Snub Nose Carry Wheelgun Hammer Preference

[gila_dog1]

The ability to take a SA shot if the opportunity presents itself is sure valuable to me. I can shoot so much more accurately SA than DA. If I can make one very accurate shot, that may be all that's needed. But if it's all about speed and the target is big and close, then DA is the way to go. I think a shrouded hammer that I can still cock for SA would be the best. But my J frames have hammers so that's how I go. I'm sure not going to grind off the hammer spurs.

 

[SteadyD]

I always prefer DAO over the option for SA simply for the sake of safety. I have a few revolvers that I need to get the hammer bobbed on. One bonus to a bobbed hammer over a concealed hammer is the ability to rest your thumb on the hammer while holstering to make absolutely certain nothing has gotten in the trigger guard and is pulling the hammer. Highly unlikely on a 10 lbs + trigger, but there is nothing wrong with an additional layer of safety.

 

[stanley_white]

Fully protected so it can draw snag-free and should I end up rolling with some fool it is one less thing to worry about interfering with firing.

-Stan

 

[RON in PA]

DA only for me, mostly carry a 642, but do have a 640-1 and 640-2 that get carried occasionally. Just purchased a Taurus 856 snub that is DA only. Like the extra shot, might become the most carried. I should mention that I carry holstered in my front pocket.

 

[Kleanbore]

Could a crooked cop or bent prosecutor make the case that the modified Rossi with reloaded ammo makes it illegal for me to use it against a home invader? Sure.

Can you cite any law that would make such use illegal?

I don’t let the fact that there’s crooked public officials stop me from doing what I think is right.

"Crooked public officials" are the least of the worries of someone pursuing a legal defense of self defense.

 

[Haywood]

I only shoot my J-Frames double action. The 638 and 3” 36 have hammers but, they never are shot single action. In fact, the 638 has never been shot single action, by me. I bobbed the 37 and have never had a problem. The 442’s were my favorites and were carried most but, all my J-Frames are rotated as backup off hand carry pocket guns (except the 3”) no mater what I carry in the waist. I have practiced a lot of years and I can shoot just as accurate double Acton. Maybe better.

 

[wcwhitey]

But your claim may well not be accepted..
After the fact it will be entirely in the hands of others.

It’s all about the draw and shot placement at some point. The “only police should be allowed to have guns,” crowd is very good at throwing wrenches and coming up with reasons why no “civilian” should be allowed to have a gun because we’re just too stupid, too clumsy, too flighty, too this, that and the other thing. I have both a hammer revolver Colt DS and a hammerless Rossi in my desk right now. The Colt is dead stock but pushing a century old; the Rossi is a DA/SA that was modified to DAO. Could a crooked cop or bent prosecutor make the case that the modified Rossi with reloaded ammo makes it illegal for me to use it against a home invader? Sure. And if I don’t get a good (expensive) lawyer, they’ll easily railroad me into prison. It’s not right but it’s possible. I don’t let the fact that there’s crooked public officials stop me from doing what I think is right. Maybe I should but then wouldn’t that be knuckling in to tyranny?

There are always exceptions so nobody can say for certain. From my experience shootings are either justified or they are not. There are things that can and may be brought up similar to the Kile Rittenhouse situation regarding ammo and the like. It’s why I don’t do modified firearms for CC. I have never seen where a weapon that functions as the factory intended was an issue. A firearm entered into evidence with obvious modifications is more likely to be questioned. Ammo, intent, maybe even that choice of weapon can be questioned, fair game. I eliminate variables in my carry. Ammo is left over Department issued Speer Short Barrel, gun is bone stock S&W. My training is such that I do NOT reach for a hammer when drawing, it’s a point and double action affair.
I cannot speak for others training and ability. A new shooter or a inexperienced shooter very well may be better suited with a DAO gun. That is a valid case to make. I also cannot speak to the possibility of a corrupt of ill intended prosecutor, thats an unknown. My assumption that if the intention of to make an example out of you anything can and will be tried.
Why I disagreed with the SA/DA premise is that if you accidentally pull the trigger and injure someone than it is truly your fault, your choice of firearm should be questioned. If a shooting is justified doing it in single or double action if of no consequence. You can hit them with it and if it goes off then oh well you were justified in using deadly force anyway. That fact appears well before a gun is drawn anyway or should be. The rest is just how you followed up with your legal act of self preservation. Ultimately the OP asked for “Personal Preference”. I have mine. It is based on my situation and my ability. Others may come to different conclusions. And that is why they make different models of J frame snubs.

