrown with follow through, exerting tremendous force; i.e. the blade tip is turned in and the force is delivered with the intention of cutting through the body, limb target area etc.

LAK, that's how I attacked the target. If it had been a person, they might have been knocked down if they were small or off balance.

 

[The Tourist]

Guys, I think we're missing the one element here. That's the very concept of the application. Let me explain.

In previous debates, we've discussed calibers and how diameter size and power relate to defense. In that regard, we discuss "mouse guns." Fair enough.

But in that debate we must look upon a mouse gun's application in self defense. For example, a felon drops out of the shadows, you go into a defensive posture and you see "all he has" is a .25 ACP Raven. Does your opinion and possible action change simply because it's not a 1911?

So let's play out that scenario for knives.

Pick your own scenario. You make and choose the roles as the good guy and the bad guy. But whatever the option of that story telling, you spin the biker around for some very serious confrontation, and the flash of glitter in his hand is not a Bagwell Bowie, but it's me and my Razel.

Now, you remember this thread. Hey, it's only a three inch edge. In fact it's more of a 2.5 inch edge. You've seen the pictures in THR, the posts are explained by people you trust and respect.

Okay, Chico probably has enough on the ball to land a superfluous slash on my wrist or possibly somewhere on my neck. He might even get in a few quick jabs with the front edge--but, hey, that's a relatively blunt chisel. And to boot, this clown has no official recognized MA training. No in depth credentials in JKD.

All he has is some typical jailhouse info. All he is going to do is latch onto me and wail away with a dozen or so cuts and stabs with a three inch knife.

You start to giggle. Heck, I'm in no danger at all.

 

[JShirley]

No, stabs scare me a lot. Slashes I don't like, but they rarely kill.

 

[The Tourist]

JShirley, I'd rather not go through any of it. And I truly believe we do not take the position that it's "just a slash" seriously.

As always, I recommend a search on Snopes.com for knife wounds.

There's an old Three Stooges line that applies here, "I hate the sight of blood, especially when it's my own."

But having looked at the debates for self-defense and knowing the very serious outcome of how that plays out, I'd slash the stuffings out of an aggressor and I doubt he'd be the same smug predator he once was.

And that's with a 2.5 inch knife.

 

[JShirley]

I really want to keep my distance from knives, Chico, at least when they're being used aggressively. That's one of several reasons I usually suggest other options if you know you're facing one.

 

[KiltedClaymore]

i like my plan: run away. best plan ever!

 

[The Tourist]

JShirley, and I would heartily agree. And there's more to the story.

For example, when we look at the global aspects of the historic improvements in firearms, we see dramatic dividing lines. Like matchlock to musket to rifle to percussion caps to cartridges to scopes to lasers. (Granted, that's very, very general in nature.)

Being a blade nut, I see imporovements in knives in that same fashion.

At present we now have alloys that allow razor performance, we have reasonable pricing due to CAD and CNC machining, we have defensive videos, we have McDojos even kids can afford, we TK style magazines, Escrima, Keating, the Graham brothers...the list goes on.

For 75 dollars, access to a tinker and a DVD, I can now obtain a cutting tool rivaling a 1300 AD samurai tanto. Fully, it surpasses any Bowie of the 1840's.

And any idiot can obtain this tool, legally with the money his mom gives him for lunch.

We are no longer in the "switchblade--Mack the Knife" era of edged tools. As you know I have a Konjo here that easily outdoes a pistol at contact distances. You can obtain its use by reading any knife rag or googling the 21-foot rule.

I feel this way because I have polished the edges of these newer knives.