So...just when is it acceptable to pull your gun?

[M&PVolk]

The copper thief story seems to have brought out tons of moral questions about the use of force in a given situation. The issue of morality vs. the law is a good one, and one which makes me curious as to everyone's individual stance on the issue of using a firearm.

In your individual opinion, just when is it acceptable to draw your gun? Must you be in dire distress only (i.e: a gun is already being pointed at you)? Is the suspicion of intent to harm enough (can't see a weapon, but aggressive behavior is being exhibited placing you in that "this is going bad" mindset)? Is drawing your gun on a thief acceptable (catch someone jacking your car)?

Keep in mind, I'm not asking about when it is acceptable to SHOOT someone! I am asking only when you believe the situation is rising to the level that presenting a gun is a reasonable action, knowing that you may then have to pull the trigger.

Discuss.

 

[Treo]

In Colorado you must be in reasonable fear or losing your life, being the victim of a sexual assault, or sustaining grievous bodily harm. If someone is in your home you get to presume intent.

 

[Rugerlvr]

I'll tell you after I finish the concealed carry class this Saturday.

(My instructor is going to be Larry Correia, of FBMG/Monster Hunter International fame, and moderator on THR.)

 

[CountGlockula]

All your questions can be answered by your CCW instructor.

 

[TX1911fan]

Rugerlvr, I'm jealous.

To answer the question. I would only draw my weapon if I intended to shoot it unless the BG IMMEDIATELY broke off contact and/or stood down. In other words, I would assume a shot is going to occur. This means I will only draw if I have a resonable belief that I or my family (or in limited circumstances, third parties) are going to suffer grevious bodily harm or death. I would assume that if a BG was in my house. Would I draw if someone was stealing my car or my TV? Probably not, unless the situation progressed to a belief of harm or death (so if I was home at the time, I would assume it, and probably shoot anyway). I wouldn't feel bad about killing someone stealing my stuff, but I don't want the legal hassle over a tv or iPod. It's my opinion that most petty criminals progress, so taking them out sooner is not that big of a deal. Maybe a bit harsh, but that's how I feel.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I'm of the same mindset as TX1911fan. My plans of action are pretty much the same too.

 

[redneckrepairs]

A friend i trade guns with a lot owns a liquor store , and it in fact is on my block . He likes " big " pistols because he wants any robber to be intimidated if it comes out . By the same token he tells all his gun folk that " bob carrys a smaller pistol because you wont see it untill you are shot , he dont bluff . Now no matter the fact that he is right ( i am bob lol ) . He will not " pull the gun " before i do but he will count on intimidation . I will not . As a side note he wants to hire me for whatever hours i can put in , and this store has not been held up in the last 30 years that i know of . problem is i ranch and i can give him every other Sunday at best , and that as a friend, not a fella wanting a job lol .

 

[Eric F]

Is the suspicion of intent to harm enough (can't see a weapon, but aggressive behavior is being exhibited placing you in that "this is going bad" mindset)? Is drawing your gun on a thief acceptable (catch someone jacking your car)?

Yes to all of the above. Your the only one home and the only one suposed to be there and you hear a person walking in your home but you cant see them, time to go to guns! If I find a person jacking my car time to go to guns, if they stick around then the cops can deal with them, if they run I am going to get a discription and let them run. So why the gun? I dont want a suprise pointed at me with nothing in my hand!

 

[Elza]

My sentiments are exactly as stated by TX1911fan. However, it all depends upon the laws in your state. Many things that are legal in Texas are not in other states.

 

[redneckrepairs]

I show my gun when i need to shoot it . As a ccw if i need to present the weapon then if i dont need to shoot someone else changed so that the gun is not necessary while i drew . Ie they obeyed commands . I do not draw , grab , otherwise present a firearm to intemidate , when the point of aim reaches your center of mass i will shoot , and i will continue to shoot untill you fall down and quit what made me shoot you in the first place . Once a weapon is involved ( mine ) i dont warn , i dont talk , i will shoot you if you are not complying . IMHO a weapon is not a threat , it is a tool .

 

[Big B]

Responsibility is key here

Only if your life is in danger. I can't imagine leveling a gun at someone who isn't threatening my life.( or others near me) If it's a theif who isn't (or doesn't appear to be) armed, and you point a gun at them to save your property...well I can't help but feel that you can be just as dangerous to others, as the BG who'll point a gun at me for my truck. May I suggest a fist or other non-lethal force for this instance. If you are not a fighter, then mace and pepperspray might be Ideal. Please don't draw your weapons unless it's a life and death situation, as the consequences are too great. Besides you will be doing nothing to help our RTBA.

 

[Ifishsum]

you point a gun at them to save your property...well I can't help but feel that you're just as bad as the BG who'll point a gun at me for my truck.