 

[Agsalaska]

As we see more instances of people opening fire with rifles in public places, the possibility of needing precision at longer distances is getting more attention. My EDC piece has a bobbed hammer, for many of the reasons mentioned on this thread, but I'm not going to argue against the man who wants the ability to shoot S.A.

So, just for fun, I took several guns to the range the other day and shot them from about 40 yards which is where the Indiana mall shooting started. I had with me a Glock 20, Colt Python, Model 10, Kahr K9, and my S&W J Frame(can't remember the exact model) with a shrouded hammer.

I shot the Python and 10 the best of course using single action. I did OK with the semi autos. But the J frame surprised me. I was 5 for 5 single action but only 5-10 double action. In fact out of single action I shot the J frame better then the Glock and the Kahr.

It opened my eyes a little bit. I often carry a Ruger LCR in .327 and didn't have it with me to test. Next week I plan on taking it and trying again.

 

[Ted100]

Do you prefer a fully exposed hammer, semi-shrouded hammer, or fully shrouded/enclosed hammer for your snub nose wheelgun of choice ? Why ?

fully shrouded similar to the S&W bodyguard (Model 49). I can still cock the hammer for SA precision work and the no snag factor so best of bothe worlds. Some say the original bodyguard is ugly but I absolutley disagree. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Kleanbore]

From my experience shootings are either justified or they are not.

Okay, BUT those who decide were not there. The triers of fact will base their decision on what evidence can be gathered after the fact and that is admitted by the judge. The evidence will be incomplete.

Exculpatory evidence may not be gathered, or in some cases my not be admitted under the rules of evidence. Witnesses my not have seen what led to the shooting. Others may lie.

Some of the evidence may not come from the scene. Internet postings, posters, and bumper stickers that go to state of mid can prove very important.

In a self defense case, the shooter admits to having done the deed and says he did so on purpose but was justified in having done so. Remember that the majority of people whom prosecutors, judges, and defense attorneys encounter who claim self defense do so because they cannot deny having fired the shots--they are guilty. The lawful defender must deal with that fact.

And there is more to it than justification. In the criminal trial, the defendant may be charged with some degree of murder or manslaughter; with negligent homicide or wounding; or with reckless endangerment. The prosecution must prove guilt beyond any reasonable doubt in all cases. However, the state may choose to go with one of the lesser charges to increase the likelihood of conviction.

That's where the single action issue comes up. If the shooter had the option to cock the hammer, the state may argue that he did so, obviating the need to prove that the shooting was deliberate and taking the question of justification out of the picture.. They can produce expert witnesses who can prove that even the best trained shooters tend to touch the trigger during a stressful incident, even without realizing that they have done so, and that their motor skills are impaired.

In a civil trial, all of the same things apply, but the burden of persuasion is much lower.

I do not want that risk.

This is why we find surplus police revolvers that cannot be fired in the single action mode.

 

[wcwhitey]

“This is why we find surplus police revolvers that cannot be fired in the single action mode.”

Again your mileage may vary! Cities and municipalities made this choices based on numerous reasons. Single action shooting of suspects was not a big issue. I carried a DAO Model 64 before I carried a DAO Model 226. One of the factors of the older Model 10’s is that they are never and issue. There were friendly fire issues and that happened even into the DAO era. I continued to carry a DAO 640 until retirement along with a DAO Sig 239. Society has changed over the years and those that make decisions are not always the most informed to be polite. Warning shots were authorized once upon a time. Then they were not, officers taught in the old Bullseye method of shooting were all of a sudden told under no circumstances should they cock their revolver.
We can go back and forth in the court issues, my experience has taught me that in a justified shoot even in places like NY is just that. A legal, properly functional weapon is not an issue. Your training, mental state and numerous other variables may be. If you don’t have the proper training, don’t practice trigger control and want to cock your revolver upon draw then you will have issues possibly. That is not what we are talking about. If you cock your revolver and accidentally shoot someone you will %1000 have a problem. If you do not and only shoot when you are legally allowed to do so you will not. With your assumption there is not a firearm out there that you can say would not be challenged, a 1911, DA/SA auto, Glock, I can go on. They are deadly weapons plain and simple with deadly consequences. That should not be taken lightly. Any shooting will be scrutinized, good idea to have a legal defense fund if you carry daily. I have zero worry about a responsible trained person choosing a J frame revolver of SA/DA capability as a means of self preservation. The design is 150 years old, it is ingrained into our society that the good guy’s carry revolvers. There is nothing radical nor offensive about having a hammer in a revolver. As with any shooting, you screw up you pay the piper.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Okay, BUT those who decide were not there. The triers of fact will base their decision on what evidence can be gathered after the fact and that is admitted by the judge. The evidence will be incomplete.

