So I went to pay my cable bill and saw a no gun sign.
- Thread starter Eric F
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dmazur
Member
I hoping to see legislation that permits businesses to post "no guns" signs if they assume all liability for customer's safety. If they don't want that liability, they can take down the silly signs.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Private parties are held to a higher standard than the government. For example, if a private individual or firm were running Social Security, they'd go to jail for running a pyramid scheme.
It is well established that a private company has a duty to protect the customers it attracts -- from crimials, accidents, and so on.
Up Date.........not good!
So I went to the cable company yesterday morning and handed the manager a letter explaining my thoughts on the no gun sign. He didnt read it right away and I left.
At 2pm yesterday a cable technition shows up with a green slip(disconect notice) he said usually when they send these things out your late on your bill but I dont have a collection notice for you call the office. I called the 800 number and spoke to a lady in guam of all places. She couldnt give me any answers. I called back and got a person in the Philipines this time, no results.wife called(cell phone) today and said they just left the house with the converter box and all the equipment. So now I have no house phone no cable and no internet at home. I called just now and got a guy in Montana he says my bill is fine but there was a note saying I requested a disconect(which I did not) I said no I didn't put my stuff back and he says they cant for 3 months company policy. Great! NOW WHAT DO I DO?
So I went to the cable company yesterday morning and handed the manager a letter explaining my thoughts on the no gun sign. He didnt read it right away and I left.
At 2pm yesterday a cable technition shows up with a green slip(disconect notice) he said usually when they send these things out your late on your bill but I dont have a collection notice for you call the office. I called the 800 number and spoke to a lady in guam of all places. She couldnt give me any answers. I called back and got a person in the Philipines this time, no results.wife called(cell phone) today and said they just left the house with the converter box and all the equipment. So now I have no house phone no cable and no internet at home. I called just now and got a guy in Montana he says my bill is fine but there was a note saying I requested a disconect(which I did not) I said no I didn't put my stuff back and he says they cant for 3 months company policy. Great! NOW WHAT DO I DO?
dmazur
Member
If it's not a foul-up (which companies are good at, especially when using foreign-based customer support services), they aren't playing fair. Let's see, we don't like this, so we will just disconnect him and see if he changes his tune.
Apparently you have to be willing to back up your complaint. That is, at businesses which display the sign, you have to withdraw your funds if it's a bank, and never buy anything there if it's a retail establishment.
While it would be very unlikely a bank would retaliate as the cable company has done, you would be in a better position if you 1) withdraw funds, and 2) explain why you have done it.
Sorry to hear about the cable company. They are wrong, like a bank I used to use, and too stupid (and arrogant) to understand that they're wrong.
Apparently you have to be willing to back up your complaint. That is, at businesses which display the sign, you have to withdraw your funds if it's a bank, and never buy anything there if it's a retail establishment.
While it would be very unlikely a bank would retaliate as the cable company has done, you would be in a better position if you 1) withdraw funds, and 2) explain why you have done it.
Sorry to hear about the cable company. They are wrong, like a bank I used to use, and too stupid (and arrogant) to understand that they're wrong.
Since you are a VA resident, call the state corporation commission:
http://www.scc.virginia.gov/ and complain. They routinely kick the crap out of the cable, electric, and telephone companies for screwing customers; they'll get your cable back without a 3 month wait.
Also contact your state senator (not VA's senator, but the senator you send to Richmond). You won't actually get to speak to the senator him/herself, but the staffer will be helpful. The staffer will be more than happy to send a letter on behalf of the senator to the cable company.
ZeSpectre
Member
Oops. Don't hand it to the local office, send a certified copy to the CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS. But since that's already done...
First, don't waste your time with anyone who can't say "YES" and solve your problem immediately. Ask the person on the line, "do you have the authority to say "yes" and solve my problem?" If they say no immediately move on to the next person in the chain.
Get all of your paperwork (receipts, bills, etc) and facts in order with multiple copies available then go over the heads of your local people and go straight to Corporate Headquarters. Also contact the state corporation commission at http://www.scc.virginia.gov/ (edit: apparently Grey Manna and I think alike).
