So...just when is it acceptable to pull your gun?

[La Pistoletta]

How did you intend "If it's a theif who isn't (or doesn't appear to be) armed, and you point a gun at them to save your property...you're just as bad as the BG who'll point a gun at me for my truck." to be interpreted?

To me, things of value are those which further the life and wellbeing of innocents. That which harms them is an anti-value.

A criminal's life has value inasmuch as I disvalue myself. In other words, nothing. I assert my absolute right to absolutely inviolate life, liberty and property.

 

[FCFC]

This is a simple yet complicated question.

One thing is for sure. One must make a distinction of to whom it is acceptable? Legally? Socially? Ethically? Financially? Sensibly?

Here's a case where most people on THR will think it acceptable that a gun was pulled.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376712

Yet, clearly, George Harrison shouldn't have pulled out a gun. He was very foolish for having done so. Pulling a gun always escalates a situation. That's what it's for.

 

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

im 6ft tall, 195lbs. when i had a guy get out of his car yelling at me for nothing in seattle and he was probably 6'7 250lbs and swinging at me, i felt that i was just when i drew on him and got him to leave me alone and get in his car and drive off.

 

[jaak]

if someone is in my home, ill draw. if i feel threatened, it depends on the situtation. worst case, keep a throw down knife or something else handy.

 

[JWarren]

Operating within the laws of my jurisdiction as a "High Water Mark," I would be willing to draw if:

1. I am in danger of bodily harm.
2. Any of my family or loved ones is in danger of bodily harm.
3. My property is threatened.
4. That for which I am responsible is threatened.
5. That which I choose to make my concern is threated.


In the above, there may be some confusion in #4 and #5. The rest are self-explanatory.

In #4, I may be responsible for checking on my parents' home while they are traveling. If I saw an Arsonist trying to set it on fire, I would not hesitate to draw. This example hits pretty close to home. Two weeks ago, we had an arsonist finally captured who was burning homes. He burned 8 homes in a 1 month period. It turns out that he was a member of our local Volunteer Fire Department.

Funny thing, he was caught after he was suspected. When a fire was buring, they purposely sent out the wrong address on the radio. He still showed up at the right address with the truck.

In #5, I am not very well going to watch an elderly person get beat down or a child get abducted without trying to do whatever it takes within my power and as the situation merits to stop it.


I have drawn on a few occassions, and more than once I have drawn on an unarmed person.

I highlighted one on THR recently about a road-rage incident. Sorry, I am simply not going to get out and fight a guy in the street who is trying to break out my window with his fist. And I can fight-- I have my black belt, and I used to kickbox competatively.

But I am not morally or legally obligated to "duke it out" with anyone. I've seen people get SERIOUSLY hurt in FIST fights. I have a friend who recieved a detached retina from a punch in the ring. Over my training, I have sustained 27 broken bones. In once such occassion, I had 4 ribs broken from one kick. The doctor told me how lucky I was that the broken rib did not puncture my lung.

So no... I'm not going to fight you. You may just get lucky. Or I may.

In another occassion, I had a trespasser on our land who rushed me when I pulled up behind him (he was drunk as it turns out.) I had informed him not to come any closer, and he ignored it. I repeated myself, and again he ignored it. I could not see his hands, and had no way of knowing if he had a weapon. Either way, he was not closing the distance on me.

I punctuated my next request to not come any closer with drawing.

Seem extreme? Well, tell that to one of my father's friends who was in practically the exact situation in a road rage incident a bit back. Turns out that the person advancing had a Trailer Ball cupped in his hand and literally caved in the side of his head-- killing him instantly.


As I see it, don't crap in my pool, and I won't pee in your Cheerios. But I may pee in my pool, so don't eat your Cheerios in it.



-- John

 

[physics]

According to my CCW class notes, in OREGON, you are authorized to use lethal force if in the following situations:
1)someone committing or attempting to commit a felony using or threatening force.
2)someone committing or attempting to commit burglary of your dwelling (in defense of people not property).
3)someone using or attempting to use deadly force against someone else.
4)POSSIBLY in the defense of a person to stop imminent serious physical injury or death.

