Soldiers and hearing protection

[Flak_Jakett]

Mr. Z wrote:

Combat can occur in a multitude of environments, and while some environments rely much more heavily on your ability to HEAR an enemy FIRST in order to take action, some environments rely more on SEEING the enemy first.

Hearing the enemy isn't the biggest loss from earplugs. When most of our combat maneuvers are in play they are fast and furious full of noise and probably no chance to hear the enemy anyway, except "AAAAGHHAHGHH!!!" The biggest loss when wearing earplugs is communicating with your fellow team members. Move, shoot, and communicate are like legs of a triangle. If you take the ability to do any of those things out then you are flat lined.

 

[Prince Yamato]

So from what I gather, the ear-plugs can be a hinderance. But what about silencers. AR-15s and Beretta 92s (or M9s) can be easily equipped. Couldn't the money spent on replacing lost earplugs be put towards silencers on the rifles?

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Speaking of the best (don't mean to hijack the thread but I have to get this off my chest) shouldn't our veterans get the BEST medical care for their service?

Then why is it that vets that have to rely on the VA get crappy medical care?

I'd think we as Americans would be incensed about that. I'd like to give that issue national attention.

 

[CDRODA396]

I retired in Oct 05, but during my trips overseas my unit bought the Peltors which worked with our radios...single net for most, dual net for a few key personnel...they worked great. Definately take some getting used to, especially when hooked up to a radio and lower is jabbering in one ear and higher is jabbering in the other while your driver is yelling at you about something else!

The Army field tested a very similar headset with a "bone mike" in the top pad of the headset, there were some problems and they had to be addressed. They are now "supposedly" fixed, I think by two manufactureres, and eventually all soldiers will be issued a set of "peltor-like" sound suppressing headsets that will allow normal conversation, and defeat any sound lounder than, I think, 82db. How long that takes I bet Vegas wouldnt give odds on!

If you want to get them "First," you have to be willing to do what it takes to get into one of the more "Elite" units...its just the nature of the color of Army money!

 

[MrZ]

"In the first instance that you mention, the result is that wearing earplugs would be detrimental...and in the second, would have no effect at all. So...what's your point?"

My point is that there ARE times when earplug use is a viable option, however, most soldiers feel otherwise. Directing MG fire without earplugs will pretty much make you deaf for a spell, as would being near any AT weapon when it is launched, or being near high explosive when it detonates. Wearing plugs offers protection from the temporary deafness resulting from those conditions, however, their use will reduce your ability to hear. So you might as well wear them because you will be deaf when the game kicks off anyway.

"The biggest loss when wearing earplugs is communicating with your fellow team members..."

Simple verbal commands, and visual signals are not effected, and complex commands are best given using personal contact with the reciever anyway. Even as a weapons squad leader with 3 guns on line sustaining fire, the odd AT4 or carl-G going down range, I could still communicate simple commands to the gun teams, and send and recieve info over the radio(though I kept my handmike right up to my ear). I could do this because I wore earplugs, which saved my hearing from the effects of sustained fire. The only time I wouldn't want earplugs is while doing dismounted patrols/movement in terrain with cover and concealment (jungle/woods etc).

bought the Peltors which worked with our radios...

I used peltors ONCE... It seemed that EVERY time I made personal contact with one of the lads to either pass on or recieve coms, the damn radio would kick in and I couldn't hear who I was trying to talk to... After that, I went back to the tried and true earplugs and "handmike stuck in the ear" technique. Worked for me.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Army 68-72, RVN 70-71. I used to be able to hear crickets chirping from incredible distances. Now they could be under my chair and I'd never notice. Artillery wiped out my high frequency hearing. What? is one of my most used words. I hear people talking but can't make out what they are saying unless I can watch their lips. All the consonant sounds are high frequency and when you lose them, you hear talking but it is gibberish. It is especially difficult with women or children, even more so when they have lazy diction.

 

[The Real Wyatt]

Gunshots must affect different people differently. No doubt there is some association with gunshots and hearing loss, too many studies confirm it.

I'm well past sixty and have shot guns all my life, beginning at six years old. I've never used any hearing protection at all and still hear as well as ANY well past sixty individual.

I spent MANY years in the USMC and shot probably over a hundred thousand rounds thru an M1 Garand. We didn't use hearing protectiion in those days. My hearing acuity is still within normal boundaries for people my age.

From my perspective I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

[MrZ]

"Army 68-72, RVN 70-71. I used to be able to hear crickets chirping from incredible distances. Now they could be under my chair and I'd never notice."