Also, contact Philip Van Cleave or Bruce Jackson at the VCDL. They are gonna LOVE this story! (you ARE a VCDL member...right?)
Finally, line up alternatives. As good as Comcast tries to make their "bundle" sound, this sort of power over my communications is precisely why I'll NEVER buy into their hype. Too many eggs in one basket.
Well it just so happens I put the state senators mothers christmas lights up on her house. I know the guy but heve resisted the urge to talk to him about anything political. I think I will call the state corperate comission though. Also reconsidering cutting down some trees for a satellite now.
tinygnat219
Member
Eric F.
One thing you might want to do is try and get on the Senator's schedule. Make an appointment, bring some friends and see what transpires.
One thing you might want to do is try and get on the Senator's schedule. Make an appointment, bring some friends and see what transpires.
bogie
Member
Dish.
Mount it away from the house if you have to.
Do not support the enemy.
And find out the manager's name, and give the local kids lots of toilet paper on halloween, with his address.
Mount it away from the house if you have to.
Do not support the enemy.
And find out the manager's name, and give the local kids lots of toilet paper on halloween, with his address.
Superlite27
Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
- Messages
- 712
This has the potential to be a GOOD thing. I believe the greatest thing we can do for gun owners is make carrying a gun or ownership of a gun NO BIG DEAL. How do we do this? We become visible as responsible, everyday citizens. When we do this, our guns become responsible, everyday things.
In my opinion, I would use this as an opportunity to shed light on the discrimination and malfeasance practiced by anti-gunners. This would bring visibility to our cause. I would call a local news crew and tell them, "Hey, this company has an anti-gun policy, and when I questioned it, they unfairly and underhandedly ended service." Knowing what a great state for gun ownership Virginia is, I'll bet this gets around. Not what this company probably wants.
I would become very vocal and outspoken about how this was handled. We have to do so to stand up for our rights. We have to keep pressure on ALL anti-gun organizations or else we'll never be accepted by the general public as what we gun owners are:
responsible, everday citizens.
In my opinion, I would use this as an opportunity to shed light on the discrimination and malfeasance practiced by anti-gunners. This would bring visibility to our cause. I would call a local news crew and tell them, "Hey, this company has an anti-gun policy, and when I questioned it, they unfairly and underhandedly ended service." Knowing what a great state for gun ownership Virginia is, I'll bet this gets around. Not what this company probably wants.
I would become very vocal and outspoken about how this was handled. We have to do so to stand up for our rights. We have to keep pressure on ALL anti-gun organizations or else we'll never be accepted by the general public as what we gun owners are:
responsible, everday citizens.
Warlokke
Member
If private business owners want their private property rights respected (their ability under the law to not allow lawful concealed carry), while denying private citizens their second amendment rights (primarily in this case ccw for self-defense purposes), then they should incur an obligation (be liable) to provide protection for that citizen while they are on the private business owners property, specifically the area he has posted that denies the private citizen his or her second amendment right.
You can't have it both ways. In order to respect both the right to private property and the right to self-defense you have to respect both, and self-defense is primarily about the right to defend your ultimate private property, which is yourself (your person).
Liability is what you incur when you limit or restrict or violate someone else's rights.
Just like a gun owner that enters a store that is lawfully posted prohibiting carrying firearms is liable if he knowingly/willingly violates that policy and as a result someone is injured or killed he is liable, so also the store owner is liable if as a result of his no firearm policy one of his customers is injured or killed.
Remember, civil court is not criminal court - the rules of evidence are different, and in some cases, the rules of proof are different. It doesn't matter what the state law reads about this, civil courts interpret those laws differently in many cases from criminal courts, and those civil court decisions result in precedent established by case law, which is just as binding on people as any other kind of law.
Just my .02 on the subject.....
You can't have it both ways. In order to respect both the right to private property and the right to self-defense you have to respect both, and self-defense is primarily about the right to defend your ultimate private property, which is yourself (your person).