Keep in mind that while these are conditions in which you are able to utilize lethal force, there are 3 factors to consider. Ability, Opportunity, and Intent. You must weigh these 3 factors in any of the above 4 situations. Does the person accosting me have the ability to kill or severely hurt me (are they 3x my size, are there more than 1, etc...)? Do they have the opportunity (someone standing across the street with a knife threatening you doesn't have an opportunity, until they crosses the street.)? Do they intend to be in one of the above situations?

Keep in mind that while any of the situations I have described may independently be situations in which you can use lethal force, you must have Ability, Opportunity, and Intent all at the same time.

That said, I will never draw my gun until I see ability, opportunity, and intent. This does not mean you wait until they have the drop on you, but remember that exposing your weapon unnecessarily is brandishing, and could very much result in you having to shoot someone.

I'm not saying wait until you are totally 100% ready to shoot before drawing, because, as has been mentioned before, this doesn't allow for the idiot to change his mind, and stopping the threat is always better than stopping the person.

 

[3KillerBs]

3KillerBs. I don't think I implied that, or believe that anybody is a second class citizen if they are not a large man who is trained to fight.

But if property can only defended by non-lethal force, isn't the implication that those who are too small and weak to punch or grapple a thief have no right to defend their property?

As I said, I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of shooting a thief, but I see the defense of property laws I live under as the moral equivalent of the gun laws in "may issue" states where only the rich and well-connected can get carry permits.

Not permitting the small and weak to use the only thing that can erase the inequality between them and the large, strong predators who would victimize them creates second-class citizens where property rights are concerned whether or not it was intended to do so.

You originally said that a person who used lethal force against a thief was as bad as the criminal. So, put yourself into my position. Imagine being short, clumsy, and weak. Imagine that there is no way you could win a physical fight.

Then consider the situation I proposed of being face to face with someone intent on emptying your house of all its valuables and having no means of stopping him because you are small and weak.

Would you still believe that drawing a gun on him would make you as bad as he was?

 

[Ltlabner]

Wasn't the defending property with leathal force issue decided in the other thread?

 

[SP Shop Foreman]

All of the typing and all of the opinions will make excellent reading from your jail cell.
Read Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme".

Allen
SP

 

[KBintheSLC]

I like to avoid the gun until it is absolutely necessary... not because it wouldn't be fun to make a bloodbath out of a would-be perp, more that the legal repercussions are nasty as hell... even if you are in the right.

I always try to deescalate if possible. However, I don't think you have to cower and run away either (unless required to by the stupid laws in some States). Just remember that a shooting could cost tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars... so ask yourself, is it worth it?

 

[La Pistoletta]

All of the typing and all of the opinions will make excellent reading from your jail cell.
Read Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme".

We're not necessarily discussing only the "is", but the "ought" as well.

 

[SP Shop Foreman]

Discussion is fun and sometimes enlightening, but uninformed acting on "is's" and "oughts" can land you in the same place. Something as serious as this subject requires being fully informed before carrying, not finding out after you are carrying.

Allen
SP

 

[JWarren]

All of the typing and all of the opinions will make excellent reading from your jail cell.
Read Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme".

And why do you say that?

I get a kick out of people who immediately chime in that "Oh, no.. you will go to jail!" on these threads. Nevermind that MANY jurisdictions have provisions for defense of property, Castle Doctrine, etc. Nevermind that we have seen that this isn't case by in states with such provisions when actual situations have come up.

One must remember that the USA has a lot of real estate between the East Coast, the West Coast, and below Illinois.

Bottom line.... know the laws in your jurisdiction and operate within those laws. And ignore blanket generalization statements on internet forums.


-- John

 

[Huckle2]

3KillerBs -

You originally said that a person who used lethal force against a thief was as bad as the criminal. So, put yourself into my position. Imagine being short, clumsy, and weak. Imagine that there is no way you could win a physical fight.

If you are as you describe yourself, home alone, bad guy breaks in, knowing you are there alone, I'd think he's out to do you harm. Question is would a "person of ordinary firmness" think likewise? You don't know he's there to just steal from you and your not going to ask. 911 is on the phone, you demand this person leave your house, he refuses...next step is up to you.

 

[SP Shop Foreman]

Glad you're getting a kick out of us people, there Warren. But don't put words in my mouth.
A close friend of mine has been in jail for quite a while now because he thought that his local laws were on his side.
Whatever.

