So here's your choices. Home defense pcc/sbr/carbine (you only get one of two choices) ...

[Jimbo80]

9mm for me in the form of an SP5. I have no interest in 300 BO.

 

[Walkalong]

I’d be fine with either.

 

[WestKentucky]

I’m going 9mm begrudgingly. I like 9mm but I don’t like 9mm PCC. The comparison leaves all things virtually equal except for bore size. .308 vs .355. 9mm is fat and wide compared to 300, which at least in theory means that it will find more resistance while pushing through a given media so that will eat inertia more quickly meaning that 9mm has less chance of over penetrating and hitting something or someone unfortunate enough to be on the other side of the media.

I really like 300blk for this, but I just can’t methodically find any way to give it the nod over 9mm if it ever actually got used for defense. For hunting, 300blk for penetration. For fast blast fun shooting 9 for cheap ammo. For any kind of accuracy I would want 300 blk for the more sleek bullet. Defense of the home or apartment, I would go 9mm… and then I would find a way to build a 32acp upper to play with too.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Well, several variables and nuances in play. I was surprised when he told me the HRTs and SRTs had converted back-to 9mm PCCs using 147s. He said there are a couple of major advantages .... lower recoil, interchangeable magazines and loads marry with their sidearms, and less weight per operator. Little bit less mag capacity but the long pistol mags take--up less space on LCEs and belts than do the 300 BLKs.

They run happy switch PCCs and they claim 9mm is more accurate and controllable in those MOUT type environments.

Evidently there is a lot of competition going-on about which PCC and it's between the SIG MCX and an H&K PCC built along the 716 style ... both in 9mm.

One of the teams is coming-in to role play hostage rescue at the SRS and I may be invited to watch the drills, I hope. Team Leader is a former mosquito wing cherry member of one of my platoons back in the day.

I was surprised that they've gone back to 9mm but evidently the Brits and Germans are doing the same thing.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I agree with @mcb. I don't see the point of a lightweight 300 BO round. With the weight restriction, I'd go 9mm.

Same here.
I voted 300 until I read the restrictions.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I’m going 9mm begrudgingly. I like 9mm but I don’t like 9mm PCC. The comparison leaves all things virtually equal except for bore size. .308 vs .355. 9mm is fat and wide compared to 300, which at least in theory means that it will find more resistance while pushing through a given media so that will eat inertia more quickly meaning that 9mm has less chance of over penetrating and hitting something or someone unfortunate enough to be on the other side of the media.

I really like 300blk for this, but I just can’t methodically find any way to give it the nod over 9mm if it ever actually got used for defense. For hunting, 300blk for penetration. For fast blast fun shooting 9 for cheap ammo. For any kind of accuracy I would want 300 blk for the more sleek bullet. Defense of the home or apartment, I would go 9mm… and then I would find a way to build a 32acp upper to play with too.

With advancements in bullet technology the 30 caliber is the same as a 35 caliber....
Wait. That only works in 9mm vs 45 debates

 

[trackskippy]

Not to throw another wrench in the works here, but here it comes.

Ive just been watching a couple of things on YouTube with 300BO and armor, and its not looking real good, even against things like Level II pistol armor, and especially with the heavier subsonic bullets. Didnt see any subsonic 150's, but the supersonic 150's did penetrate.

The main reason I no longer have a pistol caliber long gun for this use is simply because of the armor issue. If the BO is lacking as well, I dont see the point there either.

 

[BreechFace]

Hamstringing the 300BLK with the 150gr subsonic load it's a horse a piece in your scenario. And as @mcb said why 150gr subsonic, wasted case capacity when one can get just below supersonic velocities with a much higher sectional density and mass of a 220gr subsonic expanding bullet. It's like whomever thought up this scenario wants the 300BLK to fail.

110gr Barnes Tac-TX @ 2,150fps out of an 9" barreled 300 BLK will stomp anything a 9mm can put out. Obviously, supersonic and doesn't fit the criteria of subsonic application, but that is the benefit of the 300BLK, supersonic ammunition for extended ranges or plain and simple energies on target and 220gr expanding subs for close up work.

I'm wondering if the reason they chose the 150gr on the 300blk is to create a similar recoil impulse as the 147gr 9mm round for full auto accuracy and maintaining sight picture. That's always the claim to fame with the MP5 is the ability in full auto to paint the center red with controlability.

