It 's the same here in Missouri too. Not everyone knows where they can or cannot carry especially after permits carry went into effect. At least with the need for a permit everyone had to take a mandatory class that went over all the places you can or can not carry,
So you think that Permitless Carry is legal in your state?
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
It 's the same here in Missouri too. Not everyone knows where they can or cannot carry especially after permits carry went into effect. At least with the need for a permit everyone had to take a mandatory class that went over all the places you can or can not carry,
Same potential problem as people who carry under the auspices of a permitless carry law. If things go wrong and they are somehow caught with a gun in a federal school zone, they could be prosecuted.
I don't think that there's a lot of pro-active enforcement of this law, but given that it's a federal crime it is something that people need to be aware of. If the stars line up wrong for a person, it could really put them in a sticky situation, legally speaking.
Fatcat3
Member
Ignorance is no excuse of the law. Nor is they any excuse to have mandatory training of the law and then permitting to exercise a constitutional right.
Just my take on the subject. (can't find the news story now) Some time back a "prohibited person" was arrested in a stolen vehicle, driving erratically, with drugs in the car, and a weapon in his possession, and the stop happened to be with in 1000 feet of a school. The having a gun with in 1000ft of a school charge was added under the idea of charge him everything at him but the unlawful carnal knowledge that you can. Then the "legal Experts" who make their money by spouting off, trying to stay relevant and in the limelight, grabbed on to this idea and started warning everyone and his brother of this "danger". Then the Chicken little the sky is falling crowd took up the cry. Add to that the "if you're not as well trained as I am or using what I think is best" then you are unsafe, under trained, shouldn't carry a firearm, people (friends like that who needs enemies) beating this drum. All in all. MUCH TO DO ABOUT NOTHING.
If they want to get you, they will find something else.
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree that ignorance of the law is NOT an excuse. I brought up the training simply because the instructors do go over where one can or can not carry legally. Having a permit or not doesn't make one person better than another.
But I will keep my permit since it does give me more legal protection here in Missouri plus it allows me to carry outside of the state. To stay on subject, I can legally carry through a school zone and even cary onto school property with my Mo. CCW permit. Any weapon I have on school property must remain in my vehicle at all times. Also in Missouri, one can carry into school building with a proper CCW if they have permission from the school board to do so.
If they want to get you, this is exactly the kind of "something else" they would try to find.
What brought this up was that I was looking through arrest records in my area and noted an arrest (apparently from a traffic stop) where the only charge listed was carrying a firearm. I thought that was weird given that we have permitless carry and so I looked at the street location and found it was near a school. Started digging and this was the result.
Now, I have no way of knowing what exactly went on during that traffic stop, but given that no other charges were listed, it seems clear that at least some cops know about the federal law and are willing to use it under some circumstances--not just as a "pile on the charges" option. As such, it's good for people to be aware of this potential pitfall. Not because it's a likely outcome but because the potential consequences can be a significant problem.
Not, I suspect, for the person whose arrest record I read.
You're certainly free to ignore the problem--a lot of people are unaware of it and we're not hearing about tons of arrests and prosecutions. The odds are not high that it would ever be an issue, as I think I've suggested a few times now. But it never hurts to know about potential problems--while it can hurt to be ignorant of them.
stonebuster
Member
I may change my usual driving route that goes through a school zone now I know this could be a big problem. You never know when you might get pulled over.Thanks for posting.
Of course we have no way of knowing if any of that actually happened, or if something like it did happen, if the incident is fully and accurately reported.
The point is that uncorroborated, undocumented stories are useless for the purposes of understanding what the law is or how it works. These anecdotes aren't helpful, and no conclusions may fruitfully be drawn from them.
Please note that in the Legal Forum Guidelines we say:
CapnMac
Member
Well, we here in Texas also have that weird fillip where, if you have a firearm in your car, it cannot be in open view. Cased, concealed, or holstered--all tucked into the language about how you cannot be engaged in criminal activity while driving.
Not a bad idea, but do keep in mind that there are many places across the country where one can be violating this while driving through a city on an interstate, or on any number of other roads where you'd have no reasonable way of knowing that a school was near. I observed three different individuals violate this law just today and I would bet everything I own that not one of them had the slightest idea that they were breaking a law.
