Something between 7.62x39 and .308

[R.W.Dale]

My longest shot on deer to date was from a 20" 7.62x39 ar15 shooting 125 grain Nosler ballistic tips around 2400fps. The rangefinder said 278 yards before I pulled the bang switch.

I also like 125 grain bullets in 30-06 loaded to north of 3k. Destructive, sure. But I don't eat ribs anyway and tracking is a breeze, just follow the 3' wide blood and bits of deer trail the 20 feet or so the deer jumps before hitting the ground.

 

[Newtosavage]

Dean, I'm not as familiar with AR platforms as many here are, but what's the carry weight of your 6.8? Every AR I've looked up is surprisingly heavy to me.

But I agree that 6.8 round would make a superb deer caliber. Dare I say "Ideal?" It's probably close to perfect as anything I've seen.

So, this thread and some of the responses have really challenged me to think more about the parameters I would set for an "ideal deer rifle" and that's a good thing.

Here are a few:

1) Generates ~1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards.
2) Less than 7.5 lbs, with optic/sight.
3) 40" in total length or less.
4) Less than 12 lbs. felt recoil
5) 4 round repeater capacity
6) Realistic 1-MOA accuracy

 

[Newtosavage]

R.W., I hope to get my 7.62x39, 125-grain NBT's close to 2400 fps someday! Do you recall the load data for that round?

It's pretty amazing to me how close that little russian round can get to my 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yard threshold. I would have never suspected that from such a small round.

 

[R.W.Dale]

R.W., I hope to get my 7.62x39, 125-grain NBT's close to 2400 fps someday! Do you recall the load data for that round?

It's pretty amazing to me how close that little russian round can get to my 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yard threshold. I would have never suspected that from such a small round.

I'm not going to share it directly but it's an old Speer load for aa1680

Any other powder for sub 150's for the cartridge is a waste of time

 

[R.W.Dale]

The trick to making an AR right is barrel profile and handgaurds.

Most barrels are heavy profile for no other reason than it saves a machining step. I'm building a 300blk on a 16" light profile barrel and a poly lower, I will be disappointed if it weighs over 6lbs

 

[Newtosavage]

An AR in 6.8 that weighs less than 7 lbs. scoped and shoots sub-MOA to 300 yards will get my interest. So far, I've not seen one that can do what so many modern budget bolt actions can already do in the deer woods, and I'm well beyond worrying about the "cool" factor.

 

[R.W.Dale]

An AR in 6.8 that weighs less than 7 lbs. scoped and shoots sub-MOA to 300 yards will get my interest. So far, I've not seen one that can do what so many modern budget bolt actions can already do in the deer woods, and I'm well beyond worrying about the "cool" factor.

If you build it right an ar will typically weigh less than a bolt action

But the lightweight market is under served, you have to build it yourself. The only AR's that have a place with me afield are because they're so light.

 

[strambo]

Yup, you'd have to build it, but it wouldn't be too hard. You could start here: https://www.rainierarms.com/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=gwacs

Then just source the upper and barrel.

 

[VoodooMountain]

Op, forgot to mention if you are dead set on 30 Caliber look at the 300 icl tornado. I don't know about the velocities listed in the link as they seem...errr optimistic, but a low pressure round with257 Bob parent case would likely fit your criteria quite well. There are also books for sale that list literally every form of wildcat you could think of. It may the wheels turning.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICL_cartridges

 

[Newtosavage]

There is certainly a place for heavier rifles, but not for me in the woods. I've carried a model 94 30-30 for so long that anything heavier than that is really a PITA to me for an all-day hunt. Typically I'll cover 2-5 miles in a day. I've learned that 7 lbs. is just about my cutoff for a hunting rifle when I'm on my feet.

 

[Newtosavage]

Voodoo, I am a .30 cal fan, but I wouldn't say I'm "dead set" on it for any other reason than the convenience of being able to load .30-cal. bullets in all my rifles.

I'm a fan of heavier bullets that aren't traveling at light speed for deer though. I don't see any reason to explode a deer.

 

[Gtscotty]

Someone needs to let the millions of Americans hunting with horrendously overpowered .260's, 7mm-08's, .308s, .270's, and .30-06's know that they need to step in line with what newtosavage likes if they don't want to spend all their time missing deer (can't practice with those cannons you know), or if they are actually lucky enough to hit a deer having to pick up all the exploded chunks from the forest floor. It's going to be a bloodbath next November, I tell ya, unless someone spreads the good word.

 

[Newtosavage]

I'm doing what little I can Gtsnarky.

As I said before, if my observations and traditional rules of thumb offend you, then you are probably the exception and not the rule.
However, if you spend a lot of time around deer hunters, you would soon realize the very things you scoff at (not wanting to practice, blowing chunks of deer all over the place), are actually commonplace at today's deer camps.

Why American whitetail hunters used to believe the .30-30 was the ideal deer cartridge but now feel undergunned with anything less than a WSM or at least a 6.5 CM, is beyond me. "Because we can" is the only real explanation for the phenomenon I can find.

