So I went to pay my cable bill and saw a no gun sign.

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Trolly Square Shooting

"Just like the Trolley Square shooting here (which had those same signs up) I will not trust a security guard with my safety. When Trolley Square happened the guards ran away. But....But...they had signs up! How can a crazy person NOT obey the signs!?!?!?!?"

..I was there. (I live in the Ogden area). If it hadn't been for the off duty Ogden police officer being there and ultimately gunning the shooter down it would have been a very different story, as gruesome as it already is.

That was a scary experience.. and also the reason I now have my permit.
 
I don't believe I have ever paid a cable bill in person, or any other utility bill for that matter. I have always mailed them in, or more recently they are automatically deducted from my checking account.
__________________
bob
I don't have any bills deducted electronicly.
I live less than a block away from my local city hall complex. I can go there to pay most of my utility bills. They will take my electric bill, sewer bill, cable tv/internet bill and even my AT&T Wireless cellphone bill. There's no point in writing checks for and mailing all of those individually when I can drop them all off at one time. Some stores will also take these types of bills at their Customer Service desks.
The problem (not really a problem for me) is Louisiana law says I can't open carry in a government building such as city hall. Most of the time I just conceal carry while I'm there doing my business and nobody knows any different. :cool:
 
Who wins, who actually loses

Here's something (public domain) -

Who Wins, Who Actually Loses,
When Firearms Owners And Businesses Are Banned From the Premises?

By

T. Dave Gowan, Ph.D.



Recently, one major U.S. bank toyed with the idea of closing all its accounts with customers who owned firearms-related businesses. Another chain of banks, and several businesses, established policies which banned concealed carry of firearms on their premises. Other businesses have adopted spokespersons or advertising actors who have openly spoken out against firearms owners. Some businesses have allowed fringe groups to put up kiosks or pamphlets on their premises opposing gun ownership. Many of these quickly withdrew or denied the policies in the face of strong and immediate pressure from firearms owners.

Who gains by such ban policies, and who loses? Are these policies effective in any way? Surely they garner publicity in the newspapers, magazines and TV reports. Anti-gun customers are happy, but they don't take action against the businesses because of it. The newspapers gain a little in stature when a business supports their views. Do these business policies prevent any firearms-related crime? Or do they affect only law-abiding customers?

Let's examine two scenarios, those of a citizen who carries a concealed weapon with a permit, and a criminal who carries a gun (certainly without a permit). A bank posts a sign on the doors of every branch saying "No Firearms Allowed". A customer approaches the door. She is a normally law-abiding citizen who carries a concealed weapon with a permit for good reasons; she has been mugged in the past. She sees the sign on the door. Does she enter? No, but she realizes she can't do business with the bank if she can't enter the premises. This time, she removes the firearm to her car, enters the bank and does business, and as soon as possible moves her savings, checking, and investment accounts to another bank. Later that day, two men drive up near the bank door, and double park with the engine running. One emerges with a concealed firearm and a hooded sweatshirt and sunglasses and approaches the door. He sees the No Firearms Allowed sign, and says to himself, Gee, I can't carry my gun in there. I guess we'll have to go down the street and rob that other bank. Do they leave and go rob the other bank? The robber who reads the sign laughs to himself, robs the bank anyway, scares 15 customers in the bank, then brags to his friends afterwards about the stupid sign the bank put in the door. Do robbers target businesses with these signs in the door over ones which have no stated policy against firearms owners? You betcha. It's safer to target a business for robbery which has a "No concealed carry" sign in the door than one which doesn't.

The irony is that in the attempt to make themselves look good to the liberal media, corporations create self-defeating policies: Many of the desirable customers they want to keep take their business elsewhere because of the policy – and they tell other customers about it who also leave. And the people you'd rather not have on the premises of your business aren't deterred by the policy at all, they're actually encouraged to visit. Another irony is that when the media report the new policy, more firearms owners and criminals read the news. Customers leave, criminals arrive to victimize the business and its customers.

Who is actually deterred by the sign? And how much are they deterred? Certainly only customers are deterred. The firearm-owning or -carrying customer takes his business elsewhere, and reports his experiences to other firearms owners via his club or state shooting association email listserver. The listserver forwards a copy of the message to its members and to 49 other state shooting associations. Members of these associations read the message and forward them to shooting clubs, hunting clubs, social clubs and friends, who forward them in turn.

