So....What To do About Iran?

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The_Shootist

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Face it guys - its getting nasty. There's no way Iran can be allowed the remotest chance of acquiring nukes. I just see Israel (with tacit Us and some West Europe support) mounting some sort of bunker busting operation that at least slows them down.

Given the current regime in Iran, there really isn't any good solution.
 
The_Shootist said:
Face it guys - its getting nasty. There's no way Iran can be allowed the remotest chance of acquiring nukes. I just see Israel (with tacit Us and some West Europe support) mounting some sort of bunker busting operation that at least slows them down.

Given the current regime in Iran, there really isn't any good solution.

I can't resist asking how any of this concern is really different than believing the intelligence on Iraq.
 
Soo many are going to lose.

As Iran moves on development they will be engaged as I see no alternative from that region. Most of (90%-98%) of the people in Iran may be oposing the Iranian gov as elections and candidates are tightly regulated.
The best actions against Iran would be against the facilities and the leadership that strangle the gov.
 
ummm...other than the fact

that their own (newly-elected) leader is verifying the reports?

RealGun said:
I can't resist asking how any of this concern is really different than believing the intelligence on Iraq.
 
If he is as Dumb as Saddam to lie so be it. Art's grandma is correct that lying has real life consequences some are quite deadly.
 
orionengnr said:
that their own (newly-elected) leader is verifying the reports?

Oh, but it was it treated as equally credible with Saddam playing cat and mouse with weapons inspectors. Saddam supposedly is credited with the ruse of the century, partly to make Iran think twice about attacking Iraq.
 
Victor Davis Hanson puts things into perspective in an article for National Review Online. I've reproduced the whole thing below, but I think the last sentence bears highlighting and repeating:

... the public must be warned that dealing with a nuclear Iran is not a matter of a good versus a bad choice, but between a very bad one now and something far, far worse to come.

From National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200601130837.asp):

Victor Davis Hanson

January 13, 2006, 8:37 a.m.

The Multilateral Moment?

Our bad and worse choices about Iran.

"Multilateralism good; preemption and unilateralism bad.”

For four years we have heard these Orwellian commandments as if they were inscribed above the door of Farmer Jones’s big barn. Now we will learn their real currency, since the Americans are doing everything imaginable — drawing in the Europeans, coaxing the Russians and Chinese to be helpful at the U.N., working with international monitoring agencies, restraining Israel, talking to the Arabs, keeping our jets in their hangars — to avoid precipitous steps against Iran.

Its theocracy poses a danger to civilization even greater than a nuclear North Korea for a variety of peculiar circumstances. Iran is free of a patron like China that might in theory exert moderate influence or even insist on occasional restraint. North Korea, for an increasingly wealthy and capitalist China, is as much a headache and an economic liability as a socialist comrade.

In contrast, Iran is a cash cow for Russia (and China) and apparently a source of opportunistic delight in its tweaking of the West. Iranian petro-wealth has probably already earned Tehran at least one, and probably two, favorable votes at the Security Council.

Of course, Tehran’s oil revenues allow it access to weapons markets, and overt blackmail, both of which are impossible for a starving North Korea. And Iran’s nuclear facilities are located at the heart of the world’s petroleum reserves, where even the semblance of instability can drive up global oil prices, costing the importing world billions in revenues.

No one is flocking to Communism, much less Pyongyang’s unrepentant, ossified Stalinist brand. Islamic radicalism, on the other hand, has declared war on Western society and tens of thousands of jihdadists, whether Shiia or Sunnis, count on Iran for money, sanctuary, and support. Al Qaeda members travel the country that is the spiritual godhead of Hezbollah, and a donor of arms and money to radical Palestinian terrorists.

North Korea can threaten Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and the western United States, and so poses a real danger. But the opportunities for havoc are even richer for a nuclear Iran. With nukes and an earned reputation for madness, it can dictate to the surrounding Arab world the proper policy of petroleum exportation; it can shakedown Europeans whose capitals are in easy missile range; it can take out Israel with a nuke or two; or it can bully the nascent democracies of the Middle East while targeting tens of thousands of US soldiers based from Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf.