Liability is what you incur when you limit or restrict or violate someone else's rights.
Just like a gun owner that enters a store that is lawfully posted prohibiting carrying firearms is liable if he knowingly/willingly violates that policy and as a result someone is injured or killed he is liable, so also the store owner is liable if as a result of his no firearm policy one of his customers is injured or killed.
Remember, civil court is not criminal court - the rules of evidence are different, and in some cases, the rules of proof are different. It doesn't matter what the state law reads about this, civil courts interpret those laws differently in many cases from criminal courts, and those civil court decisions result in precedent established by case law, which is just as binding on people as any other kind of law.
Just my .02 on the subject.....
What exactly did your letter say? Did it in any way suggest that you did not want to do business with or support a company that posted "No Guns" signs?
Could your letter reasonably have been interpreted as a request to terminate your relationship with the cable company? Could it have been read as threatening, so they might not wish to have you as a customer?
Mike
Southern6er
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- Sep 25, 2007
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- 47
I think they did you a favor, honestly. Just chop a few trees, get some firewood, make your wife a nice gazebo where the trees used to be. Call it good.
Mount it low enough so that if it snows there, you can easily get snow off the dish (or get one of those heater elements to do it!).
I'd follow up with a letter to cable HQ with a copy of what you gave the manager and say thanks for confirming why I now have your competitor. Whether it was them pulling the plug because of your gun issue or them just screwing up and thinking it was a disconnect request, they just proved why you don't want them as a service provider.
And pass the word on out.
I'll never put phone, TV, Internet on one bill for this very reason.
Mount it low enough so that if it snows there, you can easily get snow off the dish (or get one of those heater elements to do it!).
I'd follow up with a letter to cable HQ with a copy of what you gave the manager and say thanks for confirming why I now have your competitor. Whether it was them pulling the plug because of your gun issue or them just screwing up and thinking it was a disconnect request, they just proved why you don't want them as a service provider.
And pass the word on out.
I'll never put phone, TV, Internet on one bill for this very reason.
ONE MORE UPDATE:
So I went out to lunch yesterday and saw a friend(city councilman) I told him about what had happened. He didnt say much and at 5pm a technitian from Charter cable came out and set me back up out of the blue and said sorry for the confusion. I called my friend back and asked what the deal was. He just said he made a phone call....thats it.
I will be cutting some trees next week and getting a dish any way but at least I have tv internet and phone again at home.
So I went out to lunch yesterday and saw a friend(city councilman) I told him about what had happened. He didnt say much and at 5pm a technitian from Charter cable came out and set me back up out of the blue and said sorry for the confusion. I called my friend back and asked what the deal was. He just said he made a phone call....thats it.
I will be cutting some trees next week and getting a dish any way but at least I have tv internet and phone again at home.
Mannlicher
Member
you saw a no gun sign? So? I never pay attention to those. 
ZeSpectre
Member
Well at least you are back up and running.
Now my question is (and nobody here has to answer, just something to think about). Was the sacrifice worth it? Would it have been worth it had your connections not been restored?
For me the answer would have been a resounding yes (but I'm a stubborn cuss that way). For my wife, she would have been really REALLY upset and she's not that hot on RKBA so it would not have been worth it.
Now my question is (and nobody here has to answer, just something to think about). Was the sacrifice worth it? Would it have been worth it had your connections not been restored?
For me the answer would have been a resounding yes (but I'm a stubborn cuss that way). For my wife, she would have been really REALLY upset and she's not that hot on RKBA so it would not have been worth it.
dmazur
Member
I'd like to know, too, if anyone has anything close to an answer to this.
As far as I know, there isn't much of a track record to support this.
So far, it seems business owners are more afraid of lawsuits related to OSHA compliance for a safe workplace, and they believe the "Well we have a no guns policy" will provide some legal protection. This needs to change. When someone is injured on business premises with a "no guns" sign, that individual needs to bring suit as was described, to try to establish liability on the business owner's part.