 

[BreechFace]

The big problem is there isn't much difference between pistol rounds and rifle rounds at subsonic velocities until the weight of the bullets increase dramatically over the competition.

It's just a game of pick the grain weight that is most controllable for recoil and then make the decision on how much penetration one wants by playing around with length of bullet (sectional density) with caliber size and bullet design.

 

[hso]

Seems there's no reason to throttle the .300 subsonics. We're running 200gr expanding subsonics pushed to 1100fps for suppressor as defensive loads. We're not operators carrying a "loadout" where we're concerned about weight. Mag in gun and two spares on vest should be sufficient for what gets through (notice "gets", not comes) through the reinforced fiberglass or steel doors and tries to get up the stairs.

 

[tws3b2]

If I have to take all the above into consideration.
I'll just stick to my 38spl. Thank you.

 

[Demi-human]

Well, color me confused. I guess I’m just not cool enough to understand since I’m not a Secret Squirrel, a mosquito, or a cherry?

There seems to be an aura of superior information we’re not privy to.

Nevermind the fact I couldn’t care less what teams of operators are using in shoot houses.

So, two identical bullets, save for five hundreds of an inch.
Out of an identical platform.
Why would a poll matter? Personal preference?

Is the ammunition a Red Herring?

I am semi-interested in this, I have one of the aforementioned beasties, but am unsure of the question I am answering.

To have no advantage to the cartridge chosen, makes choosing one arbitrary, and that is not how I made my choice.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Bottom line, where military and former military now in charge of security for private companies and/or nuclear facilities, etc., are concerned ... weight will always play a major factor. Then distance comes into play and PPE and opponent's PPE and everything else.

So for everyone that thought this out reasonably in this thread and understood why I presented the question to my peers here, for your input ... thank you.

For Demi-human ... I'll not return your condescension but rather try to explain it to you with the hope you'll not be so color-confused.

The parameter was simple. Home defense. Several here understand the inherent overpenetration issues where home defense is concerned. Most of us also do not expect to face home intruders decked-out in armor ... apparently your neck of the woods has intruders who wear armor so, in your case, by all means go heavy and fast ... penetrate that bad guy intruder armor. lol

So weight is big among military and ex-military filling civillian contractor security roles.

Home defense typically happens within feet, not 100s of meters.

Overpenetration is a big consideration.

Cost of training ammo is a big consideration.

Recoil and follow-ups, accuracy, reliability, ballistics, expansion, all big considerations.

Works well supressed ... has become huge for obvious reasons.

Again, bottom line (never was any secret squirrel stuff implied and everything stated, even the military jargon, was well understood by most based upon the replies) ... again, bottom line, home defense and indoor security teams, hostage rescue, room clearing in MOU environments ... all basically one and the same.

We all, traditionally benefit from military technological advancements ... civilian use comes after the military works out the kinks, historically speaking.

9mm is back. 9mm can do anything 300 BLK can do (inside offices and dwellings, according to the military) and it does it within the weight and cost parameters that the military lives-by.

Now, apparently the next step-up is going to be 8.6 BLK ... no one cares abput 300 BLK anymore in those circles. 8.6 BLK will attempt to be the 200 meter perimeter choice of champions once the trials conclude some time next year. I guess, shortly afterwards, it'll be the latest greatest do-all among civilians, who knows.

I've got a couple of expensive SIG and PSA 300 BLK platforms but, for now, my home defense firearm(s) is/are ... well, I'm going-back to a 9mm PCC with a 9mm sidearm and interchangeable mags between the two. Weight, cost, quickness ... I don't know why I fell into the 300 BLK lovefest for home defense.

But hey Demi-human ... if I'm ever burglarized or home invaded by any of those MI up-armored bad guys you must have up there ... I'm sure I'll regret my decision.

Here's the finishing math for you ...

A 9mm 147 grain cartridge weighs .6 that of a 150 grain 300 blk. Go heavier with the 300 BLK loads and, well, you do the math.

On avg a 147 high quality JHP costs half, or less, of a 300 BLK PD cartridge.

9mm allows you train more and there are plenty of 147 grain training rounds out there. Try matching your 300 BLK, any weight, expanding projectile to your training round and a reasonable cost.

I'm a 300 BLK fanboy but .... anyways.

 

[BushMaster-15]

9mm for Home Defense ,see NO real reason for anything heavier , I LIKE our home

 

[Riomouse911]

Since I have a plethora of 9mm pistols, and the parameters are rather narrow, for me it is strictly an ammo issue. I just don’t want to have to search for ammo, dies and/or components, etc.to feed another mouth (.300 BO).