Who responds negatively to businesses discriminating against firearms owners and businesses? All gun owners do. Liberal newspapers portray NRA members as plaid-shirted, grass-stem-sucking, kill-everything country hicks. The newspapers are naïve and they lie. The establishment media's contempt for gun owners is so intense that the veracity of their stories are of little import. Actually, the ranks of the NRA include the complete spectrum of U.S. society in approximately the same ratios, but are weighted more heavily towards service veterans, street-level police men and women, and people who traditionally hunted and carried firearms in daily life--normal, law-abiding people. They include government bureaucrats and managers, teachers, lawyers, bankers, and (frequently secretly, as here in Tallahassee) newspaper staff and editors. They also include investors. NRA members are heavily registered to vote, sensitive to encroachment on their rights, and they vote and they boycott in great numbers. They don't necessarily take their marching orders from the NRA, but they take heed when NRA announces political candidate rankings and they forward the news. NRA members know that many politicians that want to ban guns also own them and carry them privately for self-protection.

If your business puts up the ban sign, they won't be dealing with many NRA members --interestingly, most NRA sympathizers are not NRA members. These include the most of the large mass of Americans who hunt and fish. Firearms owners are extremely well-connected, with web pages, clubs, businesses organizations, associations and grassroots groups all tied together by an array of email listservers and newsletters which spread the word. It's a serious misjudgment, that the media make, in blaming things on the NRA, when it's actually firearms owners and other local organizations who make the moves. Firearms owners also belong to organizations like Gun Owners of America, the Second Amendment Foundation, Gun Owners' Action League, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, the Lawyers' Second Amendment Society, Women Against Gun Control, the Constitution Society, the Fully Informed Jury Association, many state shooting associations and clubs. The NRA provides training, sanctioning for competitive shooting events, political reports, and simply connects them all the groups and hunters together with news.

What motivates firearms owners? They are cognizant of a constitutional right. They grew up hunting and don't want to lose their quality of life. They are aware the police won't be there when they are needed, but will show up to take the reports later. They know the police avoid the responsibility for protecting individuals and that the Supreme Court has allowed this. They know they increasingly have to rely on themselves for self-protection, so many carry weapons, with or without a permit. They know that the cities with the highest rates of gun control have the highest rates of serious gun crime because criminals and gangsters don't obey the laws--and that this is now being reflected in emerging crime trends in Australia and England, where firearms were recently confiscated from citizens who were law-abiding enough to turn theirs in. They know that where carry of firearms is allowed crime rates slump, and that firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens frequently save lives and deter crime, though these facts are never reported by the media.

Many firearms owners have read the small 1998 book, More Guns Less Crime, by Professor John Lott. This book examined the relationship between government (not NRA's) statistics on serious crime rates, and concealed carry laws in each state, and demonstrated that concealed carry permitting decreases crime rates. What happened when "shall-issue carry legislation" passed in a few states, allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons? Did crime soar, as the nut gun-banners had predicted? No. Nowhere. In Florida, the first state with a good-sized criminal class to pass a "shall-issue" carry law, the murder and serious crime rates roared downhill instead. Trends in all other states with "shall-issue" carry permitting have consistently been the same. Those who work for the news media fail to understand or deliberately ignore an important fact: In America, violent crime rates decrease when gun ownership rates increase.

Are there business opportunities in accommodating firearms owners? There are many. Firearms owners experience discrimination by uninformed businesses every day. Some is inadvertent, some is deliberate. Such discrimination is always reported immediately and attacked by firearms owners, and opportunities are created for competing businesses by firearms owners looking for substitutes. Any business facing tight competition from many others in a well-defined market can expand its market share by taking advantage of the niche created by firearms owners looking for services. One such corporation is Wal-Mart, which provides many a citizen an introduction to sport shooting, hunting and competitive shooting; the chain sells sporting firearms and supplies, and firearms owners and their families and friends are particularly loyal to the corporation.

A good example of a business niche needing filling is in the parcel delivery business. One major parcel service tacked on unnecessary extra charges for shipping gunpowder (used by competitive shooters and hunters for legal purposes) and firearms. Other shipping companies have taken advantage and followed suit. Then the major company began requiring shipped firearms to have special labels on them. This had the effect of identifying them to criminals among their employees, who removed the parcels and took them home. In the face of mounting losses of parcels containing firearms, and higher insurance costs, the company instead charged higher shipping fees to customers and required the parcels be shipped by the most costly means. Instead of addressing the real problem, the companies attacked their own customers. Faced with follow-on by other shipping companies, firearms owners around the US are looking for a single parcel shipper willing to support firearms owners and businesses. All a business has to do is announce the fact and the customers will come.

Examples of businesses with clear biases against firearms owners include many news magazines, newspapers, shippers, banks, and one major computer seller. Firearms owners are looking for the chance to embrace new companies providing these services. Do you need new customers? All your company has to do is announce that you want them. Send the message, We Believe in the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, to a shooting association listserver, like FSSA-Talk at tfn.net (insert the @ character and remove the spaces).