And Iran can threaten to do all this under the aegis of a crazed Islamist regime more eager for the paradise of the next world than for the material present so dear to the affluent and decadent West. If Iran can play brinkmanship now on just the promise of nuclear weapons, imagine its roguery to come when it is replete with them.

When a supposedly unhinged Mr. Ahmadinejad threatens the destruction of Israel and then summarily proceeds to violate international protocols aimed at monitoring Iran’s nuclear industry, we all take note. Any country that burns off some of its natural gas at the wellhead while claiming that it needs nuclear power for domestic energy is simply lying. Terrorism, vast petroleum reserves, nuclear weapons, and boasts of wiping neighboring nations off the map are a bad combination.

So we all agree on the extent of the crisis, but not on the solutions, which can be summarized by four general options.

First is the ostrich strategy — see and hear no evil, if extending occasional peace feelers out to more reasonable mullahs. Hope that “moderates” in the Iranian government exercise a restraining influence on Mr. Ahmadinejad. Sigh that nuclear Iran may well become like Pakistan — dangerous and unpredictable, but still perhaps “manageable.” Talk as if George Bush and the Iranians both need to take a time out.

I doubt that many serious planners any longer entertain this passive fantasy, especially after the latest rantings of Ahmadinejad. Pakistan, after all, has some secular leaders, is checked by nuclear India, and has a recent past of cooperation with the United States. Most importantly, it is more than ever a lesson in past laxity, as the United States and Europe were proven criminally derelict in giving Dr. Khan and his nuclear-mart a pass — which may well come back to haunt us all yet.

Alternatively, we could step up further global condemnation. The West could press the U.N. more aggressively — repeatedly calling for more resolutions, and, ultimately, for sanctions, boycotts, and embargos, energizes our allies to cut all ties to Iran, and provides far more money to dissident groups inside Iran to rid the country of the Khomeinists. Ensuring that democracy works in Iraq would be subversive to the mullahs across the border. Some sort of peaceful regime change is the solution preferred by most — and, of course, can be pursued in a manner contemporaneous with, not exclusionary to, other strategies.

It is a long-term therapy and therefore suffers the obvious defect that Iran might become nuclear in the meantime. Then the regime’s resulting braggadocio might well deflate the dissident opposition, as the mullahs boast that they alone have restored Iranian national prestige with an Achaemenid bomb.

A third, and often unmentionable, course is to allow the most likely intended target of nuclear Iran, Israel, to take matters into its own hands. We know this scenario from the 1981 destruction of Saddam’s French-built Osirak nuclear reactor: the world immediately deplores such “unilateral” and “preemptory” recklessness, and then sighs relief that Israel, not it, put the bell on the fanged cat.

But 2006 is not 1981. We are in war with Islamic radicalism, at the moment largely near the Iranian border in Iraq and Afghanistan. The resulting furor over a “Zionist” strike on Shia Iran might galvanize Iraqi Shiites to break with us, rather than bring them relief that the Jewish state had eliminated a nearby nuclear threat and had humiliated an age-old rival nation and bitter former enemy. Thousands of Americans are in range of Iranian artillery and short-term missile salvoes, and, in theory, we could face in Iraq a conventional enemy at the front and a fifth column at the rear.

And Iran poses far greater risks than in the past for Israeli pilots flying in over the heart of the Muslim world, with 200-300 possible nuclear sites that are burrowed into mountains, bunkers and suburbs. Such a mission would require greater flight distances, messy refueling, careful intelligence, and the need to put Israeli forces on alert for an Iranian counterstrike or a terrorist move from Lebanon. Former Israeli friends like Turkey are now not so cordial, and the violation of Islamic airspace might in the short-term draw an ugly response, despite the eventual relief in Arab capitals at the elimination of the Iranian nuclear arsenal.

