So you think that Permitless Carry is legal in your state?

[Hasaf]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921#a_26

Here are the definitions from Federal Law.

(26) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(27) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

I do not believe a daycare would qualify.

Firstly, I am a teacher, so it is very likely that I will frequently be within 100 feet of a school. So, yes I have a Permit. That out of the way, I look at this and have sometimes wondered, but not enough to research it, about private schools.

Here is the thing that many may not be aware of; In many states, it is easier to homeschool if the family registers as a private school. It has to do with the transfer of credits and the like. In some states, it is so arduous to homeschool without registering that it is all but required.

This leads to the point that one can be within 1000 feet of a school and not even know that said school existed

Unfortunately, in IL-ANNOY, not only are permits required for CC, there is NO OC permitted. "No Guns" signs have the "force of law" if they are legally compliant signs. And the time frame to actually GET your permit (after paying online) can still be as long as 18-24 months. Then there is the $150 non-refundable application fee. If you are denied a CCP, the state keeps the money (naturally).

A bigger concern here, than the $150, is that any Permit denial has to be reported when applying in some states. This is going to be a red flag that is going to increase the likelihood of future denials.

Also in Missouri, one can carry into school building with a proper CCW if they have permission from the school board to do so.

Like that would ever happen.

I was at the last school board meeting and one of the board members was expressing dismay that there were non-district uniformed police carrying firearms while performing teaching duties (police officers teaching classes happens more often than you would expect). He wanted a vote to forbid uniformed from carrying firearms in the school buildings. All he got was an agreement from the superintendent to check on the practice with the insurance provider.

 

[JohnKSa]

Considering the situation as described is the driver did not intend to stop, but was stopped while in transit and the LEO created the situation, would this be in violation?

The offense occurs as soon as a person enters the zone. They are in violation immediately, not just when stopped.

There is a provision in the law for transporting a firearm through a gun free school zone, but the requirements are not compatible with carry for self-defense. It would have to be unloaded and locked up.

 

[dogtown tom]

Firstly, I am a teacher, so it is very likely that I will frequently be within 100 feet of a school. So, yes I have a Permit. That out of the way, I look at this and have sometimes wondered, but not enough to research it, about private schools.

Here is the thing that many may not be aware of; In many states, it is easier to homeschool if the family registers as a private school. It has to do with the transfer of credits and the like. In some states, it is so arduous to homeschool without registering that it is all but required.

What are some of those "many states"?
Here in Texas, a home school is considered a "private school" for the purposes of compulsory attendance only. There is no requirement under state law to register a private school.

I was at the last school board meeting and one of the board members was expressing dismay that there were non-district uniformed police carrying firearms while performing teaching duties (police officers teaching classes happens more often than you would expect). He wanted a vote to forbid uniformed from carrying firearms in the school buildings. All he got was an agreement from the superintendent to check on the practice with the insurance provider.

I've taught and coached for more than forty years in three states, and have never seen or heard of uniformed police officers teaching school. I find it difficult to believe that a full time school teacher moonlights as a full time police officer. If its a reserve or volunteer officer? He would be in violation of state law by wearing his uniform while not on duty.

 

[Insignificant bill]

Well knowing state and Federal firearms laws is important to protect yourself. Another reason to have an LTC even in a state with permitless carry.

 

[JohnKSa]

What are some of those "many states"?

Kansas requires home schools to register as private schools.

Kansas State Department of Education > 404ErrorDefault

Based on some poking around, it seems difficult to get general information in easy to access format that tells which states do and don't require registration and even harder to find which ones might make registration preferable based on regulations. I suppose that if someone thinks they can dodge around federal school zones while carrying without a permit, they should check their state laws to verify what is and isn't officially considered a school in their state. The federal statute is pretty vague ("...a <public, parochial or private school> which provides elementary or secondary education.") even without official registration, it's possible homeschools would qualify.

In practice, even without adding homeschools to the map, it's already going to be tricky enough to navigate just populating the map with the zones from the obvious "schools".

Here in Texas, a home school is considered a "private school" for the purposes of compulsory attendance only. There is no requirement under state law to register a private school.

Correct. TX, OK and a few others have virtually no laws regulating home schools. However, as mentioned, if TX calls a homeschool a "private school' then it would likely qualify as a school under the GFSZ law.

 

[Hasaf]

I agree that ignorance of the law is NOT an excuse. I brought up the training simply because the instructors do go over where one can or can not carry legally. Having a permit or not doesn't make one person better than another.

But I will keep my permit since it does give me more legal protection here in Missouri plus it allows me to carry outside of the state. To stay on subject, I can legally carry through a school zone and even cary onto school property with my Mo. CCW permit. Any weapon I have on school property must remain in my vehicle at all times. Also in Missouri, one can carry into school building with a proper CCW if they have permission from the school board to do so.