Exculpatory evidence may not be gathered, or in some cases my not be admitted under the rules of evidence. Witnesses my not have seen what led to the shooting. Others may lie.

Some of the evidence may not come from the scene. Internet postings, posters, and bumper stickers that go to state of mid can prove very important.

In a self defense case, the shooter admits to having done the deed and says he did so on purpose but was justified in having done so. Remember that the majority of people whom prosecutors, judges, and defense attorneys encounter who claim self defense do so because they cannot deny having fired the shots--they are guilty. The lawful defender must deal with that fact.

And there is more to it than justification. In the criminal trial, the defendant may be charged with some degree of murder or manslaughter; with negligent homicide or wounding; or with reckless endangerment. The prosecution must prove guilt beyond any reasonable doubt in all cases. However, the state may choose to go with one of the lesser charges to increase the likelihood of conviction.

That's where the single action issue comes up. If the shooter had the option to cock the hammer, the state may argue that he did so, obviating the need to prove that the shooting was deliberate and taking the question of justification out of the picture.. They can produce expert witnesses who can prove that even the best trained shooters tend to touch the trigger during a stressful incident, even without realizing that they have done so, and that their motor skills are impaired.

In a civil trial, all of the same things apply, but the burden of persuasion is much lower.

I do not want that risk.

This is why we find surplus police revolvers that cannot be fired in the single action mode.

I think you’re going far off topic. This response belongs in the legal forum not revolvers.

 

[Kleanbore]

I think you’re going far off topic. This response belongs in the legal forum not revolvers.

It belongs in the thread in which the qustion was posed..

 

[jstert]

my own choices of what i have.

as a pure ccw: s&w 642. hammerless dao. nothing to snag, no exposed hammer channel to collect gunk, especially if carried as a sidearm in outdoors pursuits.

as a one and done, does all, utility piece: taurus 85. traditional sa/da with exposed hammer.

i would never bob a factory hammer, by myself or even have done by a most competent gunsmith. i would worry about function and liability, plus a hammered revolver is a piece of beauty, a mechanical jewel.

 

[Riomouse911]

Lotsa “what if’s” in this thread.

Personally I prefer the 640-series of enclosed hammer revolvers for ccw. The shrouded 49-series second, since one can still shoot it from inside a coat/sweatshirt pocket without material getting between the hammer and frame if the situation calls for it. Bobbed hammer third ( I don’t have any of those). I choose hammer guns fourth, only because drawing them from concealment requires a “thumb over the spur” grip that shields the hammer from clothing material to effectively draw it. When I didn’t get that proper grip it seemed like I was like drawing a treble hook from my pocket.

Many of my small frame .38’s and .22’s have hammers because I like them (Colt new Cobra, SP-101, 3” Model 36, 3” Model 317, 4” Model 34). But for strictly ccw, my smooth 642-442 guns are my first choice, followed by my Model 49.

YMMV.

Stay safe.

 

[Tallball]

Which would be easier to draw and fire if you were suddenly grabbed or knocked around, and maybe not using your usual hand?

 

[Speedo66]

I've ground off several hammer spurs. All of the revolvers functioned just fine afterwards. I think the same energy is being delivered via the hammer from the spring either way.

If you just grind off the hammer spur Bubba-style and don't change anything else, it can still be fired SA if you really want to. Squeeze the trigger so that the hammer starts to rise, then you can cock it with your thumb even without the spur. I wouldn't recommend it, but it can be done, NP. Undoing it is the tricky bit.

I've also ground off hammers with no ill effects.

Discussion here about loss of mass, but I wonder if the lighter hammer now moves faster, overcoming the loss?

 

[mcb]

I've also ground off hammers with no ill effects.

Discussion here about loss of mass, but I wonder if the lighter hammer now moves faster, overcoming the loss?

Yes if you reduce hammer mass and do not change the springs then the hammer has to move faster. There is X amount of potential energy stored in the hammer spring in the displacement from uncocked to cocked. The hammer will have that much kinetic energy when it strikes. With the exception of some small amount of energy going to frictional losses.