Stay safe.

 

[hawg]

Given the choices I chose 9mm but both of them would be one the bottom of my list for home defense.

 

[jmorris]

Both of these are supressed.

Both are firing 145-150 grain projectiles.

Both are subsonic.

9mm. I never liked the 300 blk sub, took light bullets super before I was happy with results from it.

Then again, 9mm 145-150 gn projectiles are more likely to be designed for subsonic impact speeds than the same weight .308 cal projectiles.

9mm is still ~ a 5th of the powder charge (5x more rounds per pound of powder) and easier to suppress because of it (makes less noise/flash).

I have killed a bunch of pigs with the 110 gn Barnes TAC Tx now, and I’d take that projectile ~ 2000 fps impact velocity over any 9mm round I have ever put into one, including “major” loads, that put 147’s out of a 9mm supersonic.

I messed up my hearing long ago, unfortunately, for reasons much less important than saving anyones life, so it’s not even a consideration (if it ever would have been, if I am dead, I can’t hear anymore anyway) for me to fire a shot to save a life.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Given the choices I chose 9mm but both of them would be one the bottom of my list for home defense.

Crossbow? Double-barrel 12 ga? Adlai? Throwing axe? Shurikens?

But seriously, you do bring-up a good point.

What if the choices were a PCC in 45 ACP and 200 gr high performance JHPs vs 300 BLK in 190-210 grain whatever design projectiles?

If it's projectile weight that a few feel limited-by then ... what if?

It still goes back to weight the soldier or operator has to carry. It still goes back to training costs. It still goes back to compatibility, or lack thereof, between your carbine and your sidearm. These SRTs and RDF units are not playing that game anymore and I finally get the logic of it all.

Now, most SWAT, they could care less about overpenetration, decible noise or any of the other limitations but they're all toting 5.56 not 300 BLK and a lot of departments are about to switch back or convert to 9mm PCCs. This is all inevitable for reasons already stated.

8.6 BLK and 277 SIG Fury are the two darlings of our world now.

Everything is changing for we civilian peons and serfs.

 

[hawg]

Crossbow? Double-barrel 12 ga? Adlai? Throwing axe? Shurikens? But seriously, you do bring-up a good point.

My go to home defense is a 20 inch pump loaded with 00 buck. If six rounds of 00 isn't enough I'll go to a 1911 in .45 ACP loaded with 230 grain lead SWC's.

 

[Demi-human]

First, let me apologize for cutting to the quick.
I am sorry for being short with you. It is easier to convey what we need to if we don’t have to worry about hurt feelings, but I could have been more cordial. It isn’t in my nature, but I’ll make an effort. Tough guys have feelings too, I guess.

Please try not to read emotion into my post. I promise I don’t care that much because my choice is made. I don’t have a budget to just switch Willy-nilly because someone in Texas didn’t shoot through one more board.
(That probably isn’t right either, but I don’t know how else to put it.)

So for everyone that thought this out reasonably in this thread and understood why I presented the question to my peers here, for your input ... thank you.

For Demi-human ... I'll not return your condescension but rather try to explain it to you with the hope you'll not be so color-confused.

But then you did. You even did it before you answered. Sigh.

Most of us also do not expect to face home intruders decked-out in armor ... apparently your neck of the woods has intruders who wear armor so, in your case, by all means go heavy and fast ... penetrate that bad guy intruder armor. lol

Is this a laughing matter?
Haughtiness is fine at the Bar, but this is a somber discussion. I thought, which is why we should talk plainly with the least amount of acronyms as possible. An SRT is a Dodge, and an HRT is a Chevy to 93% of humans, though I can extrapolate from this conversation it is SWAT-esque.

So weight is big among military and ex-military filling civillian contractor security roles.

I thought this was about HD? You say so in the pseudo-poll you want everyone to vote 9mm in.

We all, traditionally benefit from military technological advancements ... civilian use comes after the military works out the kinks, historically speaking.

I do not disagree. So far they are carrying…5.56.

9mm is back. 9mm can do anything 300 BLK can do (inside offices and dwellings, according to the military) and it does it within the weight and cost parameters that the military lives-by.

I am not military, just a fan.

But hey Demi-human ... if I'm ever burglarized or home invaded by any of those MI up-armored bad guys you must have up there ... I'm sure I'll regret my decision.

