Something between 7.62x39 and .308

[Hookeye]

BTW, they made Ruger #1's in .30-30 Win.
1A model I believe.
Hate the .30-30...........always have.
Wish they made an A in .35 Rem.

 

[Newtosavage]

Why do you hate the .30-30?

 

[Newtosavage]

I read "deer and hogs"............what is a trophy buck in the OP's area size wise?

Is this the smaller southern stuff, midwest where 200# dressed is no big deal..........or are we after those brutes in Canada?

Good question. Deer in my area seldom go more than 150# on the hoof, but I've hunted deer in Illinois, Missouri, New Hampshire and Mass. as well.

 

[Hookeye]

.30-30 win ...........I'm not into lever guns or westerns, and think the cartridge to be unpleasing to the eye.

Also..............that magical 300 yard limit.......


If I'm hunting where that's a possibility I'll probably have a Harris bipod.
Piece of cake.

With today's laser rangefinders............that 300 should be no limit.

 

[Hookeye]

An OK deer where I hunt dresses out over 150#.
A good deer around 200.
Some go a bit past that.

 

[BigBore45]

the 30-40 craig was a good one

so is the 303 brit.

and the 7.62X39 is alot better than a 30-30 when it comes to pointed bullets

the 6.5 swed will load up to 160 grain bullets

 

[Newtosavage]

Hook, if a 300-yard shot - even from a bipod - is "no limit" for you, you are the exception and not the rule I can assure you.

As for the .30-30, I think the levergun at first helped, and then later hindered it's acceptance in the deer woods. You can probably chart the .30-30's popularity into a pre-scope and post-scope world. Before scopes were decent quality and affordable, I'm sure a lot of folks reached for their lever action 30-30's because they offered some advantage over a bolt-action. Once scopes became popular and accessible, the bolt action overtook the lever gun, esp. since lever actions just weren't designed to be scoped.

I am just surprised that at some point some manufacturer didn't produce a rimless version of the .30-30 and offer it in a bolt action. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons for this though.

 

[Newtosavage]

and the 7.62X39 is alot better than a 30-30 when it comes to pointed bullets

If the 30-30 is limited to flat nosed bullets, then I would agree the 7.62x39 can catch it, but if both are loaded with pointed bullets, the 30-30 will always be ahead of the russian round simply due to more case capacity.

the 6.5 swed will load up to 160 grain bullets

Another of my favorites. I've owned two of them now, and they are killers of the first order. Might be my next caliber for my Savage, in fact.

 

[Olympus]

I'll be hunting a farmland lease this coming fall and will have the ability to take shots at deer at a good 500 yards or more. That being said, I think the 300 yard mark is unofficially the naximum distance of what a good deal of the deer hunting population would be willing to take. Most of us, myself included, don't have the ability to even practice beyond 300 yards. And while this fall I'll be able to shoot well beyond 300 yards, I'm certainly I'll only be watching at that distance. Unless the deer is a trophy, I would even pass on a shot at 250 yards. I have plenty of days to hunt in hopes of a better opportunity and if one never presents itself, well Walmart is just down the road and they have a meat dept.

 

[ThomasT]

I am just surprised that at some point some manufacturer didn't produce a rimless version of the .30-30 and offer it in a bolt action. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons for this though.

The 30 remington was a rimless version of the 30-30 and offered in the remington model 30 rifle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_30

Here is some better 30-30 loads from leverguns.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030again.htm

IIRC the 30 remington uses the same dies and load data with a different shell holder.

 

[<*(((><]

As Newtosavage stated, the 7.62x39 and 300 AAC/Whisper/BO won't be able to touch a 30-30 bolt action (or Lever action with the FTX bullets) with new high BC bullets strictly due to their case capacity limitations.

Case Capacities
7.62x39mm = 35.6 grains of H2O
300 Blackout = 25.4 grains of H2O
30-30 Win = 45 grains of H2O

Maximum SAAMI Pressure
7.62x39mm = 51,490 psi
300 Blackout = 55,000 psi
30-30 Win = 42,000 psi

Hornady's Offerings
Hornady 7.62x39mm 123gr SST = 2,040 FPS, 1,136 Ft/Lbs. (100 yards) (20" barrel)
Hornady 300 Blackout 125gr HP = 1,932 FPS, 1,036 Ft/Lbs. (100 yards) (16" barrel)
Hornady 30-30 160gr FTX = 2,400 FPS, 1,643 FT/Lbs. (100 yards) (24" barrel)

In comparison to the 7.62x39mm the 30-30 Win will have 23.2% more bullet mass, 15% more velocity, and 30.8% more energy than the 7.62x39mm;
In comparison to the 300 Blackout the 30-30 Win will have 21.9% more bullet mass, 19.5% more velocity, and 37.0% more energy than the 300 Blackout.

