Son-in-law assaulted

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Yoda

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Last night, my son-in-law told me how he was assaulted a few months ago at a junior high school during a track meet. He was sitting in the bleachers with his two youngest daughters (10 and 3) watching the oldest (12) compete. Some pre-teens and younger teens were running around in the bleachers and almost knocked his 3-year-old over, and he yelled at them to be careful.

A while later, a large man and 12 or more of his friends surrounded my son-in-law as he and the kids were walking away from the bleachers. The big guy said something like, "You think you can disrespect my girls?" My son-in-law started to say something back (he says he wanted to tell the guy that if he didn't want folks yelling at his kids, he should teach them how to behave), but he got "sucker punched" (his term) and ended up on the ground, semi-dazed, and he had trouble getting back up. When he did, he couldn't see his kids (the older daughter had grabbed the baby and ran), the thugs were taunting him, trying to get him to try to fight back, and some teachers were yelling that they were calling the cops.

The thugs dispersed, but the guy who punched my son-in-law was arrested in the parking lot for assault. Of course, all his friends say that their thug-friend was completely innocent and that my son-in-law (who, at the time he was hit, was carrying a camera in one hand and a three-year-old in the other) had been the aggressor.

My son-in-laws eyes were pretty wet as he was telling me all this. He works out every night and, despite having gotten a physical discharge from the air force (broken neck, now fused), he is in excellent physical shape. If it were one-on-one, he says that he would have fought back, but when surrounded by a crowd of animals and you don't know what happened to your kids, and you can hardly get back up, he says it's different. He said it's mostly degrading. He also says that the guys who surrounded him live in a different world. We relate to each other in a civil manner. They are not civilized. They are animals. I agree.

Court date is set for next month. My son-in-law is already pissed because he will also have to make another court date next month, when the people who broke into his house and stole everything they could find are sentenced. For the leader, this is his 17th conviction. They took the family computer, which had all the photos on it, then erased the hard drive and tried to pawn it. There went a whole marriage full of memories.

My son-in-law also now lives in fear that this thug and his thug friends will look him up and take revenge... but who has a justified claim on revenge?

He's now in the process of applying for his concealed carry permit, but as you all know, he's behind the power curve. He's also very, very bitter that his self-image and his life have been so messed up, simply because one father and all his fellow gang members would rather punch a guy than discipline his own kids.

I've advised him that, before he gets his permit, he needs to do more than read the CCW package. He needs a thorough foundation in justifiable use of force. He also needs to understand that he cannot use the CCW to take out his frustrations, during any future altercation, for what's just happened to him. In fact, he will have an even greater obligation to just walk away, if he can (yes, I know Florida law now allows you to "stand your ground," but escaping from a situation, if you can, is almost always better than having to engage in social work). In this case, it didn't look like he could have walked away. Since this happened on school property, a CCW would have done him no good.

- - - Yoda
 
the wolf culls one from the herd. the other wolves gather whilst the herd moves to 'safety'.
a generation ( or more so, 2 ) ago the good people would gather to help rather than shirk their civic, indeed--moral responsibility to help.
i wish the best for your family. you have a good grasp of the responsibilities of carrying. i hope he listens well to you.
 
I know some may strongly disagree, but I think this is one type of situation where open carry can be decidedly beneficial.

It's obviously not a option in Florida or school zones currently, but how is a thug like the one in your son-in-law's account going to react to an armed victim? I believe that that kind of casual violence just doesn't happen when the instigators are confronted with a reminder that they could be biting off more than they want to chew. It's a perfect demonstration of Heinlein's statement: "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
 
Sorry to hear of this event. A couple of questions:

1) Was the guy who punched your SIL a student or a community member?

2) Did the school have any LEOs hired to provide security?

Doc2005
 
I'm going to get flamed for saying this. I'm going to get told how tactically unsound my answer is. And I'm going get told how legally speaking I'd be the aggressor if I did this.

OK, I got it I understand all that, but sometimes you just don't have any other choice.