What are some of those "many states"?
Here in Texas, a home school is considered a "private school" for the purposes of compulsory attendance only. There is no requirement under state law to register a private school.



I've taught and coached for more than forty years in three states, and have never seen or heard of uniformed police officers teaching school. I find it difficult to believe that a full time school teacher moonlights as a full time police officer. If its a reserve or volunteer officer? He would be in violation of state law by wearing his uniform while not on duty.

Two cases. The first are some of the law enforcement prep classes at the high school. The other is emergency subs, they may be called in for an hour or so while the school looks for a regular sub.

 

[bearcreek]

Based on some poking around, it seems difficult to get general information in easy to access format that tells which states do and don't require registration and even harder to find which ones might make registration preferable based on regulations. I suppose that if someone thinks they can dodge around federal school zones while carrying without a permit, they should check their state laws to verify what is and isn't officially considered a school in their state. The federal statute is pretty vague ("...a <public, parochial or private school> which provides elementary or secondary education.") even without official registration, it's possible homeschools would qualify.

In practice, even without adding homeschools to the map, it's already going to be tricky enough to navigate just populating the map with the zones from the obvious "schools".Correct. TX, OK and a few others have virtually no laws regulating home schools. However, as mentioned, if TX calls a homeschool a "private school' then it would likely qualify as a school under the GFSZ law.

For those interested in more information on laws regulating homeschools. https://hslda.org/legal

 

[KYregular]

Just be sure you know that there's a catch. A catch that could be problematic under the right circumstances.

FEDERAL law makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1000 feet of a school.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#q

It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

Federal law defines a school zone to be any area within 1000 feet of a school.

There's an exception in the law for those with qualifying state licenses to carry. The law does not apply...

...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

There's also an exception to possessing a firearm on private property within the school zone that isn't part of the school, so you can carry on your own property if you live near a school.

Otherwise, unless you plan to ensure that you never get within 1000 feet of a school, you can't legally carry without a qualifying state permit--in ANY state. To comply with the law if you don't have a qualifying state issued permit to carry, your gun needs to be unloaded and locked up any time the federal gun free school zone law applies.

Just something to keep in mind.

For crying out loud, I tell people all the time to go on and get their state ccdw if for nothing else so you can cross state lines legally.

 

[usaral63]

The GFSZ statute is a poorly thought out act full of unintended consequences. Damned good example of what you get when fools legislate and even more willing fools prosecute!

 

[hso]

This case could be a good candidate to challenge the "Zone" law.

Montana Man Arrested by ATF for Carrying Gun in a School Zone

A US Attorney has charged a Montana man with carrying a firearm in a federal gun free school zone, under the Gun Free School Zone Act.

www.ammoland.com

 

[old lady new shooter]

This case could be a good candidate to challenge the "Zone" law.

Montana Man Arrested by ATF for Carrying Gun in a School Zone

A US Attorney has charged a Montana man with carrying a firearm in a federal gun free school zone, under the Gun Free School Zone Act.

www.ammoland.com

Thanks for posting this article. I saw the case discussed on one of the guntube channels where it was stated he was carrying in his front yard, which would have come within the private property exception. On the sidewalk in front of his house is no longer private property!

 

[bearcreek]

Thanks for posting this article. I saw the case discussed on one of the guntube channels where it was stated he was carrying in his front yard, which would have come within the private property exception. On the sidewalk in front of his house is no longer private property!

Folks in the area stated that he was carrying on the sidewalk. https://www.krtv.com/news/montana-a...ighbor-near-billings-school-has-been-arrested

I have no personal knowledge of the case, but based on what I'm reading about the guy, his actions seem to have been intentionally antagonistic at best.

 

[KYregular]

Folks in the area stated that he was carrying on the sidewalk. https://www.krtv.com/news/montana-a...ighbor-near-billings-school-has-been-arrested

I have no personal knowledge of the case, but based on what I'm reading about the guy, his actions seem to have been intentionally antagonistic at best.

I agree with a right to carry anywhere, but it burns me up when some idiot is walking down a public area wearing a dress and packing an AR15 (actually happened) saying "look at meeeee!"! Its not quite on par with BLM but still makes us who are responsibke gun owners look bad.

 

[Atavar]

Folks in the area stated that he was carrying on the sidewalk. https://www.krtv.com/news/montana-a...ighbor-near-billings-school-has-been-arrested

I have no personal knowledge of the case, but based on what I'm reading about the guy, his actions seem to have been intentionally antagonistic at best.

This will be one for the lawyers. The sidewalk is technically your property, you have to mow the grass between the sidewalk and the street. You have to clear the snow from the sidewalk. You can be sued for injuries happening on the sidewalk. The city just has a right of way to use the sidewalk.

 

[bearcreek]

This will be one for the lawyers. The sidewalk is technically your property, you have to mow the grass between the sidewalk and the street. You have to clear the snow from the sidewalk. You can be sued for injuries happening on the sidewalk. The city just has a right of way to use the sidewalk.