Allen
SP

 

[JWarren]

Allen,

I didn't put words in your mouth.

I took your exact quote:

All of the typing and all of the opinions will make excellent reading from your jail cell.
Read Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme".

And I pointed out that different jurisdictions have different provisions that one must operate within. Sorry, but your quote above does have a "blanket" quality to it.

Do you really think that you are the first person that has made such statements on these threads? Hardly, they come with routine frequency-- and typically ignore laws of jurisdictions other than the one they are highlighting and make no mention of them.

I frankly think that telling one side of the story with no acknowledgement of any other provisions is disingenious. So yeah... I get a "kick" out of it. But I never mentioned "You people." I said people.

I'm sorry if you did not like that I pointed out that there are no blanket provisions that exist across every state or jurisdiction where THR is read. I'll have to live with that. But I can live with that much easier than letting a proven erroneous statement to stand.


I would say that I may have took it out of context, but you see, I quoted your entire post #37.


As for your friend, that is addressed in my rebuttal--

Bottom line.... know the laws in your jurisdiction and operate within those laws. And ignore blanket generalization statements on internet forums.

-- John

 

[3KillerBs]

3KillerBs -
Quote:
You originally said that a person who used lethal force against a thief was as bad as the criminal. So, put yourself into my position. Imagine being short, clumsy, and weak. Imagine that there is no way you could win a physical fight.
If you are as you describe yourself, home alone, bad guy breaks in, knowing you are there alone, I'd think he's out to do you harm. Question is would a "person of ordinary firmness" think likewise? You don't know he's there to just steal from you and your not going to ask. 911 is on the phone, you demand this person leave your house, he refuses...next step is up to you.

The scenario I proposed to illustrate the absurdity, even potentially immoral nature of the laws in my state was that if I were to come in and find a thief and he tipped his hat and politely assured me that he was there only for my electronics I would have to stand there with my weapon holstered and watch him carry my TV and computer away.

 

[ScottE]

What if....

A couple years ago, my next door neighbor was at home, bed ridden due to high-blood pressure issue due to pregnancy. She was going to the hospital later that day to have her baby.

A young, nervous kid walked up to her door and started trying to get into the house. I called 911 and told the operator the details, while grabbing a stick and walking next door to help my neighbor. The operator convinced me to "stay put and not let the bad guy see me" as the police wanted to catch the guy doing his home invasion. The bad guy finally gave up and started walking up the street. The police finally showed up 7 or 8 minutes later and arrested the guy 2 blocks away. He told police he was trying to steal a trash can (brilliant).

If I would have taken a gun and drawn on the guy, would I have been justified? I don't know if he was armed, but I was truly afraid for my neighbor's (and unborn child's) life. About 60 days after this incident, I had a CCW.

It turned out ok, but I still feel guilty for not stopping this kid before he freaked out my neighbor.

Scott

 

[Big B]

I admit that I did a piss poor job of explaining my take on when I think it's acceptable to draw a gun. I thank all of you who questioned me. I now realize how my words read to all of you. My blanket statement of "drawing on an unarmed thief making you as bad as a criminal" just flat out sucked.( I was thinking of a specific situation that I failed to mention). I apologize for making such a poor statement. I was referring to the wannabe heros and vigilantes, like the man in my area I spoke of. He is just as bad as the BG's that were in his truck, because he put his neighbors in harms way when his life was in no immediate danger.
3KillerBs. You pose a good question, one that I don't think I understood the first time I read it. It sounds like your state has laws very similar to mine. Here we can't defend property with deadly force. Not only that, I don't feel comfortable defending my property with a firearm unless a life is in danger. That's my choice.

Not permitting the small and weak to use the only thing that can erase the inequality between them and the large, strong predators who would victimize them creates second-class citizens where property rights are concerned whether or not it was intended to do so.