If the Israeli raids did not take out the entire structure, or if there were already plutonium present in undisclosed bunkers, then the Iranians might shift from their sickening rhetoric and provide terrorists in Syria and Lebanon with dirty bombs or nuclear devices to “avenge” the attack as part of a “defensive” war of “striking back” at “Israeli aggression”. Europeans might even shrug at any such hit, concluding that Israel had it coming by attacking first.

The fourth scenario is as increasingly dreaded as it is apparently inevitable — a U.S. air strike. Most hope that it can be delayed, since its one virtue — the elimination of the Iranian nuclear threat — must ipso facto outweigh the multifaceted disadvantages.

The Shiite allies in Iraq might go ballistic and start up a second front as in 2004. Muslim countries, the primary beneficiaries of a disarmed Iran, would still protest loudly that some of their territories, if only for purposes of intelligence and post-operative surveillance, were used in the strike. After Iraq, a hit on Iran would confirm to the Middle East Street a disturbing picture of American preemptory wars against Islamic nations.

Experts warn that we are not talking about a Clintonian one-day cruise-missile hit, or even something akin to General Zinni’s 1998 extended Operation Desert Fox campaign. Rather, the challenges call for something far more sustained and comprehensive — perhaps a week or two of bombing at every imaginable facility, many of them hidden in suburbs or populated areas. Commando raids might need to augment air sorties, especially for mountain redoubts deep in solid rock.

The political heat would mount hourly, as Russia, China, and Europe all would express shock and condemnation, and whine that their careful diplomatic dialogue had once again been ruined by the American outlaws. Soon the focus of the U.N. would not be on Iranian nuclear proliferation, or the role of Europe, Pakistan, China, and Russia in lending nuclear expertise to the theocracy, but instead on the mad bomber-cowboy George Bush. We remember that in 1981 the world did not blame the reckless and greedy French for their construction of a nuclear reactor for Saddam Hussein, but the sober Israelis for taking it out.

Politically, the administration would have to vie with CNN’s daily live feeds of collateral damage that might entail killed Iranian girls and boys, maimed innocents, and street-side reporters who thrust microphones into stretchers of civilian dead. The Europeans’ and American Left’s slurs of empire and hegemony would only grow.

We remember the “quagmire” hysteria that followed week three in Afghanistan, and the sandstorm “pause” that prompted cries that we had lost Iraq. All that would be child’s play compared to an Iranian war, as retired generals and investigative reporters haggled every night on cable news over how many reactor sites were still left to go. So take for granted that we would be saturated by day four of the bombing with al Jazeera’s harangues, perhaps a downed and blindfolded pilot or two paraded on television, some gruesome footage of arms and legs in Tehran’s streets, and the usual Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer outtakes.

So where do these bad and worse choices leave us? Right where we are now — holding and circling while waiting for a break in the clouds.

Still, there are two parameters we should accept — namely, that Iran should not be allowed to arm its existing missiles with nukes and that Israel should not have to do the dirty work of taking out Iran’s nuclear infrastructure.

The Europeans and the Americans right now must accelerate their efforts and bring the crisis to a climax at the Security Council to force China and Russia publicly to take sides. India, Pakistan, and the Arab League should all be brought in and briefed on the dilemma, and asked to go on record supporting U.N. action.

The public relations war is critical. Zen-like, the United States must assure the Europeans, Russians, and Arabs that the credit for a peaceful solution would be theirs. The lunacy of the Iranian president should provide the narrative of events, and thus be quoted hourly — as we remain largely silent.

Economically, we should factor in the real possibility that Iranian oil might be off the global market, and prepare — we have been here before with the Iranian embargo of 1979 — for colossal gasoline price hikes. This should also be a reminder that Ahmadinejad, Saddam, Hugo Chavez, and an ascendant and increasingly undemocratic Putin all had in common both petrodollar largess and desperate Western, Chinese, and Indian importers willing to overlook almost anything to slake their thirst. Unless we develop an energy policy that collapses the global oil price, for the next half-century expect every few years something far creepier than the Saudi Royals and Col. Moammar Gadhafi to threaten the world order.

