Average expansion of .73? Are you sure?
How well does your 642 serve you in an El Presidente drill?
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How well does your 642 serve you in an El Presidente drill?
Old_Grouch
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According to the test results at the link I posted, yes.
I don't know. If I ever anticipate being hired by a South American president for his security detail I'll give it a whirl and get back to you.
Jack Flash
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I carried a S&W 642-1 for a long time and felt comfortable with it.
When was the last time any US civilian needed more than 5 rounds in a self defense situation?
Was at my LGS picking up a S&W MP 2.0 45 that I'd ordered. Was talking to the shop owner and told him I'd heard a lot of good stuff about the Sig P365. He took one out of the case and said he just got it in. As soon as I held it I knew I wanted it. I managed to make it out of the shop without it, and when I started up my bike to leave, I thought about just going back in and buying it, but I made it home with one gun.
Got home and was eating and couldn't stop thinking about that little Sig. Called the shop and told him to box it up, and I'd be there in a few to get it. He told me he'd boxed it up as soon as I left the shop...he knows me well.
I'm actually a good shot with it, way better than the 642, and it does hold 11 instead of 5 rounds, even thou in all my years I've never needed one round.
When was the last time any US civilian needed more than 5 rounds in a self defense situation?
Was at my LGS picking up a S&W MP 2.0 45 that I'd ordered. Was talking to the shop owner and told him I'd heard a lot of good stuff about the Sig P365. He took one out of the case and said he just got it in. As soon as I held it I knew I wanted it. I managed to make it out of the shop without it, and when I started up my bike to leave, I thought about just going back in and buying it, but I made it home with one gun.
Got home and was eating and couldn't stop thinking about that little Sig. Called the shop and told him to box it up, and I'd be there in a few to get it. He told me he'd boxed it up as soon as I left the shop...he knows me well.
I'm actually a good shot with it, way better than the 642, and it does hold 11 instead of 5 rounds, even thou in all my years I've never needed one round.
Godsgunman
Member
My main carry was a Sig 365. Great gun, love it. Lately I've been carrying my new Charter 357 pug. I just love the feel of a snub nose in my hand. It shoots amazingly well and I'm just as accurate as my Sig. Here's something that also goes into consideration for me, IF I were ever need to use and actually fire a gun in self defense, do you know what happens to that gun? It goes into police evidence until hell freezes over. I trust both the Sig and Charter to provide adequate protection but if I had to choose which one I'd rather get confiscated, it'd be the Charter. In 20 years of carrying I've never had to draw so I'm looking to keep that streak going.
and I, for some time.
A police officer had to fire twelve rounds in self defense recently. Why would a civilian be any different?
Nor have I. I have been involved four defensive gun use incidents since 1964.
Good luck with your new SIG 365.
JCooperfan1911
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What are your thoughts on the Springfield Hellcat pistol? Is 11+1 of 9mm enough for a primary carry?
I have not handled one.
I usually do not do well with micro-compact pistols.
That's up to one''s personal, informed judgment.
It's more than I carry.
Sistema1927
Member
And just because everyone loves pictures and this thread has been lacking them:
WheelGunMan
Member
That's a sweet looking old snub!Okay, another picture of an old veteran. This was a LE turn-in. It was made in the early 60's and probably has a few stories to tell.
The two guns I carry most are my LCR and my Hellcat. The Hellcat is an amazing little gun if it weren't for the weight difference I'd never carry my LCR.
The light weight snub is one of the hardest guns to master and if you're willing to put in the effort they'll do well.
Jack Flash
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I guess I should have said non LEO civilians.
Why would it matter?
The LEO is duty-bound to not retreat and to defend a third person, byt like someone who is not a sworn officer, he is limited to using only as much deadly force as is necessary for defense.
"How well does your 642 serve you in an El Presidente drill?"