I'd of hit the guy square in the chops as soon as he opened his mouth.

1 of you 12 of them ? You're going down anyway you might as well take one of them with you.
 
He said it's mostly degrading.
Click to expand...

This is probably a more realistic and longer-lasting worry than whether there will be any revenge.

Just my $.02, but I think helping him realize there's no shame in being a victim and that he remains a hero to his kids will help a bit.

The reality to me is that he stood his ground, against over-whelming odds, to allow his kids to escape: that's true bravery, regardless of who ended up being punched.

What was he to do? Faced by an angry group with a mob-mentality is not a situation any of us would want to be in.
 
Flame suit on, but I'm with Treo on this one.

12 on 1, Ambushed at a placeof their choosing, with little ones? I'm instantly on the offensive. Clear the kill zone early and attack. Keep walking, say "Move" once, and if their still there when you get in reach start breaking bones. Don't mess around with hitting someone in the mouth; hurt them. The sooner the leader is on the ground and bleading, the better chance you have of breaking the Mob menatlity.

I'm sorry that this happened to your SIL, and interestingly enough it's the second story I've read in two days where a man was attacked by a mob in front of witnesses and noone intervined. What happened to community where people watch their neighbors get attacked and do nothing but call for help? How about stopping the attack?

You seem to be giving your SIL good advice on the CCW, just include a talk about situational awareness so he doesn't get surounded by 12 aggressors again.
 
I think it is a crying shame when people see stuff like this going on and only calling the police instead of helping the one in distress, how many people were around there? More than 12 I would imagine.

And in the Redneck Riveria no less!
 
Of course, all his friends say that their thug-friend was completely innocent and that my son-in-law (who, at the time he was hit, was carrying a camera in one hand and a three-year-old in the other) had been the aggressor.
Click to expand...
If they in fact testify thusly, or swear such to the investigating LEO(s), and the perpetrator is convicted, can these accomplices be charged as accessories and/or with false testimony (perjury)?

Poper
 
Time for your son-in-law to take some martial arts lesson. It's not to fight but to build his self-confidence and give him the ability to protect his family. If he learns to fight because of those classes, so much the better.
 
I think 12 on one constitutes a mob assault/deadly force. Had it not been a school zone, he would have been perfectly within his rights to plug the leader once he was hit and on the ground. Completely undesirable, but in this case the guy was EXTREMELY lucky the mob didn't press their attack.
 
1) Was the guy who punched your SIL a student or a community member?

2) Did the school have any LEOs hired to provide security?

Doc2005

The assailant and his friends all seemd to be parents of other kids participating in the track meet, or friends of those parent, or fellow gang members hanging around with nothing better to do. I suspect there were cops on site, because they responded pretty fast and the track meet involved a school that apparently has a reputation for gang activity. I'd suspect a lot of folks just assume that when gang members grow up, they leave the gangs, but that's not always the case. It's getting to be a generational thing.
 
I didn't just say hit 'im to be an internet [bleep]. In a situation like that you know the guy's gonna swing, by striking first you take the iniative away from him. You throw a variable he wasn't ready for into the mix. Please understand I'm not suggesting that you stand your ground and go down fighting. after you hit the guy you grab the kinds & run like [bleep].
 
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Regarding th suggests to "hit first and take one out." I appreciate the thoughts, and there was a time when I would have given similar advice, and there was even one time when that's exactly what I did...

...but guy, in the real world, the objective is not to prove your machisno. Pre-emptively punching one would only ensure that the others beat the crap out of you. Besides, my son-in-law's first, second, and third priorities were to protect the kids. Throwing the first punch wouldn't have done anything along those lines.

If I were to do an after-action report on this, I'd say his mistake was stopping and turning around to talk as the guys were walking up to him. Yes, it would have felt "cowardly," but just "keep walking" while some thugs are trying to catch up to you might have helped. It might have also gotten him to his car, and a weapon.

But even IF he had a gun, or was open carrying, we don't know how many of the thugs in that mob were also carrying.