Last edited:
.308 Norma
Member
Yeppers, and the in the case of the high school and middle school I mentioned in my first post, neither one of them is even in a city, yet the interstate that passes by them is closer than 1,000ft away, and the "old" highway on the other side of them is even closer.
Our state goes through this 7/1.
The scary thing is plenty of people already don't have permits, but have guns.
Where I used to live, there are schools on each of the roads between our town and the two interstate exits. Same thing with the Turnpike exit. There might be a way to make it with a lot of zigzags, but most people are going to pass at least a private school at a church.
So if you drive into town from the gun show, you're in violation. If you leave to go hunting, you're in violation. If you leave to go to a shooting competition you're in violation. If you just keep a pistol in the glovebox for safety when you leave town for work, you're in violation of federal law.
Probably happens 10,000 times a day just in that one county. Permitless carry makes this a slightly larger problem, but it's always been a problem.
The scary thing is plenty of people already don't have permits, but have guns.
Where I used to live, there are schools on each of the roads between our town and the two interstate exits. Same thing with the Turnpike exit. There might be a way to make it with a lot of zigzags, but most people are going to pass at least a private school at a church.
So if you drive into town from the gun show, you're in violation. If you leave to go hunting, you're in violation. If you leave to go to a shooting competition you're in violation. If you just keep a pistol in the glovebox for safety when you leave town for work, you're in violation of federal law.
Probably happens 10,000 times a day just in that one county. Permitless carry makes this a slightly larger problem, but it's always been a problem.
F-111 John
Member
If you drive into town from the gun show, you may be in violation.
18 USC 922(q)(2)(B) lists the exceptions (emphasis added):
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
So with the exception of your glovebox example, if you have the firearm unloaded and in a locked container, you can legally traverse the school zone.(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
F-111 John
Member
See 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(iv) in the post above yours.
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
CapnMac
Member
From memory (potentially faulty), those few JROTC programs that still even permit shooting activities have been using NG armories & ranges for at least the last couple of decades anyway.
old lady new shooter
Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2015
- Messages
- 30,794
I keep my driver license, proof of insurance, copy of registration, and carry permit together in a plastic baggie, so if I were to get stopped I can just pull the baggie out in a moment, no having to fiddle around, and hand it to the officer when s/he reaches my window. I understand that when you present the permit the officer may ask if you are carrying, and if you're only being stopped for something like a non-functioning tail light the officer is likely to just tell you not to touch it during the stop.
dogtown tom
Member
Not true as of September 2021. If in a holster, it may be in plain view.
http://faq.sll.texas.gov/questions/42809
dogtown tom
Member
Careful. This federal law doesn't have anything to do with the "school zone" signage you may see while driving.
Anything within 1000ft of the school is the school zone.
Can't say about that, but as we've been discussing, this is a law that is widely ignored. In my area, gun shows are held inside some of the local public schools and lots of shows are held at fairgrounds, many of which are within 1000 ft. of one or more schools. These shows are certainly no secret to local, state or federal law enforcement. They simply intentionally ignore or are unaware of this law.
Insignificant bill
Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2019
- Messages
- 1,225
If it is in a holster it can be in the open on the seat next to you in your motor vehicle.
CapnMac
Member
Nope, out of the State's "Military Department"--no connection to federal military at all (other than hiring retired Prior Service as they can).
I'll agree with you both on the letter of the statute--but, I've been surprised to learn about half the LEO I am in contact with do not know this at all.
But, that's also true about the FGFSCZ rules, too.
plainsdrifter
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2021
- Messages
- 607
Whats weird is theres a LGS across the street from an elementary school here. The street is one lane each direction. Both the school and gun shop have been there for 60 years. So if that law is the case in AZ everyone that goes to the gunshop including the gun shop employees can be arrested.
The law is Federal.
Insignificant bill
Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2019
- Messages
- 1,225
It says open carry is allowed anyway you want as long as the gun is in a holster. I said when Constitutional carry passed that criminals would still be criminals the police would still be ignorant about gun laws and law abiding gun owners would still be law abiding.
Similar threads