The author specifically requests that LEOs convey this important information to their local businesses.

This article is Copyright 2000 in the Public Domain by T. Dave Gowan, No Rights Reserved. Use it however you want. It has been published before as Public Domain in Directed Fire, and again in a different format concerning Citibank with Co-Author Kopel in National Review Online.
 
...not all states have protection of biz owners... even then, all it does it stop a lawsuit...

This can work the other way as well.
If the security is not armed and runs away, I would sue them for not securing their area which they banned me from protecting myself.
I never go to places which have these signs.
I bring my money somewhere else!
 
Those signs are invisible to me, unless its a tavern or somewhere I'm going to get searched I don't worry about it.
 
Threads like this just give the other side more ammo to use against us...

Man up, show some respect, obey thier signs....

If you can't tell I am actually a big supporter of laws like tx 30.06 law. I beleave a well made and vizable sign is just as good as a verbal notification...

I am all for people being legally armed, but I also strongly feel that a sign forbiding an object from some ones place of biz, should have the wieght of law. I see it as a complete disprespect to disreguard a sign...



what, are you running for office or something?
 
Some national chains may require a sign, but the local manager's attitude may be different. The unspoken rule seems to be that those signs are intended for illegal carriers with criminal intent in carrying. Sometimes you have to make decisions based on a justification of necessity. Personally I would like to see a sign that welcomed legal carriers. I think it would have an effect on armed robbers like free donuts for cops at the donut shop.

Unholstering a pistol and hiding it in the vehicle in the parking lot to enter a place with a "no guns" sign, is not safe for a number of reasons: handling the gun increases the chance of an accident, the gun may be seen and alarm folks unnecessarily, the gun may be seen by a thief and get stolen while you are inside, etc. This is a case where following the sign (even though it may or may not have the force of law depending on jurisdiction), is a greater evil than ignoring it. One could say, if one wanted to be snarky, If you cannot concealed carry without detection, you should not be carrying concealed in the first place. But that could get you in trouble
 
So its ok for you to have rights, but not them?
Who's attacking their rights?

They don't have a right to my business. I don't have to give them my money. If I don't like the way they do business, I have a perfect right to go to a competitor.
 
I beleave a well made and vizable sign is just as good as a verbal notification.
Fine but the sign is not asking me to leave. It just says no guns, which bears no legality in Va
Maybe that's the way it is in Virginia but it is certainly not the case in Minnesota
No its not that way in VA
Books are great for fiction and history they do nothing for current events like weather and local news you would have been better off by saying radio but I have an answer for that too.
Switch to sattelite
I need a clear line of sight to the south west. Both my neighbor and I have too many trees blocking the satellite and we are unwilling to part with them.
You have a choice rather you vist thier place of biz. While there you are thier "guest", you would not go into some ones home and do something you knew they forbid. Why would you do it for some ones place of biz?
a place of public business is diffrent from a priviate home. I dont just go walking into private homes. Public business must realize that the public is formed by all walks of life and all must be respected. They dont have to like all of them but they should respect them.
I would also like to point out, having a gun, does not equal selfdefence. If you really beleave the only way you can defend yourself is with a gun, chances are it will be useless. Its not the hardware, its the software.
I agree with that but the 2A does not mention breaing guns for self defense does it? No. it protects the right to carry a gun no matter what the reason is.
and maybe OSHA... trust me, even something as small as a worker cutting themself with a razor knife, is a very, very big headache.
Employees are a diffrent subject than a paying customer. Sure there is liability for the employee and their actions, but the business is not responsible for the customers actions.
I also strongly feel that a sign forbiding an object from some ones place of biz, should have the wieght of law. I see it as a complete disprespect to disreguard a sign.
Thats great I respect your opinion. But its not the law here therefore your opinion means nothing in my case.
 
I have to swap between a double action Smith and a Berreta 92FS based on the signs.
 
If they come to my house, they'll find a "NO CABLE" sign.
 
Let's be very clear about a few things.

1) The OP is in Virginia.
2) In Virginia a "no firearms" sign has no legal weight and if you are caught the only LEGAL recourse a business has is to ask you to leave.
3) If you do not immediately leave you can be charged with trespassing (which can snowball into larger issues).

The OP should report this business to the VCDL for action. He should also draft a letter to corporate HQ regarding this policy and why they will lose his business if the signs are not removed.
 
The OP should report this business to the VCDL for action. He should also draft a letter to corporate HQ regarding this policy and why they will lose his business if the signs are not removed
On the VCDL good point. I work with a guy that has delt with them in the past. He said as there are no words and it is not on the door and it is in the lobby well away from the door, there is likely little to nothing the VCDL can do about it. I do plan on contacting them today by email. As far as a letter to the company goes, I am not very good at such things but I will see what I can come up with.
Thanks again good points.
 