If all he did was allow himself to get pounded into the ground while his kids got away, even if that wasn't his intent, then he did as well as can be expected, I think. In some situations, once you're in them, there are no elegant ways to extract yourself.

- - - Yoda
 
Yoda said:
He's now in the process of applying for his concealed carry permit, but as you all know, he's behind the power curve. He's also very, very bitter that his self-image and his life have been so messed up, simply because one father and all his fellow gang members would rather punch a guy than discipline his own kids.
Click to expand...

Whoa...

EDIT - His "life" hasn't been messed up. He lost nothing but face. He needs to turn this into a win and he can do that by changing his perspective. See the point about arch enemy. Change perspective by focusing on what he lost... What did he lose? Can anyone on this board tell me? MOney? Posessions? Love? Honor? So if you lose nothing, how can you be a loser?

I want to quote something here:

"Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies..."

Can you do that? Can he? no...

End Edit

Tell him to go see a therapist... Or, he can talk it out with you, provided that you know how to handle this. Same type of thing happened to me once. Honestly, it isn't a big deal. It is traumatic, but having a gun (I doubt it would be legal where he was) isn't a magic talisman that is going to bring his manhood back. Also, he needs to talk to his kid. Has your son in law been in any fights? Has he ever lost one? A sucker punch is more analogous to rape than anything, because the attacker just took away his masculinity, his ability to "impact" his immediate environment through force.

In any event, he needs to talk it out / shake it off and explain to his kids the nature of conflict while also rationalizing the nature of conflict himself.

For instance, in this conflict, he feels (I am sure of it) that he "lost". He understands that he got "cheated" and feels "foolish" and "unmacho". What he needs to realize is that the other guy won nothing. He is about to pay for punching a man in the face with years of his life. His wife will leave him, his kids will be ashamed, his friends (they won't say this to you BUT) most of them will think he was an idiot....

So, the conflict shouldn't have been handeled any other way. Let's say that the man that threw the punch was your Son in laws MORTAL / ARCH ENEMY. Then your son in law got him sent to jail and is walking away clean as a whistle with no guilt or guilt feelings, because he didn't make the other guy throw the punch. Good strategy right? *** is the difference now? You can't focus on what you have lost, but what you have left.

Talk to him about it. Assure him that this wasn't a fight and according to the nature of conflict, he didn't lose anything but face, which sucks, but isn't bad. He didn't lose his honor, he kept it. He didn't lose his life, he kept it. While he is focusing on himself, he needs to be focusing on his kids, who reacted INCREDIBLY and suffered a shock at least as big as he did.

Animals get put in cages where they belong...

Seriously though, PM me on this, we will talk about it. A similar incident happened to me, I felt all stove up, but honestly it happend fine. If he had a gun he would have popped the guy? Why? The idiot didn't have the brains to mount a good attack even. He obviously doesn't understand you fight to win.
 
I hope he takes your prudent advice on CCW.

This doesn't help the instant case but as a culture we better find a way to "de thug" this society and fast. More prisons ain't cuttin' it! Shooting each other is no remedy either.
We've got way too many folks on the outside lookin' in. When that changes so will the "us and them".
We've spent years alienating, excluding and ostrasizing many from a real shot at the "good life" based on race, color, socioeconomics and even education.
The results are groups formed based on commonality, outside the system. We call 'em gangs. I doubt any of us think of a newborn as a baby thug.
If we do, perhaps we have other issues.

For better or worse, society reaps what it sews!

CRITGIT
 
Have your son look into Krav Maga. Real world responses to actual threats. He did as well as he could. Except for the lack of situational awareness. Once he scolded the out of control kids he should have been at a higher level of awareness.

As for his self esteem. He can go two ways. This can be a motivator to learn new and helpful skills. Or he can use this as an excuse to hide. Tell him to man up. He hasn't quit going to his kids track meets right?
 