I don't follow this logic at all. If it's my truck(or whatever it is) and he's trying to take it then he's the bad guy. If it were legal I would have no problem drawing a gun on and shooting someone stealing or attempting to steal my property. I believe I should have that right. I've been ripped off several times by tweakers roaming the neighborhood, and to be perfectly honest I don't value their life as much as I do my property. Unfortunately, I would get into trouble in my state for drawing a gun and/or shooting a thief that wasn't threatening my life, so I wouldn't do it. Because I'm a law abiding citizen. That is the difference between me and them, and what makes me a better person than they are.

 

[Texas9]

State Laws

The truth is that it absolutely varies from state to state. Texas, for instance, has deadly force laws that allow for the protection of property.

DO NOT ASSUME that the laws of one person in one state are the same in another. This will land you in a world of trouble. If you have questions, ask your instructor. If you don't have an instructor, GET ONE!!!

I'll add one more confusing note. I know that in Texas, the threat of deadly force qualifies as deadly force. In layman's terms, this means that you'd better have reason to use your weapon before you draw it. It does NOT mean use it if you draw it!!!

All that being said, pull it if it's the only option.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Just a quip about law. Laws and morality can match each other. But it is morality and ethics that delineate right and wrong. Laws are not correct merely because they exist. An unjust law is a mafia creed on a larger scale.

That said, it may be strategically prudent to follow a law even if it is illegitimate. But that does not imply or constitute and endorsement of the immoral law, only a persecuted victim trying to survive under the pressure of wrongful force.

For example, the only way I could shoot handguns for fun (due to medical concerns) would be to buy a .22 with suppressor and shoot alone, but I'm not gonna do that since it's not worth going to jail for. That doesn't make it right or just, it's simply a sad fact of misused government power.

 

[Joe Demko]

I've never pulled a gun unless I believed myself or another person to be in immediate danger of harm. Although I've pulled a gun several times, I've never yet been forced to shoot anybody. I'd prefer to keep it that way.

 

[Old Grump]

Drawing a weapon and shooting it are 2 entirely different subjects

Speaking as a veteran you don't go into combat with your weapon stored, it's in your hands ready for deployment. If you suspect a situation is going to be bad you put a gun in your hands, irrelevant whether it is a 22 or 50 cal, shotgun, rifle or pistol, it needs to be in your hand, if you wait till you see the other guys gun or he is 6' from you with a knife in his hand it is already to late. You have a right to protect self and others and you have a right to protect your property. Have a gun in your hand.

Shooting is different. If you are not committed to shooting when necessary than you are better off running and making frightened noises in an effort to gather help around you. If your life is being threatened or somebody else's life is under threat and you need to shoot the booger man don't hesitate, aim and shoot. Let the bad days in recovery be his not yours. If he has your TV or grannies silver and he puts it down to beat a hasty retreat you cannot shoot. Sorry folks but even if he still has grannies silver if you can't see his eyes and he isn't coming towards you you can't shoot.

Standard for drawing a weapon is a lot lower than that of shooting your weapon but the situation can change fast so be on the safe side, be armed.

 

[3KillerBs]

Legally, in NC, the use of a defensive display of a firearm is iffy -- though in the more rural, more conservative areas the sheriff and DA are likely to be OK with it if it was clearly a defensive move.

If it's a theif who isn't (or doesn't appear to be) armed, and you point a gun at them to save your property...well I can't help but feel that you're just as bad as the BG who'll point a gun at me for my truck. May I suggest a fist or other non-lethal force for this instance.

I couldn't get this answered on the other thread, so I'll ask you, ...

Does this mean that as a middle-aged woman who stands 5'3" and who is naturally clumsy and un-athletic, I am a second-class citizen when its comes to defending my property?

I am not 100% comfortable with shooting thieves and yet, is it not absurd and immoral to require that, according to my state law, if I come upon a thief inside my home (in the act of breaking in is different under NC law), and he tips his hat politely to me while saying, "Don't worry, ma'am, I'm just here for the computers and the TV," I have to stand there, weapon holstered, and watch him walk away with the hard-earned fruits of our labor because I lack the physical capacity to stop him without shooting him?

IMO, the laws I live under come very close to declaring that the large and strong have a right to take stuff from the small and weak. Please, try to ponder the question from the point of view of a person who, if she threw a punch at a robber, would be more likely to break her own wrist than present the slightest inconvenience to him.

 

[Ltlabner]

Must you be in dire distress only (i.e: a gun is already being pointed at you)?

Firstly refer to the laws to the State of Ohio.

You have to meet the requirements for use of deadly force in Ohio or face a brandishing charge. However, it's possible, IMO, to reach those requirements long before you are being held at gunpoint.

Is the suspicion of intent to harm enough (can't see a weapon, but aggressive behavior is being exhibited placing you in that "this is going bad" mindset)?

Depends on the scenario.

You are at the ATM at night and suddenly a woman is a few steps behind you asking you a bizzare question and out of the corner of your eye you see a 200lbs man charging at you from the other direction. In that case I'd be moving to put distance between us, reaching/drawing the weapon and issuing clear and loud commands.