2) In Virginia a "no firearms" sign has no legal weight and if you are caught the only LEGAL recourse a business has is to ask you to leave.

Why does the sign have no legal weight in Virginia? What about other signs?

No shirt, no shoes...no service.
No trespassing.
No loitering.
etc?

Sorry if I missed something earlier in the thread.
 
Why does the sign have no legal weight in Virginia?
Because there is no recourse listed in Virginia law (in other words there is no "punishment" attached to violating a "no-firearms" sign).

The only charge in the code that can be brought forth in relation is for trespass and in Virginia trespass REQUIRES that you issue at least one "vacate the premises" warning (verbally or by sign) before any action may be taken. So if you disobey and refuse to leave you would be getting charged for refusing to leave (trespass) not for having a firearm in violation of policy.

No shirt, no shoes...no service.
No trespassing.
No loitering.
etc?

No shirt, no shoes...no service - Is an announcement of business policy, certainly nothing with force-of-law behind it (in Virginia). Again the best a business could do is tell someone to leave and then switch to trespass if the person doesn't go.

No loitering - same as above.

When you do a little legal research it's astounding how many "official" warning signs have no legal weight behind them at all.

Having said that, my own personal policy is to obey the posted policy (policy, not law) and take my business elsewhere as well as writing the parent companies to express my dismay.
 
Thank you. I have always respected their policies, taken my business elsewhere and notified them and their corporate office. I also have made a card similar to our friends in Ohio with the No Guns = No $$$ that I pass along.
 
I figure about half the time the signs are just to make the warm fuzzy people feel even more warm and fuzzy.

"Come on in, warm fuzzy people! There are no evil, noisy, clanky, hard metal GUHNNS in this store to get you all hurted and owied. There, see? The sign prohibits them!"

And of course, everyone knows that the most effective sign of all would be a stern warning:

"Robbers keep out! No robberies allowed!"

I mean, a really stern sign.

Then all the robbers would write them letters saying that they were going to rob the store, but saw the sign, and would they please take the sign down so they could rob it the next time they dropped by.
 
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Their property, their rules.

I guess it's OK for you to violate their property rights - if it's convenient for you. Anyone else's rights are less important than a 1st class stamp.

Since you believe that their property rights are not worth a 1st class stamp, what value would it be fair for them to place on your rights?

Mike
 
Their property, their rules.

I guess it's OK for you to violate their property rights - if it's convenient for you. Anyone else's rights are less important than a 1st class stamp.

Since you believe that their property rights are not worth a 1st class stamp, what value would it be fair for them to place on your rights?

Mike
hmmm.......well your statement is nice and all but I have the law on my side. Aparently the only right they have in this case is to ask me to leave which if they ever do I will be more than happy to. You cant put a value on rights when your right. I supose it comes down to technicality of law.

Lets say I dont like cigaretts. I put up no smoking signs. do I have the right to be angrey because a person comes in with a pack of smokes in their pocket? They are not smoking they just have the tools to smoke.

1. how do I know they have the cigaretts unless they volunteer the info or I search them.
2.they have violated no local state or federal law.
3.there is nothing I can do but ask them to leave since there are no broken laws.
4. I am now on the chopping block for law suits because I asked some one to leave based on discrimination because they are smokers and operating with in the law and I kicked them out based on them being smokers.
 
Smoking is not a protected class... infact it is the 1st question on my apps for new employees. If its checked yes, the app gets shreaded. In my line of work, apperance is every thing. Honestly, do you want to let some one into your home, that you don't know, have never meet before today, that smells? Rather it be form smoking, solvents, BO, sewage... what ever. I don't. It is also a safety factor as well. We deal with some very flamable chemicals.



I Also have a few people in my family that have breathing probs, and even the smell of cigs can make them start coughing.
 
Tab I am not talking about employees or letting folks in your home. I am talking about a place of business where you post no smoking signs at the door and a person comes in not smoking but has cigaretts on them.
 
Smoking is not a protected class...

What is a "protected class?" Read below and tell me where the 14th Amendment authorizes the creation of a class of citizen that has more protection than other classes.

Amendment XIV

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
(My emphasis)
 
Been awhile but in MI they needed to post a legal size sign on the door and they were responsible for your welfare while you were unarmed. Many places took there signs down after the found out they were legaly bound to protect you.
 
Many places took there signs down after the found out they were legaly bound to protect you.
And that's exactly as it should be. Businesses are responsibile for the safety of the customers they attract. And if they actually deprive the customers of the means of protecting themselves, they should assume an absolute liability if a customer is injured or killed by a criminal.
 
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