I think he could do it - granted he is outstanding, and having to reload the 642 twice for most would be the tipping point for this drill - But the point is, it could be done with enough practice
For the Record - not by me, i could maybe get one reload in with a speed loader at this point in the game in 10 seconds
I like revolvers, carried one for years, but I can't honestly argue that a revolver is "better" to carry than a pistol or faster to reload if one finds themselves in a position where more than 5 (or 6) rounds is needed.
Some people like to carry a revolver, some want to carry a pistol, and some carry reloads and some don't.
The great thing about the USA, is we have choices, and we can decide for ourselves (at least so far, we will see what the future brings) what we want to carry, and what we want to believe in, etc.
I think he could do it - granted he is outstanding, and having to reload the 642 twice for most would be the tipping point for this drill - But the point is, it could be done with enough practice
For the Record - not by me, i could maybe get one reload in with a speed loader at this point in the game in 10 seconds
I like revolvers, carried one for years, but I can't honestly argue that a revolver is "better" to carry than a pistol or faster to reload if one finds themselves in a position where more than 5 (or 6) rounds is needed.
Some people like to carry a revolver, some want to carry a pistol, and some carry reloads and some don't.
The great thing about the USA, is we have choices, and we can decide for ourselves (at least so far, we will see what the future brings) what we want to carry, and what we want to believe in, etc.
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couldbeanyone
Member
Did the officer "have" to fire 12 rounds to defend himself? Were there any misses involved? Was there poor accuracy or poor tactics involved? The trooper in the Kehoe shootout emptied a full size duty gun at basically point blank range and hit nothing. Did he "have" to use the whole magazine full?
Mordechai Rahamim prevailed on two separate occasions against heavily armed terrorists with a seven shot 22 automatic. A gun that many on this forum would have you to believe would be suicide to carry for self defense. I'm pretty sure a lesser person with an 18 shot 9mm "could" have used more rounds than Mordechai used. Somebody using a certain number of rounds isn't really a huge indicator that they "had" to be used.
Maybe we should worry a bit less about the capacity or caliber of our guns and worry instead about being able to shoot and run them well. Rahamim didn't say, " I can't lead the dynamic entry on this airliner, I only have a seven shot 22", he just made the entry and took care of business.
As to the difference between LEO and concealed carrier and why it makes a difference....
Different mission. A LEO must protect the public and is generally going to be attempting to neutralize or apprehend the bad guy. As a concealed carrier you only have to cause a break in contact and exit the scenario by whatever means to "win" the gunfight. Also, whereas most concealed carriers are going to be viewed by the bad guy as a potential victim, any bad guy who makes the decision to shoot at an LEO has already made a monumental decision and is far more likely to be very determined. A bad guy can always find an easier victim if the previous one resisted. When a bad guy decides to start shooting at a cop he is committed. At that point law enforcement isn't going to just let him quit and go on his merry way.
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Old_Grouch
Member
I haven't seen anyone else in the thread try and make that argument, either.
As I have pointed out, Karl Rehn has studied this and found out that:
1. People don't shoot the snubbies well unless they train up.
2. Most concealed carry folks don't train.
I wonder if someone does a study to see if the folks who only carry the Taurus 85 are less likely to train or compete as compared to the folks carrying a more substantial semi. Given the low rate of training, we might have a floor effect.
I've said, I carry a J frame as a primary when constrained and put in lots of time with it. I realize it is basically a single opponent gun best suited for closer in usage.
couldbeanyone
Member
.
In my observations, people who don't train up, don't shoot anything well. Yes a snubbie is a little harder, but is definitely doable if you put in the effort. If you don't train up you are counting on luck to get a hit. If you were lucky you wouldn't need your gun to begin with.
That is definitely true!
Here's a good general article on revolvers by Steve Moses:
https://ftaprotect.com/blog_view.as...KUwyDc1FYGTLdByCrrUYV9RhVGZzfQyHKf6hFyg6-Yjuc
I know Steve pretty well having trained with him and taking some of his classes. His revolver trainer, Hany is a good guy.