Or you are walking down the street in a part of town known to be shady. As you walk in the middle of the sidewalk some tough looking punks shout some slurs at you but remain across the street perched on the steps to a building. The shouts and cat calls get louder and more insulting but as you pass them the punks still remain glued to their side of the street. Clearly you'd be in trouble if you whipped out your piece (although your threat-level and blood-pressure would have gone up and you'd be wise to get down the street asap)

So again, depends on the scenario of "this is going bad" as to whether the weapon would be presented.

Is drawing your gun on a thief acceptable (catch someone jacking your car)?

For me personally and acording to the State of Ohio, no.

Again, this is just what works for me and frankly I don't care how other people would handle it, but I find it a bit silly to take a life over a DVD player or stolen car. I'd challenge the theif, make a lot of noise and attempt to scare them off, but if it's only the property and they make no theatening moves towards me or a loved one....I'd likely not draw the weapon (although my hand would clearly be gripping it and ready to present and would do so in an instant should the theif make ANY threatening moves towards me).

I say I wouldn't draw it because (1) you can't use deadly force in Ohio to defend property anyway (2) I'm not going to draw the weapon when I know in my heart I'm not going to press the trigger. I'm just not ready to take a life over something that can (for me) be replaced. I'd feal pretty dammed stupid if I drew the weapon and the theif went on his merry way while I stood there doing nothing.

But the scenario is important too. A theif in the house at night...you better believe a weapon will be presented. A theif trying to jimmy the lock of my car and I'm 50' away in the middle of a busy parking lot. Weapon stays in holster.

Again, the second the theif goes from swiping the lawn chair off the back porch to moving towards me in a theatening matter.....I'd draw, shoot and not think a second about it.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Only if your life is in danger. I can't imagine leveling a gun at someone who isn't threatening my life.( or others near me) If it's a theif who isn't (or doesn't appear to be) armed, and you point a gun at them to save your property...well I can't help but feel that you're just as bad as the BG who'll point a gun at me for my truck. May I suggest a fist or other non-lethal force for this instance.

How do you know whether someone is armed with a knife or gun? Would you gamble with your life and limb by engaging in a fist fight? Do you believe an act of theft is an isolated incident in an otherwise fully rational and productive life of a peaceful citizen, to the point where you'd be so confident he won't decide to silence you as the witness?

As for equating a victim drawing a gun on a criminal with a criminal drawing a gun on a victim...if you really thought that through before posting, feel free to confirm this assertion before I comment further on it.

booger man

We all gotta beware the booger men.

 

[Big B]

I've been ripped off several times by tweakers roaming the neighborhood, and to be perfectly honest I don't value their life as much as I do my property.

Me too, and I feel the same way. But, in my opinion I think the crime should fit the punishment, and brandishing or shooting at an unarmed robber isn't right. (or legal in my state)
Recently a man in my area walked out of his house with a loaded .22 rifle and shot at two men who were breaking into his truck. The truck was down the street on the other side. The two men had posed no immediate threat to his life. I can't help but feel that he was as much of a danger to his neighbors, as the BG's robbing him.(This happened in suburban area) That behavior is what my comment was directed at.
Don't get me wrong, I own guns and will use them if I have to save my or anothers life. That being said I will also do what I can to not get into a situation where I have to draw or shoot at someone.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Big B, it's not about punishment. If the victim is inside an Abrams tank, he is in a position to dispense punishment. If not, it's simply defense. In a crime situation, if I'm defending myself I don't go "this is just punishment for his behavior", I go "this is necessary to preserve my rights".

 

[1KPerDay]

I'll tell you after I finish the concealed carry class this Saturday.

(My instructor is going to be Larry Correia, of FBMG/Monster Hunter International fame, and moderator on THR.)

You will be very pleased. Larry teaches a great class. Much more interesting and fun than I thought it would be.

 

[K3]

and brandishing or shooting at an unarmed robber isn't right

But how do you know for certain they're unarmed?

 

[Big B]

3KillerBs. I don't think I implied that, or believe that anybody is a second class citizen if they are not a large man who is trained to fight. My words are just my opinion. If you feel comfortable shooting your specified robber in your home, than the least I could ask is to consider other people who could be hit by your fire. Use proper loads and try to shoot in any known "safe" direction. The legality of your actions in your state are up to you to find out.
La Pistoletta. I wouldn't compare a victim to a criminal, unless they did something irrational and dangerous enough that they put even more lives at stake with their actions. Like the example I gave.
It appears that I gave the wrong impression, and a poor explanation.
In my opinion I believe that a gun should be drawn to protect life, not property. If you think your life is in danger than protect yourself.
If I have to draw mine I will be prepared to use it, and thankfull if I don't have to fire.
In my opinion a life (no matter how little I value it) is not worth 99.9% of most of our property. Life is another story.
That's just how I feel. I hope I didn't seem like I was telling you how to live.

 

[Big B]

But how do you know for certain they're unarmed?

You don't.