We need to turn this around.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The principal is called (in some states at least) "assumed liability." If for example a customer falls on a crack in the side walk in front of your business and is injured, they can sue you -- you are assumed to be liable to find such dangerous things and take steps to make them safe (even if it is to simply notify the city repairs are needed.)
It's the same principle that allows you to sue an airline if the plane crashes and you wife is killed, or a motel if you are injured by a fire, burglary and so on.
The idea is, you attract people to your store, airline, or motel and you are responsible for their safety. That is especially true if you did something -- like ignored complaints about the sidewalk, skipped maintenance procedures, or didn't provide emergency or security lighting and some form of security -- that made the situation worse.
Taurus 66
Member
I once saw a sign that said, "Quit Breathing". I hope to come across a sign very soon that says, "Breathe", 'cause I can't keep this up forever. 
Sorry didnt see the question about my letter.
My letter simply stated that the sign was not valid and it really didnt make sense to have it all the way up at the customer service windows if they didnt want guns in the building. It was not rude and it certianly did not suggest I would cut my business off with them if it were not removed right a way.
My letter simply stated that the sign was not valid and it really didnt make sense to have it all the way up at the customer service windows if they didnt want guns in the building. It was not rude and it certianly did not suggest I would cut my business off with them if it were not removed right a way.
makarovnik
Member
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- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,678
In some states you can be prosecuted for not obeying those signs. Chances of getting caught are slim though. I tell you one thing; If someone came in and started shooting, I wouldn't pull my pistol to save anybody other than myself or my loved ones. Would it be worth saving strangers at the risk of going to jail for disobeying the sign? Not to me. Too bad society has made me feel this way.
I think that you should DUMP the boob tube connection with any company including the 'cable' one - means NO dish tv or direct tv too. Just my opinion and NO offense.
Get yourself a telephone and internet connection with x, y or z company.
WHY the heck would you want to do business with a company that 'screwed you' by taking out your system - why your wife or anyone in the house let them IN to do this is beyond me but they came in and REMOVED IT anyway?
They don't want GUNS in their business or like guns - so screw them. NO offense.
Businesses have a right to declare what they want in their stores NO matter how much we do not 'like it'. Open or conceal carry - I don't like it but you see that ALL over the country. So do COURT HOUSES AND OTHER GOVERNMENT PLACES where they do not want the mere serfs to carry - so what do you do THERE, eh?
Fight them - yes, you can do that.
If it is not a $goobmint$ building or business that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DEAL WITH - screw them and quit feeding the BEAST aka the CORPORATE FED TUBE OF LIES, MISINFORMATION AND BS CONTROL IN MASS MEDIA IN ALL WAYS AND NOT ONLY IN POLITICS.
Wake up and smell the coffee. No offense. If more people did this - well, we could watch some of it change but people are glued to and under mass media/30 second sound bite control with the BEAST in many ways.
Catherine
Get yourself a telephone and internet connection with x, y or z company.
WHY the heck would you want to do business with a company that 'screwed you' by taking out your system - why your wife or anyone in the house let them IN to do this is beyond me but they came in and REMOVED IT anyway?
They don't want GUNS in their business or like guns - so screw them. NO offense.
Businesses have a right to declare what they want in their stores NO matter how much we do not 'like it'. Open or conceal carry - I don't like it but you see that ALL over the country. So do COURT HOUSES AND OTHER GOVERNMENT PLACES where they do not want the mere serfs to carry - so what do you do THERE, eh?
Fight them - yes, you can do that.
If it is not a $goobmint$ building or business that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DEAL WITH - screw them and quit feeding the BEAST aka the CORPORATE FED TUBE OF LIES, MISINFORMATION AND BS CONTROL IN MASS MEDIA IN ALL WAYS AND NOT ONLY IN POLITICS.
Wake up and smell the coffee. No offense. If more people did this - well, we could watch some of it change but people are glued to and under mass media/30 second sound bite control with the BEAST in many ways.
Catherine
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