The Democratic leadership should step up to the plate and, in Truman-esque fashion, forge a bipartisan front to confront Iran and make the most of their multilateral moment. If the Democrats feel they have lost the public’s confidence in their stewardship of national security, then the threat of Iran offers a Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, or John Kerry an opportunity to get out front now and pledge support for a united effort — attacking Bush from the right about too tepid a stance rather from the predictable left that we are “hegemonic” and “imperialistic” every time we use force abroad.

Finally, the public must be warned that dealing with a nuclear Iran is not a matter of a good versus a bad choice, but between a very bad one now and something far, far worse to come.
 
And what if Iran already *has* nuc capabilities? What if we're just being baited?
A joint U.S./Isaraeli attack with a nuclear response from Iran and they can claim self-defense. A scary thought...
Biker
 
We simply don't have the manpower to do an all out invasion. Maybe if we pulled all of our troops from various countries they aren't needed but that is a stretch. Our best bet is to use covert operations. A good bit of Iran is young, and while maybe not totally pro west aren't anti west either, most want to westernize and modernize a bit. So my idea would be covert ops, take out best teams give them the best rifles and equipment we have plenty of ammo, a target list, and tell them to have some target practice. Nukes like guns themselves aren't a problem, it is the people with their fingers on the trigger that can prove to be a problem. Remove the guys from power that would love to see us and Israel gone and the problem is dramatically reduced.

Option B is the option reserved for if option A doesn't have time to do anything. In short blow them into the stone age. Massive air strike against their air defense system and quick response units with cruise missiles and stealth. Follow that up with a second wave massive air strike against their command and control, nuclear program, weapons program, etc. I do NOT advocate the use of nukes. If anything very small tactical nukes for targets which conventional weapons wont be able to take out, such as some bunkers. But only as a last resort against the most important targets that absolutely need to be taken out that conventional weapons wont be able to do. I understand regime change can't be effective with air power alone. But it can be effective for destroying infrastructure and weapons.
 
I can't resist asking how any of this concern is really different than believing the intelligence on Iraq.
Because all we had with Saddam was intel, and a where did they go. Something I supported and to a point still do. Here we have the guy point blank telling us he does, have unquestionable photos, and has Russia admitting. Sure, they say it is just for power, but doubt it highly.

And what if Iran already *has* nuc capabilities? What if we're just being baited?
A joint U.S./Isaraeli attack with a nuclear response from Iran and they can claim self-defense
Truly scary indeed. But with people that fanaticle your chances of getting hit are good reguardless of if you strike first or not. And self defense, if we use large scale nukes maybe. But bombing civilians with nukes doesn't fly to well for the self defence card unless we do the same first. Even if we use tactical nukes, if we don't use them agianst civilians them using ones they may already have agianst civilians still doesn't hold water as self defense.
 
Dunno Lupinus, I don't think that the size of the nuke will matter in the long run.
If we use them first, we're condemned. Now, I don't much care about world opinion, but this could be significant. And really, nukes, either now or downstream, don't really discriminate.
Biker
 
...what to do?...

Welcome them to the NBBC (Nuclear Big Boys Club). And explain the rules of nuclear war. You use one, we target a hundred.

Then leave them alone.

Mohammedites have a pathetic society, but they are not stupid.
 