I don't think that in this day and age a firearm is the "only thing" that will level the playing field between a large criminal and a small victim. I can't help but notice the large amount of non-lethal, or less lethal personal protection devices like stun guns, tazers, pepperspray or even non-lethal rounds, if they are available in your area. Keep in mind or brain is the true weapon. A gun is merely a tool. These are once again my opinions.
As far as your question about a robber tipping his hat politely as he walks out of your house with your stuff...well anytime someone unlawfully enters my house (especially at night) I know that I would feel that my life and health were in danger. I'm not sure that a thief would stick around to explain his intentions with a firearm leveled at him. As far as the woman you describe, whether it's you or anybody else, I do believe that there are ways to defend ones property when lethal force is not desired or legal. It's a matter of finding what you're comfortable with.
One last thing. It's not always the gun that's the deturrent, It can be the precieved willingness to use it.

 

[FCFC]

A couple years ago, my next door neighbor was at home, bed ridden due to high-blood pressure issue due to pregnancy. She was going to the hospital later that day to have her baby.

A young, nervous kid walked up to her door and started trying to get into the house. I called 911 and told the operator the details, while grabbing a stick and walking next door to help my neighbor. The operator convinced me to "stay put and not let the bad guy see me" as the police wanted to catch the guy doing his home invasion. The bad guy finally gave up and started walking up the street. The police finally showed up 7 or 8 minutes later and arrested the guy 2 blocks away. He told police he was trying to steal a trash can (brilliant).

If I would have taken a gun and drawn on the guy, would I have been justified? I don't know if he was armed, but I was truly afraid for my neighbor's (and unborn child's) life. About 60 days after this incident, I had a CCW.

It turned out ok, but I still feel guilty for not stopping this kid before he freaked out my neighbor.

Scott

Considering your level of concern for your female neighbor, I don't see why you didn't walk out with your weapon (only a stick) and meet the fellow. Assuming, of course, he wasn't visibly armed, say, with a gun.

Was the dispatcher just giving you conventional, liability-avoiding advice on staying out of sight? Sounds like it to me.

I think state and local laws determine whether it's a good idea or not to run over there with a gun and draw on the guy. You could always take the handy stick and keep the gun concealed, I think.

What was the kid charged with?

 

[ScottE]

"Considering your level of concern for your female neighbor, I don't see why you didn't walk out with your weapon (only a stick) and meet the fellow. Assuming, of course, he wasn't visibly armed, say, with a gun.

Was the dispatcher just giving you conventional, liability-avoiding advice on staying out of sight? Sounds like it to me.

I think state and local laws determine whether it's a good idea or not to run over there with a gun and draw on the guy. You could always take the handy stick and keep the gun concealed, I think.

What was the kid charged with?"

Yea, the dispatcher was just saying what she was trained to say, but at the time, I guess I thought police cars would be racing around the corner and save the day. If I could do it over, I would have gone over and at least talked to the kid and convinced him to leave the property.

I was just wondering if I would have been arrested for just drawing on the guy and holding him until the popo showed up. I'm sure it somewhat depends on the officers invoved.

I don't know what he was charged with.

Scott

 

[FCFC]

Yea, the dispatcher was just saying what she was trained to say, but at the time, I guess I thought police cars would be racing around the corner and save the day. If I could do it over, I would have gone over and at least talked to the kid and convinced him to leave the property.

I would agree with you. The kid would likely have took off. Which would have accomplished your mission: terminate the threat to your lady neighbor.

If you were bigger than the kid, then it probably would be not too too unsafe to go and tell the guy to split. Dialling a cell phone to report it to 911 would be a good idea. Maybe take a non-deadly weapon, too, in addition to your CCW. See, that's the thing, you can walk around your house, the sidewalk/street and even into your neighbor's property with your CCW. That should be no problem with anyone. But pulling the ole pistola out starts to change things...sometimes drastically.

I was just wondering if I would have been arrested for just drawing on the guy and holding him until the popo showed up. I'm sure it somewhat depends on the officers invoved.

I don't know what he was charged with.

What he was guilty of and/or what he was charged with might be relevant to your overall questionning. There usually are different rules for dealing with different behavior: forcible felony, home invasion, misdemeanor, carrying a weapon, etc.

Could you be arrested for "just drawing ... holding him?" Depends.

Drawing is one thing. Drawing and pointing is another. It depends on your local law. And your local LEOs.

Of course, once the gun comes out, the situation is escalated in several manners. So that becomes a consideration.

 

[alex_trebek]

I think that the setting changes the rules here.