 

[Kleanbore]

Thanks, mcb, for the clear explanation.

I was hoping that you would field this one.

 

[Rexster]

My carry revolvers have several different hammer configurations, but, ideally, I’d just as soon have an exposed hammer spur, and that the shroud be on the holster, such as a Milt Sparks AW200. I am not saying that all of my revolvers have hammers with spurs; several are spur-less. And, I do not always wear a 200AW, as it does not hug the body closely, so, is not as concealable as the Milt Sparks PMK, for example.

In the case of S&W J-Frames, I would rather that the hammer be shrouded or completely internal, but, J-snubs are NOT my revolvers “of choice.” (I prefer the SP101, as a minimum size for a carry gun.)

 

[Buckeye63]

Charter 44Spl & LCR357
LCR327
Taurus NV & S&W 642

These are my DAO revolvers all 38spl Sans the Charter Boomer

I have a passel with hammers

 

[Rodfac]

Do you prefer a fully exposed hammer, semi-shrouded hammer, or fully shrouded/enclosed hammer for your snub nose wheelgun of choice ? Why ?

Since the question does not limit the OP's use for CC purposes, I'll answer that I prefer my Smith snub noses with a hammer...we carry here on the farm as well as trips to town and the city with the same gun...a Smith M-60 with a 3" bbl. and utilize an OWB for both purposes.

While I practice DA most for use in self defense situations, I find that most often in woods, fields and barn, I use the SA method for better accuracy. The gun fulfils multiple purposes in other words. And in 52 years of carrying a hammered DA S&W revolver in an OWB holster, concealed, I've yet to have a hang up on coat or shirt tail. It's a training issue. For those who prefer a bobbed or shrouded hammer model, more power to them and I respect their choice.

Best Regards, Rod Pic is the rig I normally wear.

​

 

[SeanSw]

My LCR is DAO with no exposed hammer and I have a spare K frame trigger ready to trim for forced DAO whenever I get around to bobbing a model 10. I can see the argument for shortening the spur and maintaing some SA capability, yet in a world of 13+1 9mm compacts it hardly seems worth discussing for a little old .38.

 

[fastbolt]

Before I entered LE I enjoyed a lot of target shooting and plinking in both SA and DA modes using my revolvers. Then, when I later started in LE, when service revolvers were still the norm, the bulk of my training and qualifying was done in DA.

Of course, back in those days there was some concern among LE that a revolver cocked into SA, with the usual light SA hammer pull weight, could become a problem with ND's when things got exciting and stressful. It was brought home to me when I learned of a case that occurred in a local agency, where someone was unintentionally shot & killed by an excited the cop holding a revolver cocked into SA. (This is one of the reasons why there were some agencies who ended up using DAO service revolvers back then.) Anyway, while we were permitted to thumb cock a revolver into SA if making an extended range, aimed shot (like 50yds or more), we were expected to shoot DA.

My first 5-shot snub revolvers had hammer spurs, meaning either standard (36's) or shrouded (like my original Bodyguard 649 .38SPL). I picked up an early SP101DAO (spurless hammer), and a couple of the original CA Bulldogs, at various times along the way.

Then, many years later I started shooting a training J-frame we had in our range inventory, one of the early 640-1's (frame marked approved for +P+). I liked the internal hammer Centennial style snub, and I ordered a 642-1 when they were approved for the use of +P. It was my first Centennial styled snub, as well as my first Airweight. It was a lot handier for pocket holster carry than my steel snubs, but the lighter weight took some practice when +P loads were being used. (I practiced by also shooting a LOT of the Winchester LE 110gr +P+ Treasury Load through the training 640-1, since we had cases of the stuff we'd picked up from another agency.)

Nowadays I rather like the Centennial style snubs, and own a pair of 642-1's, M&P 340's and a nifty 37-2DAO (with a factory spurless hammer). Doesn't mean I don't still like my spurred hammers, though.

The Centennial styled snubs are simply easier to draw from pocket holster carry, and I don't have to worry about hammer spurs wearing holes in my shirts and coats so much.

 

[Styx]

I prefer a shrouded hammer for small j frames that I plan on carrying in the pocket. For belt and other forms of carry, I want the hammer.

I never had the hammer of my revolvers tear a hole in my shirt or snag on anything as I draw it out of a holster, so I have no clue what others are doing wrong. I also am amazed in how so many can see the future, and can possibly know whether they'll have the time and opportunity to fire a shot in S/A for self defense.