And then you have another crowd that truly believes their AR platform .223's are plenty of gun at 300 yards. But that's a whole other thread.

Seems we like extremes these days - in our politics and in our deer rifles. Guess it's not popular to compromise and practice moderation anymore.

 

[Gtscotty]

I think the palpable condescension in your posts on this subject tweaked me. It's OK to present and discuss different ideas but you seem bent on deriding folks who don't agree with your perfect deer cartridge concept. If you really think these standard deer cartridges "explode" deer, and that no one can shoot them well, perhaps your experience on the subject is not as complete as you imagine.

 

[Newtosavage]

Again...

Gtscotty, don't get butthurt here.

As I said before, if those stereotypes offend you, you are probably an exception to the rule.

Based on the tone of your posts, I am positive you are exceptional. How's that for condescending?

 

[<*(((><]

Newtosavage, I understand where you are coming from, it seems like "you" are an unethical hunter for using a smaller rifle than what is popular today. If you look at the hunting loads for the 30-06 back in the day (that were used for hunting all of North America's game, including brown bears, you would see a majority of the loads can now be beat with a .308 on energies. It's silly to say that we need more nowadays, when we have had dramatic improvements on bullet & powder technologies, that have squeezed quite a bit more efficiency out of previous cartridges.

Now in saying this I understand that having a caliber that is overkill for game isn't necessarily a bad thing, but to out right call people unethical for hunting with a lesser cartridge, without first hand knowledge of the shooters abilities is ridiculous. A more important question is how good of a shooter are you? And are you willing to pass up a bad shot, or force it? And are you willing to stalk the game to get a better shot? If the shooter is a 2 MOA shooter or less at 300 yards, that will place the bullet into a 6" circle which with the right bullet, will kill a deer ethically a majority of the time with many cartridges.

Back to your question it seems there some good cartridges out there that could meet your needs. If I were you I would take a look at some of these:

Faster velocity, flatter shooting, smaller bullet
.243 Win
.257 Roberts
25-06

Medium-Fast velocity, flatter shooting, medium bullet
6.8 SPC
6.5 Grendel

Fast velocity, flat shooting, medium bullet
7mm-08
6.5 CM
260 Rem
280 Rem

Slower velocity, larger bullet
30-30 Win
.300 AAC/Whisper
7.62x39 with .308 bullets

If you are truly wanting something that's in between those cartridges the one that fits the bill is the 30-30 Win, with new technology and in a bolt action where you have the widest range of bullets would be the ticket for your desires. But if you don't care about sticking with the .308 cal, then the 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 7mm-08, 6.5 CM, 260 Rem, and 280 Rem might be of interest.

I wouldn't look past the 30-30 Win however, most of the information and preconceptions about it's abilities, velocities, flight path, etc. are based off older bullet technology. And with shooting a bolt action with modern bullets and powders its a pretty sweet cartridge.

 

[Newtosavage]

Good post Luke. You hit a lot of nails on the head there IMO.

I would be the last one to look past the venerable 30-30 however, as the first deer I shot with a rifle, was taken with the model 94 Win. I've owned for 30 years now. That rifle has accounted for literally hundreds of wild hogs and dozens of deer in those years. Kills them very dead, and doesn't waste a lot of meat or energy in the process.

I'll be on the lookout for the Remington 788 in 30-30. Never knew it existed before this thread.

Of course, the other rounds you mention are fine compromises too. I think there are a lot of reasons why the .257 Roberts has been so popular with deer hunters for so long, and the 7mm-08 is quickly becoming America's favorite deer cartridge.

If I weren't handloading and could only pick one caliber for all things deer, right now it would be the 7mm-08 in a bolt action. For the parameters I outlined, the 6.8 SPC actually comes the closest, along with the "modern" 30-30 using Hornady's Leverevolution powders and pointed bullets. Both of those could keep the recoil at manageable levels in a sub-7 lb. hunting rifle, and probably not ruin too much meat either.

While the .300 BO is a pretty remarkable little round, it falls short of being a legitimate 300-yard deer round IMO. To get the 7.62x39 out to 300, it would have to be handloaded to max pressures, but there are a few formulas that will do it. When I start handloading for that caliber, I plan to see how a 125-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip shoots on top of 27 grains of Reloder 7, for instance. All the figures say that's a 1000 ft. lb. round at 300 yards.

 

[Olympus]

I'll have to say that the number of guys I see at the public gun ranges makes me cringe. There are countless guys that are shooting big calibers in lightweight synthetic rifles that kick like mules. Pay enough attention and most of them only bring one box of shells and if they get inside the 5" circle, they pack up and leave. They don't pay attention to group sizes and they certainly aren't shooting for fun. But these guys continue to buy 270s, 30-06s, etc because their grandfather or dad always said that's what a deer rifle really is. And a lot of these guys are able to successfully take deer each year.