He comes to the basic point that semis are better but learn out to run a revolver and they serve for sitting in the yard. That's true for me unless the local bear comes by! Not likely though.
https://ftaprotect.com/blog_view.as...KUwyDc1FYGTLdByCrrUYV9RhVGZzfQyHKf6hFyg6-Yjuc
I know Steve pretty well having trained with him and taking some of his classes. His revolver trainer, Hany is a good guy.
He comes to the basic point that semis are better but learn out to run a revolver and they serve for sitting in the yard. That's true for me unless the local bear comes by! Not likely though.
Jack Flash
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I'm at a loss. I was talking about a normal everyday person probably not needing more than 5 rounds in a self defense situation.
In my eyes a normal everyday person is not a LEO. I tried to make that clear.
Yes history has proved police officers need more than a 5 shot revolver. Some even have a shotgun mounted inside their patrol car, and many have an AR15, Mini 14 in the trunk. Yes...because their duty bound to protect and serve. They get calls to investigate shady things, pull vehicles over day and night not knowing who they may be pulling over. Shootings in progress, fights, domestic violence, the list could go on forever.
If in deed you are a "Normal" non law enforcement person, when we the last time you or anyone you know that is not a police officer need more than 5 rounds in a self defense situation? I'm not talking about the person who panics and does a mag dump on someone. I'm talking about the average person living an average life who needed more than 5 rounds in the process of defending them selves.
The off-duty officer, under attack by a man with a contact weapon, fired twelve shots into the single attacker before he fell. There is speculation that tend or eleven shots might have, sufficed but no one could have bet on that.
The perp had previously attacked two other people who hd been able to escape. The perp then attacked the off duty officer, who was forced to fire while backing up.
I wold have been toast. I cannot run backward as fast as did the defender, and my carry pistol has a lower capacity.
I do not know what a "normal everyday person is" once he is attacked, but using "probably not needing" as a basis for decision-making does not reflect prudent risk management.
Very true.
And therefore, both the risk of getting shot, and the likelihood of needing to employ deadly force, are higher than for the non-sworn officer.
But both the civilian and the officer are limited to using deadly force to defend themselves or third parties only.
The difference is that if an assailant departs, the officer must pursue and apprehend. He may not use deadly force to do that, but a subsequent defensive encounter may occur. That's why LEOs always carry reloads.
Why would that matter?
Hangingrock
Member
I have a S&W M640 with the serial number prefix CEN and also marked TESTED FOR+P+. Follow on production eliminated that wording as there was not an industry pressure standard for +P+. I've never utilized the M640 is a primary for concealed carry but rather a backup to the primary. When first acquired it as new, I fired it at 25, 7 and 3Yds. With that said 7Yds and under was my imposed practical limit. In my opinion there are better options for concealed carry. I do have a pocket holster for the M640 but no other holsters than that. My EDC is the S&W Shield 9X19mm.
Jack Flash
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Well probably because my very first original question was...
"When was the last time any US civilian needed more than 5 rounds in a self defense situation?"
Then you started making comments about a cop needing 12 rounds to defend his self. I was talking about regular non military, government, or LEO type people.
Yet somehow it's all the same and doesn't matter.
Why do you think the profession of someone using deadly force to defend himself would matter one whit in terms of what is required? Wouldn't the attack and the attacker be what matters?
Why is "the last time [anyone] needed more than five rounds in a self defense situation" pertinent to the thread?
You got it, most of the time.
Actually, if I defend myself and the attacker runs, and he does not have an accomplice, it's over.
I would not want to be left with an empty gun, however.
If I were a sworn officer, I would not be permitted to shoot the fleeing suspect, but I would have the duty to apprehend him.
That possibility that additional defensive shooting could be necessary would make a "topped up" firearm advisable. It is also possible that additional fire would be necessary before reloading.
Officers almost invariably carry double-column high-capacity pistols and extra magazines, for that reason.
In the case of the of-duty officer who needed twelve rounds, non of that applied. It was a single shooting incident involving one attacker who kept coming. A civilian would not have needed fewer rounds.
Both LEOs and civilians are limited to using deadly force only to defend themselves or others.
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