Hi Yoda.Welcome to THR.I remember you and your very fine posts from PDO.
A nightmare situation your son -in -law found himself in at that school meet.Anyone of us could find ourselves in a similar situation and wonder how to re-act.It's certainly a mob he was confronted with that night.
I agree with CrawdaddyJim's ,as per usual ,fine advice:

As for his self esteem. He can go two ways. This can be a motivator to learn new and helpful skills. Or he can use this as an excuse to hide. Tell him to man up. He hasn't quit going to his kids track meets right?
Click to expand...

In regards to your sig line ,Packing.Org flamed out on July 26,2007 without a word or whimper.Mark Solomon ,off to law school, simply pulled the plug with no warning to anyone ,and he and PDO faded to black.
 
If this had happened to me, I'd wish to be blessed with the objectivity to put myself outside the situation looking in, like a 3rd party observer...for instance, one of the teachers. What would you have seen?

First, a father faithfully fulfilling his role as protector. He is trying to establish a safe zone around his kids. Second, a man trying to get his family to the car and then go home. Third, family surrounded by animals, father assaulted and on the ground, kids running but safe. Fourth, bad guy arrested. Fifth, all of the family gets to go home together. What could the SIL have done better? Probably nothing.

Nasty situation but to in my opinion it had the best outcome possible. Dad had to take one for the team but the team won.

Now change the outcome...Dad on the ground, dazed, kids trying to run. Dad pulls concealed weapon and tries to drop bad guy. Dad misses the guy or wounds him or shoots somebody else. Thugs draw and return fire (because you KNOW at least one was carrying). You (the teacher) are leaving the parking lot with a friend when suddenly the friend takes a stray to the head. Dad was on the ground stationary when this started so Dad is probably dead.

The kids are traumatized for life...they didn't see Dad get sucker punched, they saw Dad murdered. Your friend is still dead. The police might be able to sort out who shot who and after a year or two somebody might get sentenced to prison, then that somebody will probably be back on the street in 10.

It's one thing to stand back and say "...pop the leader and the rest will run..." and quite another to realize that Dad isn't the Caped Avenger, he's a man trying to protect his family.

Tell Dad that he did good, and thank that angel who had his back.
 
Thanks for posting this story. There's a lesson in there somewhere - but I'm not sure what it is without further reflection and discussion.

Nasty situation but to in my opinion it had the best outcome possible. Dad had to take one for the team but the team won.
Click to expand...

I agree.

His 10-year-old did exactly the right thing. Thank God the SIL was not injured more seriously than he was. Hooray for the arrest of the perp!

I'm not sure better situational awareness would have helped much. People are moving around in the stadium coming and going to the snack bar, their cars, etc. Even with your head on a swivel, you would not have known this guy was coming for you until he was on you. And you wouldn't know he was going to sucker punch you until you were actually seeing stars.

Treo:
I understand your idea, but it did not sound to me from the OP that there was any opportunity to initiate a "preemptive strike".

BG says, "You think you can disrespect my girls?" - and then immediately lays on a sucker punch. I can't imagine the SIL - with a camera in one hand and baby in the other - knocking the guy out somewhere between "You think..." and "...my girls?"

How was he supposed to determine the guy's intent and take decisive action (that may have got him killed IMO) in that brief, confusing moment?

Also...CCW is of course a good idea for eveyone (even though it was likely illegal in this particular situation). But as Restorer points out, considering that it ended with one punch - a gun in the SIL's hand could have made this incident worse. Of course, if the attack had continued - a gun could have prevented an even worse outcome.

I guess it's true...you gotta know when to hold 'em - and know when to fold 'em.
 
In my previous post I didn't mean to imply that ANY use of a gun in this scenario would have been unwise. As you say, Rainbowbob, "you gotta know when to hold 'em - and know when to fold 'em."

Assuming that I was armed and able to make a good decision in spite of being hurt, I would cross the "...hold 'em..." threshold at the point where the kids were jeopardized. You can mess with me (up to a point) but you don't mess with my kids. I'm willing to die to protect them, but to paraphrase George Patton, I'd rather make somebody else die to protect them.
 
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