1. You are at the mall. You notice some thug-looking kid follows you out to the parking lot. He/she then starts baiting (gotta cig?), and continues to approach after you tell them to stop. It is broad daylight and there are soccer moms on the other side of the parking lot. I would simply place my hand on the weapon, but not draw (or show) unless the thug continued to approach or drew a weapon. I would draw and shoot if the person continued to act aggressively. IF they report it to the police, it MIGHT be brandishing depending on the laws.

2. You are in your home/friends home, someone enters with illegal intentions. In this situation, I would draw as a first action since this is someone I don't know who just broke in, or entered the house like it was theirs.

Basically, public place = discretion, home/private property = drawing.

 

[3KillerBs]

3KillerBs. You pose a good question, one that I don't think I understood the first time I read it. It sounds like your state has laws very similar to mine. Here we can't defend property with deadly force. Not only that, I don't feel comfortable defending my property with a firearm unless a life is in danger. That's my choice.
Quote:
Not permitting the small and weak to use the only thing that can erase the inequality between them and the large, strong predators who would victimize them creates second-class citizens where property rights are concerned whether or not it was intended to do so.
I don't think that in this day and age a firearm is the "only thing" that will level the playing field between a large criminal and a small victim. I can't help but notice the large amount of non-lethal, or less lethal personal protection devices like stun guns, tazers, pepperspray or even non-lethal rounds, if they are available in your area. Keep in mind or brain is the true weapon. A gun is merely a tool. These are once again my opinions.
As far as your question about a robber tipping his hat politely as he walks out of your house with your stuff...well anytime someone unlawfully enters my house (especially at night) I know that I would feel that my life and health were in danger.

Thank you for the clarification and apology.

In the state of North Carolina I'm not allowed to assume that anyone who has made it all the way inside my house is there for nefarious purposes. Its legal to shoot someone who is in the act of breaking in, but once they are all the way inside I am legally required to assume that he means me no harm until he does something to prove otherwise.

A man who has told me that he means me no harm, who is not advancing towards me or towards my kids, who is not reaching for a weapon, and who merely removing my stuff in a non-threatening manner may indeed make me fear that he'll hurt me BUT he fails to meet the legal requirements to justify drawing a gun. I am legally required to believe what he says about how he's not going to hurt me. Since citizens' arrest is not legal in NC, I can only draw when a defensive shooting is legal (repeat previous caveat about the grey area of a defensive display subject to sheriff's and DA's discretion).

As for pepper spray, I'm asthmatic and even if I weren't using pepper spray in a confined space is problematic for anyone who isn't wearing a gas mask.

A taser may work in that, after he's been tased, he is likely to be mad enough to come at me -- which would justify shooting him. But it still doesn't answer the purpose of getting him to put my TV back then lie face-down with his hands on his head until the police arrive.

While I would certainly not advocate executing thieves and I would not cold-bloodedly shoot that polite thief in my living room, I have to believe that its unjust that I cannot use the only force that a person of my size and physical capability possesses and draw my gun to force him to put my TV down and assume an appropriate position to wait for the police.

I have to assume that these laws were written by large, strong men who believed themselves capable of coming out on top of a fair fight and who haven't the capability to imagine themselves small, weak, and helpless.

Probably large, strong, chivalrous, good-hearted men who, in their chivalry, didn't entirely grasp that a woman is not always in position to summon aid from a large, strong, chivalrous, good-hearted man. And even more so, in their good-heartedness, failed to grasp that other men are sufficiently unchivalrous and foul-hearted to victimize the helpless.

 

[BlackAgnes]

Should you pull your gun?

A friend of mine is in trouble (menacing 2nd, possession of a weapon) for pulling a gun on a guy in the situation described by quick draw mcgraw. The road-rager exited his truck after stopping in the middle of the lane, and came back at my pal, swearing and swinging.

My buddy pulls out his SIG, and the RRer retreats. Next thing my friend sees is a raft of police cars and a helo right above his head, and he's on his knees in the middle of the road. He has spent thousands so far on lawyers to fight this.

Lesson: In most confrontations, the FIRST guy to call the police wins. He becomes the complainant/victim, and you become the "man with a gun"., especially absent neutral witnesses (do these even exist?) to support you. He said/he said rules the day. CALL 911!!!!

Tim