Dunno Lupinus, I don't think that the size of the nuke will matter in the long run.
If we use them first, we're condemned. Now, I don't much care about world opinion, but this could be significant. And really, nukes, either now or downstream, don't really discriminate.
Good point. But while the world is pretty sympathetic even Europe seems to be fed up with Iran. While using any nukes from our side wont go over well I think them retaliating agianst civilians with nukes will go over even worse then that. The type I am talking about are akin to enhanced bunker busters and the amount needed to give it the extra punch to get through a bunker would be (I'm no rocket scientist so I am guessing here) relativly small and therefore so would the radioactive material. Also keep in mind that since we are talking enhanced bunker busters the main explosion is going to be underground. Now not as deep as an old mine shaft like in the tests we used to do, but still underground. That would seem to contain a reasonable amount of radioactive materal under the ground, at least to the point of keeping it from drifting hundred of miles to heavily populated civilian areas.

Welcome them to the NBBC (Nuclear Big Boys Club). And explain the rules of nuclear war. You use one, we target a hundred.

Then leave them alone.

Mohammedites have a pathetic society, but they are not stupid.
With most countries that would work. It has worked with India and Pakistan, heck even has worked with China. But I doubt that will work with radical Islamics. MAD only works if both sides are afriad of destruction. Islamic terrorists simply are not, and they aren't above sacraficing the lives of themselves or innocents to do that. Not even muslims, plenty of Iraqi citizens coperating with the US and otherwise have been killed by terrorists and they don't care. I doubt they would be afriad of retaliation if they could set off a nuke inside the US. They would see it as a great victory even if it ment a nuke going off over one of their cities.
 
EMP threat

If Iran developes nukes and puts them on top of the rockets they have been testing, then fire these rockets from a ship, they can create an electromagnetic pulse that (in thoery) would destroy anything in the USA that relies on magnetic fields for power. Goodbye electricity, computers, cell phones, cars; hello horses, steam locomotives, firearms, kerosene lanterns and splitting mauls for firewood.

Add this to the stuff Iran's president is spewing about preparing for the 12th Imam (end of world prophecy stuff) and it sounds like a dangerous situation.

If you take what he says seriously and if somebody doesn't do something before it's too late, I hope you stocked up on 5.56 and 7.62x39.

I'm starting to sound paranoid aren't I.....I'll stop now.
 
Iran wants nukes sooo bad, I think we should give them some.....used.

Smaller nukes could not only knock out their facilities, but also make them unusable for a few thousand years. Since they are supposedly secret facilities I would think that they are at least somewhat isolated. Civilian casualties might be greatly reduced because of that.

This Iranian President is a whack job along the lines of Kim Jon Il...both of them make my skin crawl every time I see them on the news. Does anybody here think either of these meglomaniacs give a rat's patoot about civilian casualties when they get the chance to make their big splash??? The time is coming when we're going to have to suck it up and take the gloves off with these nimrods. Hopefully TPTB make the decision before it's too late for us.

Be the first to use nukes??? Boat's already sailed on that one. We were the first to use nukes. I fail to see what difference the method of destruction makes. 1 nuclear bomb kills 100K in seconds or 100 conventional bombs kill the same number in hours; it's still the same loss of life. One uses a chemical reaction, the other an atomic reaction...both result in a destructive explosion. Is a 5,000 lb conventional bomb somehow more immoral than a 500 lb bomb?

If the US launched a pre-emptive nulclear strike on Iran I'm sure a lot of folks in the world would have a lot to say about it. I'm also sure a lot would say "They asked for it". I think that it would get very quiet the next time some country decided to head down the path to "Rouge Nation" status.

Of course, all of this drama and angst could be avoided if the UN would extract it's head from it's posterier and take decisive action for the best interest of the whole world. I'm not holding my breath. Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind when thinking about the UN.

You've got to stop and remember who/what we're dealing with here, and consider what's at stake. Iran gets nukes, they're going to use them.
 
One could argue that Iran had no other choice in pursuing a nuclear option.

We've knocked over two countries in a row and replaced the power structure. All this was done with relatively little fuss. It didn't matter that other countries raised a big stink over our actions in Iraq, because they haven't actually done anything to prevent or halt it. Now Iran is sitting right across the border from an extremely large and seasoned US military force. Wouldn't you feel threatened? What is basically the only thing you could do to keep them from steamrolling you? See nuclear option number one.