That depends on the municipality, don't know about that particular location, but yeah, I imagine that may factor in.

 

[Atavar]

If the city owns the sidewalk it must keep the sidewalk clear and mow the berm. I don’t know anyplace that does that.

 

[JohnKSa]

The sidewalk is technically your property, you have to mow the grass between the sidewalk and the street.

Sidewalks are generally public property (part of the right of way that includes the street) although that may not be true in all areas. I was unable to find a specific legal cite for Montana, but was able to verify that they are public property in several other states I checked.

If the city owns the sidewalk it must keep the sidewalk clear and mow the berm. I don’t know anyplace that does that.

While that seems reasonable, it is not correct. Sidewalks are part of the public right of way and are therefore public property in your state--and in many others. The fact that the adjacent property owner is required to mow the grass between the sidewalk and the street and may be responsible or partially responsible for maintaining the sidewalks does not mean that they are private property.

The law is not always intuitive and therefore making assumptions about it based on what seems to be common sense or logical reasoning can result in incorrect conclusions. Incorrect conclusions, when it comes to the law, can have severe repercussions. Don't guess when it comes to the law. Don't assume, don't try to reason it out if you don't know the statutes. Don't give others advice based on guesses, assumptions and "logical reasoning". In this case, I would bet that the property owner thought he was still on his own property. He wasn't. He's likely going to lose his right to own firearms and may spend time in federal prison.

 

[old lady new shooter]

This will be one for the lawyers. The sidewalk is technically your property, you have to mow the grass between the sidewalk and the street. You have to clear the snow from the sidewalk. You can be sued for injuries happening on the sidewalk. The city just has a right of way to use the sidewalk.

OTOH, if the sidewalk cracks, the municipality is responsible to repair it.

 

[Atavar]

If the sidewalk is yours you could fence and gate it.

 

[JohnKSa]

OTOH, if the sidewalk cracks, the municipality is responsible to repair it.

In some places. Not everywhere.

If the sidewalk is yours you could fence and gate it.

Or remove it entirely. Or carry a firearm on it even in a federal gun free school zone with impunity...

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

A co-worker and I have discussed the issue of school zones and a lot of things came up during it.

First of all, it's not 2,000 feet in diameter (not radius). 1,000 feet from a school doesn't reflect 1,000 feet from the center of the school building...or the outer edges of the building. It starts at the edge of the school grounds. And some school grounds are quite large in and of themselves. JohnKSa listed this earlier. So if the school grounds span a city block, guess what? That diameter can easily exceed half a mile.

And don't forget...it's ANY school which provides elementary or secondary education...which includes church schools performing these functions.


LEGAL QUESTION:

How is reprocity established within a given state? Is this by statute or by whim?

I picked VA to look at because while SC is home, work is in VA. Virginia has a statute for this (18.2-308.014 Reciprocity). This states the conditions under which the state of Virginia will accept the permit of another state as valid. In part, it says that the issuing state has to have a means of instantaneously verifying their permits, that the holder of the permit has to have a government issued photo ID, and that the individual cannot have had a previous revocation of a VA permit.

Since all states which issue carry permits require a verification that individuals applying are legally qualified under law to carry, would a state statute (law) accepting reprocity with another state defacto mean being licensed by that state? VA, in this instance, does in fact also cover law enforcement specifically being able to instantaneously verify said permits are indeed valid. After all, VA is saying that people with valid permits from specific states are, in fact, licensed by virginia statute to carry in the state of VA.

For reference:

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter7/section18.2-308.014/

 

[JohnKSa]

Keep in mind that reciprocity can't exempt a person from the gun free school zone law. According to the federal law, the permit must be issued by the state (or political entity within the state) in which the school is actually situated. I can carry in a significant number of states with my TX permit, but the TX permit only exempts me from the gun free school zone law in TX. In other states, I would have to avoid school zones to comply with the law even if my permit is otherwise valid for carry there.

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that if a state issues carry permits without LE performing any checks on the person receiving the permit, then the permit does not exempt a person from the gun free school zone law. Here's the exception:

does not apply to the possession of a firearm—​

...​

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;​

I haven't tried to determine if there are any places that issue carry permits without LE doing any checks.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....The law is not always intuitive and therefore making assumptions about it based on what seems to be common sense or logical reasoning can result in incorrect conclusions. Incorrect conclusions, when it comes to the law, can have severe repercussions. Don't guess when it comes to the law. Don't assume, don't try to reason it out if you don't know the statutes. Don't give others advice based on guesses, assumptions and "logical reasoning"....

We say that here over and over again, and it bears repeating.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I live within 1,000 feet of school property.
Can I legally leave my driveway and drive down a public road while armed?

 

[old lady new shooter]

I live within 1,000 feet of school property.
Can I legally leave my driveway and drive down a public road while armed?

Do you have a carry permit issued by your state?