Now this is just going onto Hornady's website and picking their factory cartridges, so someone may have a better result in reloading than this but as far as some factory loads, it's not even a comparison between the three. Now one has to take in account barrel length, thank you R.W. Dale, but I still don't think that they will be able to touch the 30-30.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've had a 26" single shot 30/30 and a 26" shilen barreled savage in 7.62x39

Loaded to maximum potential the difference in velocity is not much. Only 100 to at most 150 fps.

Published ballistics for 30/30 ammunition do not apply to a 20" lever gun and in most cases are wildly optimistic I've cronied Remington 170 grain ammo from a savage 340 that didn't crack 1800 fps from a 22" tube

Barrel length must be accounted for when cartridge comparisons are made

 

[R.W.Dale]

30-30 low wall
170g Remington
2264
2315
2297
2272
2270
2335
Avg 2292
ES 71

Win 170
2199
2216
2207
2213
2234
Avg 2213
ES 35

These figures were from a THIRTY inch 30/30 barrel

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=409365

Compared to some of my previous testing with 7.62x39mm

Below is 150g federal 30/30 ammunition from a 26" TC encore

30-30 encore
150g federal
2480-2458-2473-2475

Or another way to look at this is a 16" 308 is more powerful than a 30" 30/30. That's the effect pressure has on performance. And that's the beauty of 308. It will hit the requirements the op set forth but you don't have to have an unwieldy 20"+ barrel to do it

 

[Newtosavage]

RW, I'm not an experienced handloader. Is the 10 grains difference in case capacity just not that big a deal then? Seems to me it should be, esp. if it were offered in a modern bolt action.

 

[R.W.Dale]

RW, I'm not an experienced handloader. Is the 10 grains difference in case capacity just not that big a deal then? Seems to me it should be, esp. if it were offered in a modern bolt action.

Pressure is a bigger indicator than case capacity. It's how 308 basically matches 30/06 in a much smaller case.

It's also why that in similar barrel lengths 300blk can darn near match 7.62x39mm

 

[Newtosavage]

So what makes the 30-30 not able to handle (or generate) the same pressures?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Sammi and brass strength assuming the gun is up to the added pressure

It's a much safer proposal to load an over performing cartridge down to a target velocity than to try to take one that falls short up to it

 

[Newtosavage]

I'm still unclear. Why can the 7.62x39 handle more pressure than the 30-30?

 

[R.W.Dale]

I'm still unclear. Why can the 7.62x39 handle more pressure than the 30-30?

The firearms it's chambered for are designed to handle more pressure primarily. When SAAMI sets a maximum pressure standard they must account for all firearms so chambered. 30-30 dates back to the 1890's when metallurgy was primitive at best.

You really only have four options after that.

1- stick with published pressure tested loads
2-buy pressure testing equipment and load to the platforms potential
3-overload and just guess at pressure
4-download a more powerful cartridge

If you are wanting to be in between 30-30 which option sounds safest and most cost effective to you?

 

[Newtosavage]

That's what I figured. That's also why it seems to me that a cartridge aimed at the typical deer hunter in something squarely between 7.62x39 and .308 makes a lot of sense to me. Modern bolt action (or Browning BLR), full pressure, 40-45 grains case capacity, 10-12 lbs. recoil, etc.

 

[Newtosavage]

Just came across a thread that mentioned the CZ 527 action would be available for sale in the U.S. and that it might make the perfect "mini mauser" in 6.8 SPC. Can anyone confirm that? Are they selling them here now?

 

[Olympus]

If they are, they're not advertising it and I've never seen a 527 action only in the wild.

If be more interested in a 527 in 6.5 Grendel. I know Howa is going to producing their "mini action" bolt rifles in 6.5 Grendel and x39 and they should be coming to market mid-summer this year.

 

[Newtosavage]

Sweet. I'll keep an eye out for them! One of the few things I don't like about that CZ527 is the magazine extending below the stock like it does. Hopefully the Howa will be flush and stagger the rounds.

Just checked the ballistics on the 6.5 Grendel and holy cow. That looks like the perfect lightweight, super short-action deer caliber. Another 100 yards of effective range beyond my 7.62x39, but the same size and weight gun with likely 10-11 lbs. recoil. Very cool.

 

[justin22885]

You got me. I was careless. Please forgive me. I will try to never let it happen again. I personally like the 8mm. I think it is a great round for white tail here in WI.

i like 8mm mauser too, my favorite long action cartridge

 

[adcoch1]

I saw a cz527 action on gun broker that was supposed to be one of the first action only sales through a dealer. It was last week. And I read somewhere that January was the expected release date. But it was 500 bucks...