I don't think it's rocket science, excuse the pun, and I don't think it's really got much to do with Iran threatening its neighbors. Pakistan and India, nuclear powers, both threaten each other. Why haven't we 'liberated' those countries? If Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, it seems like a self-preservation move to me. If you want the US to dance on its tiptoes, acquire nuclear weapons. Iraq didn't, or at least didn't have the capability to do any damage at range, and now they see Humvees and US flags at the Baghdad QuikMart. It's kind of like the 'have a gun' argument. If you're going to carry a gun, you better be prepared to use it if threatened. Saddam, if he had the option, didn't use it. Now he spends his days impotently yelling at judges.

I think the US power structure thinks like this. There might never be a better time to strike Iran. The Russians are less powerful than in the Cold War, and they still have the Chechens occasionally making noise. They haven't called our bluff twice in a row. The Bush administration has seen what will and won't work with fear-mongering, and "look out they've got nukes/chemical weapons' is a tactic which should work again in the Security Council. Even if we didn't invade, if you attack strategically, you could potentially create the same situation that existed in Iraq before Saddam was toppled: an economically, militarily weakened country, embargoed from every side, that can be picked off in the future with little danger to the homeland.

I personally think we invaded Iraq so that a Russian-backed Iran didn't do it first. Saddam would have died someday. Who was going to fill his shoes? We weakened him enough with war and sanctions. He was primed for being toppled by somebody else if not us.

Will the Russians finally decide the US has made enough noise and secured entirely too many airfields close to its shores in the name of 'freedom'? Will China decide it first?

"Terrorism" will continue to grow, and I think the US power structure knows this. Any large, organized power opposed to the US attracts attention and JDAM's. The only way to fight back for these people is with guerilla tactics and suicide bombings. It doesn't seem to be working for them, but it's the only damage they can inflict.

Iran has organization, access to oil and customers that need it (Asia), access to weapons and technology (Russia/China/North Korea), and a power structure hostile to the US.

I say all this without the benefit of facts. If Iran could definitely show they had no nuclear weapons or intent, I'm sure the US would quit saber-rattling and leave them in peace.

Yeah, right.

jmm
 
If Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, it seems like a self-preservation move to me.

Or you can believe what they have told the world about destroying Israel. A top cleric just referenced using them in a first strike against Israel.
 
I think you are both right, Grimjaw and GoRon. Iran is a pawn in an international game of risk, winner take all the oil. And it is run by a lunatic theocracy that is unstable and dangerous. There are no easy answers on this one, but I think that before we let our leaders drag us in there like half-cocked cowboys, we aught to take a good long look at where the money goes.
 
No flame intended

Lone_Gunman said:
I don't think we can do anything now that involves land troops, considering we have them tied up with Bush's folly in Iraq.


it would seem to me however that your signature is in direct conflict to your statement here isnt it?:eek:
 
grimjaw said:
Pakistan and India, nuclear powers, both threaten each other. Why haven't we 'liberated' those countries?

Pakistan and India aren't run by whack jobs who think the US is Satan.

That "welcome to the big boys nuclear club" gets stood on its head when you are facing crazy people who are willing to die so long as they take out a couple of Americans.
 
it would seem to me however that your signature is in direct conflict to your statement here isnt it?

No, I dont think my sig conflicts this statement. We have to do something about Iran, I just dont think we have anything to do it with now. Even Bush acknowledges this, and his Secretary of State has said in the last 72 hrs that we have no plans of attacking Iran at this time.

The War in Iraq has been an exercise in how to screw up a war by not planning ahead. Remember all the problems we had at first by not armouring HumVees, and providing body armour to soldiers? If we go into Iran as half assed as we went into Iraq, I think we will lose a lot of good men.

We are sooner or later going to have to deal with Iran, but will probably have to abandon our nation building project in Iraq to do so.
 
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