daniel craig
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2009
- Messages
- 2,815
Bro shhhhhh. Don’t wanna get out the fancy mathReal men use radians
Bro shhhhhh. Don’t wanna get out the fancy mathReal men use radians
Not disagreeing at all. I just think people far far far too often blame the equipment, assuming their skill is where it needs to be.Yes, this is true. But a rifle should be thought of as a "system". Some of the components of the system: The rifle, optic, mounting hardware, bipod or other accessories, a selected round that the rifle likes- all properly assembled- and finally, a shooter applying the fundamentals.
Of course. No one would claim otherwise.Accuracy is the byproduct of a system. Rifle, load, shooter.
For sure. It happens all the timeMany times I see guys at the range blaming the firearm when they might do better to look in the mirror......calm down and check their equipment and get back to fundamentals-
First, let’s get this out the way, if your rifle is getting 1” groups at 100 yards and 3” groups at 300 yards that’s slightly under 1MOA.
Now that we’ve established that....if you come back and tell me the rifle capable of 1MOA or better you bought “isn’t accurate” (let’s not even get started on accuracy vs. precision) I’m going to assume that no, you just can’t utilize it to it’s full potential. The limiting factor of most modern rifles is the person using it.
The OP claims the shooter and I claim the rifle/load
It’s ridiculous (stupid actually) to argue shooter versus rifle. Your accuracy is a total sum of all inputs combined.
If you can only hold 6” at a hundred yards, you’ll never shoot better than 6” no matter how good the rifle. If the rifle can only hold 6”, you’ll never shoot better than 6” no matter how well you shoot.
It’s not ridiculous at all because most people don’t know where the problem lies....
In engineering you can disassemble your three parts and measure them to find where the problem is. But how are you going to measure what size groups the ammo will shoot without the gun and shooter?
And I don’t disagree that that happens. What I HAVE SEEN in both teaching and selling is a larger number of people who buy better more precise firearms and still shoot the way they always did, and complain about the accuracy of the rifle, only to wash, rinse, repeat and decide to custom build a rifle that probably won’t help them.For the most part I agree with taliv. There was a time when I thought that my skills were the limiting factor to my shooting. Until I bought a more accurate rifle. You still have to have good technique. Where the skill comes in is reading wind and estimating range. With decent rifles, optics, and ammo it doesn't take long to start shooting well
It’s not ridiculous at all because most people don’t know where the problem lies. They just know the system is putting out 6” groups. We’re talking about where they should start first when trying to improve it.
It’s important because it is very difficult to measure components of the system individually. In engineering you can disassemble your three parts and measure them to find where the problem is. But how are you going to measure what size groups the ammo will shoot without the gun and shooter?
Exactly my point. Thanks.Like all sports, some people have more natural shooting ability than others. Yes, equipment makes a difference but you also need the skill to take full advantage of it.
Some shooters become high masters and go distinguished in a couple of years, while others never get beyond expert in their lifetime. And their rifles and ammunition aren't much different.
Jerry Miculek comes to mind.
I explained it poorly. Rifles that ar capable of such precision, tested at the factory and branded as such.don’t understand, if they are already getting sub MOA groups, does that mean they can’t utilize it to its full potential?
Yes and and that’s what I was trying to say.The ability of the shooter to control things is a real and greater variable than most any firear
Not saying they don’t exist. Plenty do.I have seen plenty of rifles that will not shoot MOA groups period. Barrel Harmonics, Action fit to the stock, bore rifling, poor crown etc.
Not as simplistic as just measuring individual parts of a mechanism but a good shoot can take the system apart, in a sense, and find the problem. A good bench and proper rests can all but eliminate the shooter from the equation.