You probably would. In addition to increasing numbers of criminals being found in possession of body armor in the south east of the state, we wear winter gear here 8 months of the year. Weren’t you just talking about opponent PPE? That’s armor.
Extra layers need extra penetration. Hubris is dangerous.
Who do you think is buying up all of PSA’s Draco’s? Detroit!

Here's the finishing math for you ...

Condescension.

A 9mm 147 grain cartridge weighs .6 that of a 150 grain 300 blk.

And your math was wrong anyway.
Comically so.
There is not half the amount of brass in a nine. Bullet same, primer same. Powder, over TWICE as much! At 13 grains it would take 583 rounds to make a pound of difference.

I’ll take the reliability of Eugene’s impingement of gas over a blow back carbine’s want to remove magazines with OOB.

It still goes back to weight the soldier or operator has to carry.

I don’t need to carry it in my house, the location of your thread.

Now, most SWAT, they could care less about overpenetration, decible noise or any of the other limitations but they're all toting 5.56 not 300 BLK and a lot of departments are about to switch back or convert to 9mm PCCs.

Non-sequitur. They don’t care about what we are talking about but they are switching anyway? Why do we care?
(I do care that the group of firearms users that shoot the most, and miss the most, don’t care about over penetration. They probably haven’t surveyed the local as well as I have to determine shooting lanes. Scary.)

Everything is changing for we civilian peons and serfs.

Not this one. I’m not condescending, I flat out disagree with you.
All things equal, a bigger bullet is a better one. You say so here.

8.6 BLK and 277 SIG Fury are the two darlings of our world now.

Though I would also argue this assertion…

Over penetration is a consideration, it isn’t the only thing. Not even a very big thing. Bullets that will reliably stop inside a body won’t do the damage I want done. The ones that are effective may go all the way through. I wager it’s the misses that are more deadly, having not passed through a fluid medium, not over penetration.



I gathered what you were playing at, though I did ask for confirmation too roughly, my apologies. But I am glad I cut to the chase, it cuts down on the useless jargon and not very precise name dropping.

So, now we have it, finally. Whew.
Over penetration.

“Will a bullet with five hundredths of an inch wider diameter penetrate less than a bullet of the same weight?”

Math says, “Yes.”

Practical Magic says, “How would you be able to infer a difference through the environmental vagaries and situational variations?”

Some of us who don’t know every single military acronym are interested in cartridge and bullet design and use. We have gone through great pains to choose an effective form of defense personal to ourselves and situations.
It’s going to take more than unsubstantiated claims and hair breadth math differences to get us to redo all that work.

Since I, ostensibly, chose wrong three years ago, because I get to choose my ammunition, I’ll just keep my choice to myself.

You don’t have to show you’re right.
Steel sharpens steel. Prove why I’m wrong.

I took you for full face value, someone that told me everything I knew about momentum and terminal ballistics was wrong, and you just dismissed me.
Why not try and teach me?




I may even stop calling it “The Effete Nine”.
Maybe.

 

[Demi-human]

-Demi-human- <Looks at 32 Auto in pocket.>

Demi-human: “Well! I guess you just got a whole lot more tactical little buddy!”

 

[bearcreek]

It still goes back to weight the soldier or operator has to carry. It still goes back to training costs. It still goes back to compatibility, or lack thereof, between your carbine and your sidearm. These SRTs and RDF units are not playing that game anymore and I finally get the logic of it all.

You keep mentioning weight. In your OP though, you said that these weapons we're choosing between are within 8 oz of each other. Change your mind?

 

[anothernewb]

reading home defense as physically inside the home. 9mm. Subguns proved to be very effective in ww2 and old Uziel Gal and the IDF certainly proved they are useful in CQB.

 

[uuolf]

300 blk... For it's slightly higher sectional density (per the ops required ammo) and because I like a shoulder for headspaceing and feeding.

 

[trackskippy]

In the past, I used to use my MP5 for just this purpose, short, handy, and controllable, and it was great for that use, until the shorter rifle caliber guns came along and made more sense, and for a number of reasons. Not to mention the equity lost if I had to use the MP5 and it was taken.

Just keep in mind too, the advantage to the pistol caliber SMG's, is the "instantaneous multiple hits" you get from a burst, much like a shotgun with buck.

Unfortunately for us peons these days, access to SMG's, and the lack of any realistic training with them, is basically nonexistent, so its a moot point.