Can a person get by with doing things this way? Sure, they have been for many years. I think the morale of the story is that a person can move down in caliber a good bit from those calibers and still take as many deer...not to mention gain a rifle that is more enjoyable to shoot during the rest of the year.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm the butt of a lot of wisecracks arounds the deer camp for using a 243. But I let them all roll off my back because I know I have more trigger time behind my 243 than they do their 30-06. It's funny that nobody wants to put money down when I challenge them to a best 3-shot group with my 243. Then the comments change to, "well my 30-06 is a deer rifle and not a target rifle. I can hit the kill zone on any deer." Thing is, my 243 can do both, tight groups and take deer.

My opinion, shoot whatever you like, but be proficient with your gun and don't just knock the cobwebs off before deer season.

 

[Newtosavage]

Olympus, your gun range observations mirror my own, as well as those at countless deer camps over the years.

At least one gun writer agrees as well:

http://gunsmagazine.com/ruger-american-compact/

I found, in particular, the Ruger Compact Rifles chambered in 7mm-08, .223, and .243 were a true pleasure to carry all day, They delivered plenty of payload for anything I needed a rifle to do, and fulfilled another need, namely less recoil. I’ve spent a lot of time shooting heavy recoiling leverguns such as those using heavy .45-70 loads, but as I’ve grown older (and wiser?) recoil has not only become more unpleasant it also can cause physical problems simply because we get more fragile with age.
Our own Dave Anderson has reported of eye problems probably from heavy recoil and the late John Wootters reported the same thing in his later life. I think they are both right on.

You're spot on here as well:

My opinion, shoot whatever you like, but be proficient with your gun and don't just knock the cobwebs off before deer season.

So this is why I raise the question about a true mid-power, 300-yard deer caliber, and why I am surprised there are so few.

 

[Olympus]

I think the 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel would also make great choices for what you're describing, but they are not 30 caliber rounds though.

 

[Gtscotty]

Again...

Gtscotty, don't get butthurt here.

As I said before, if those stereotypes offend you, you are probably an exception to the rule.

Based on the tone of your posts, I am positive you are exceptional. How's that for condescending?

I'm not butt hurt, and certainly not exceptional, just a guy who likes to hunt and shoot, and tries to put the effort and trigger time in to do both decently.

Of the lighter cartridges being discussed here, I've killed deer with the .243, 6.8 spc, and 7.62x39. All worked well, but I would probably give the edge to the .243 and 6.8spc. Given that you like to keep velocities down, I'd agree with other posters who said that the 6.8spc is probably the best modern iteration of your ideal deer cartridge. The load i used sent a 110gr Accubond downrange at 2660 fps out of an 18in barrel, but a lot of folks have great results with the softer 120gr SST at 2400 to 2500 fps. The Hornady manual even advises that you could use a 130 gr interbond at 2300 fps, but you might be restricted to bolt actions with a longer mag length. You could also pretty easily build a 6.8 spc AR that fit your weight requirements as long as you kept an eye on your barrel profile, furniture and optic weight. Check out 68forums for more info.

I've seen the folks at deer camp who can't shoot, I'm not convinced that a lot of those folks would practice more with a lighter recoiling rifle. As far as I'm concerned its largely a mindset problem, if you are aiming to hit "brown" you are going to wound deer with whatever you shoot.

 

[Hookeye]

Deer don't always read the script, and sometimes bullets do things outside of what is expected.

Cut things too fine and it might burn ya.

Having extra oomph is not a bad way of trying for insurance.

IMHO proper gun fit, decent recoil pad, good stock design.......and bench time..........should have most any able bodied person running a .308win.
If unable then the normal expenditures of an "average" hunt will be more taxing than the shooting, unless they drive an ATV to some blind and just sit there.

If so, then make your .308 a heavy barrel

 

[Newtosavage]

Hookeye, I think the 1000 ft. lbs. rule of thumb IS the insurance. As someone else pointed out, deer are cleanly killed with handguns, blackpowder rifles, etc. that don't generate nearly 1000 ft. lbs. at the distances they are shot at, and are just as dead.

Personally, I think 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards is actually more than enough insurance.

 

[Newtosavage]

I would probably give the edge to the .243 and 6.8spc. Given that you like to keep velocities down, I'd agree with other posters who said that the 6.8spc is probably the best modern iteration of your ideal deer cartridge. The load i used sent a 110gr Accubond downrange at 2660 fps out of an 18in barrel, but a lot of folks have great results with the softer 120gr SST at 2400 to 2500 fps. The Hornady manual even advises that you could use a 130 gr interbond at 2300 fps, but you might be restricted to bolt actions with a longer mag length.

I'm definitely intrigued by this and hope to learn more about the round.

I've seen the folks at deer camp who can't shoot, I'm not convinced that a lot of those folks would practice more with a lighter recoiling rifle. As far as I'm concerned its largely a mindset problem, if you are aiming to hit "brown" you are going to wound deer with whatever you shoot.

Agreed.

 

[Hookeye]

I read "deer and hogs"............what is a trophy buck in the OP's area size wise?

Is this the smaller southern stuff, midwest where 200# dressed is no big deal..........or are we after those brutes in Canada?