Sir, my Grandfather is the same way. I went to an indoor range with him back when I was a lad, and he wouldn't come inside...even with double hearing protection, because he didn't want to worsen his hearing.

I spent MANY years in the USMC and shot probably over a hundred thousand rounds thru an M1 Garand. We didn't use hearing protectiion in those days. My hearing acuity is still within normal boundaries for people my age.

Sir, that is because God loves marines and has accorded you his blessings.

Thank you both for your service. You gave us youngins' a proud heritage to try to live up to.

 

[Flak_Jakett]

MrZ Wrote:

Even as a weapons squad leader with 3 guns on line sustaining fire, the odd AT4 or carl-G going down range, I could still communicate simple commands to the gun teams

That is a good point. When you are providing the base of fire simple commands are all that is needed. With the amount of noise, voice commands become almost useless anyway. Especially with AT weapons and 240Bs which are quite abit louder than the M60 was.

When you get past that, however, simple commands and non-verbal communication hardly ever give enough info in a constantly chaotic and fluid battle field. Even in fire support sometimes it is necessary to give detailed direction to shift fires to a sector which was previously not staked for fires. Fighting in built up areas has become quite prevelant as well. During that fighting communication is KEY. Simple commands don't cut it during MOUT. Therefore earplugs get stowed in the ass pack or cargo pockets. We used to use those ear plug cases, but after we all lost about a dozen of 'em we went the easy route.

 

[Shweboner]

I always use hearing protection of some kind...

Quite often I will forget my plugs at home and not find out unitl I am ready to fire... My solution...


Brass. Fire off two rounds from a .223, 9mm, .38/.357, etc and stick them in your ears. It is not as effective as foams or muffs but it works comfortably

The best part is that you can still hear people talking and other light sounds yet it is enough noise reduction to make gunfire tolerable.

 

[weregunner]

Sound suppressed weapons have many problems for the regular soldier. Suppresors are expensive to manufacture and upkeep of the suppressor is time consuming, as well as labor intensive for the user.Then there is the fact the sound suppressor slows the bullets down to low velocity,which have to have a chance of causing serious wounds to the enemy.The slower the bullet,the less physical impact on the target.Rifle ballistics rely on a fast moving bullet to cause serious damage in tissue.There are a lot of factors here to go into this.Mass,energy size of bullet,shape,and velocity all play a part in the performance of the ammo.Sound suppressors{silencers} slow and change the above mentioned characteristics of what the bullet can accomplish.Silencers on pistols make them more bulky and the added wieght makes the pistol harder to use.The length of suppressors adds many inches to the gun in question.Silencers are also limited to the number of shots that can be fired through them before major overhaul is needed or it has to be discarded.Soldiers need to have the ammo they use to terminate totally the enemy trying to kill them.Fanatical enemies will try to take one with them if they are fatally hit or wounded.This has been recorded down through history many times, including our Marines stint in the Phillipines in the early 1900s.The Moros worked themselves up into a state where pain and injury had no effect on them before they engaged our troops.Drugs to block pain were also used by the Moros. This meant that they could absorb tremendous punishment and physical injury and still mutilate or kill someone.If one reads their military history they will find many more tales like this all the way back to ancient times.One has to stop the aggressor right now.Movies have distorted completely what goes on in a real firefight.One cannot shoot one part of the body under the extreme stress of combat.Spray and pray to hope that the target will be hit and cease aggression are make believe.Firepower is needed.Aimed fire is effective for trained troops in stopping enemy action and our troops are trained to shoot and hit the enemy,rather than the shoot the AK-47 and hope something hits a target.That isn't to say the terrorists aren't dangerous.The bullet with to whom it may concern on it can kill just as well as aimed fire if one is not careful. I retired from the USAF in 95 after 20 years.I am not an infantryman by any stretch of the imagination but us support troops were up front moving supplies so we have to have the same basic ideas and training the regular soldiers on the line have.Survival is key. If iI am off on anything can the real fulltimers who were in the thick of it correct and add accordingly.

 

[hso]

shouldn't our veterans get the BEST medical care for their service?

Not applicable to hearing damage since there is no "medical care" for it.

 

[wingnutx]

1. I was issued the double-ended earplugs when I deployed to Iraq. They work well, and I can hear quite well when I have them in 'tactical mode'.

2. VA healthcare is not crappy at all, in my experience. It is time-consuming, just like all government services, but the facilities here in Phoenix are very nice and modern. Combat vets get 2 years free healthcare upon demobilization (I'm a reservist) plus of course lifetime for service-related injuries.

We mostly get issued very good equipment. It's not perfect, but I'm tired of seeing every shortcoming (real or imageined) inflated into a political bludgeon.