Son-in-law assaulted

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In this day and time, I'm very selective about who I "yell at" for any reason, especially in public with thugs in the area.

I guess having been beaten to within an inch of my life by a gang of thugs has altered both my attitude and my situational awareness.

I doubt very seriously it will go down the same way again.
 
And then again...I think about it a little more and recall that just last week, a man in this town was sucker-punched and died almost instantly. Last year a man was permantly brain-damaged by a single punch.

So drawing a gun BEFORE the punch may be the only thing that saves your life. But when DO you draw the gun (that would be illegal in a school stadium) to defend against a puch you don't see coming? And what IF the assailant draws and fires his gun as a response because you did NOT shoot first? And what if there is a mob lined up against you?
 
I'm very selective about who I "yell at" for any reason...

Good policy - but sometimes it seems almost unavoidable.

I was at the park a few months ago and a large bully was terrorizing his own kids (at least I think they were his). First he was pushing a three-year-old in a swing by slamming his hands against him so hard he let out a grunt each time - and the kid was screaming in fear (and pain?).

Everybody else was looking the other way and I felt I HAD to do something. I had my hand on my cell phone just when the presumptive mother came up and stopped it.

Then this goon comes over to where my grandson is playing, and when his 8-year-old gets on the suspension bridge - the goon jumps on it as hard as he can (he is probably 6'2"/250lbs) and sends this little one flying into the air and crashing down on the metal bars. The kid looks at me plaintively, and now I GOTTA say something.

"This equipment is for kids only!"

Nothin'.

"This equipment is for the kids - you're too big!"

Nothin' - not even a look in my direction.

Finally he gets down and goes back to join his wife and other kid.

I just grabbed my grandson and vacated the park - and God help that mother and those kids.

But sometimes...even though it is probably not the smartest or safest thing to do...you can't just stand there and say and do nothing.
 
Hiya...


Thank you for posting this. I think it is an important documentation of the experiences faced.


I only have one "rebuttal"-- and that sounds like the wrong word here. Perhaps observation of a different perspective is a better term.


He also says that the guys who surrounded him live in a different world. We relate to each other in a civil manner. They are not civilized. They are animals. I agree.


I disagree with the notion that they live in a "different world."

The world is what it is. And we all share it. Some see civility as the "normal" state of man while others see savagery as the "normal" state of man.

Indeed, this was a prevailing question among philosophers and artists throughout the Elizabethian and Victorian eras. In these periods, the notion of the "Savage Garden" was born. Shakespeare's Othello utilized it as a theme.

Why is this an important question?

Well, the question was whether the nature of man was savagery and civillization was an artificial construct imposed on our nature. Or was civillization the nature progression of our instincts and savagery a sometimes necessary fuction of man when extrordinary situations required it.

I don't know that this question was ever conclusively answered, but somewhere down the line, we just stopped asking the question.

So why am I even mentioning this?

Well, as I see it, savagery IS part of mankind's nature. So is society. But not society on large scale. As anthropologists have observed in primates and paleotologists have discovered about early man, our societies function more fluidly in smaller groups. In Cro-Magon society, rarely did a "tribe" exceed 30 members in a single living arrangement.

As our societies have gotten larger, we see more and more "fringe" or disaffected elements. We see more who seek to assert some power over thier environment in a society where they may perhaps feel little "control." This is when societal elements collide.

Really, society on scale is a novel concept in our world today. Civility is often disingenuous and used as a tool of personal gain. Civilization-- in the form of government-- in our world is more often in the form of a tyranny than it is a democracy or republic. By this, we can see MANY current examples of where the entire notion of society is a fuction of one person or a small group of persons gaining a disproportionate level of control over others and the wealth and freedom that goes along with it.


We, in the USA-- and in other "civilized" nations-- are largely unaware of the nature of the majority of the world unless we make an attempt to make ourselves aware. Really, countries like the US become pinnacles of movements towards Order and civility. They are "bubbles" in a stream. Even so, those "bubbles" are not without thier grease spots.

Even more ordered societies are really only ideals to live up to that are experiencing at the moment a certain degree of success. And success is a fragile thing when the tendancy towards chaos always pulls against it.



My point to all of this?

Those people do not live in another world. They live in our world. Globally speaking -- and sometimes locally-- we live in The Savage Garden. But even the Savage Garden has its flowers as well as its briars.



-- John
 
It's interesting to me that several posts in this thread seem to have made excuses for the attackers or engaged in tangential, moral-equivalence musings in their behalf. I used to think that doing this was just being non-judgmental and broad-minded. Now I think that making excuses for unprovoked, violent behavior is part of the problem. I honestly believe that this kind of "tolerance" makes everyone's life less safe.
 
i run the risk of over-simplification, but my idea is to just carry a shillelagh and be done with it. some one hits you with their fist, you crack them with the shillelagh!
 
In Cro-Magon society, rarely did a "tribe" exceed 30 members in a single living arrangement.

An interesting perspective, John. I suspect that in the cro-magnin era, as with other tribal cultures such as the American Indian, small tribes had a cohesive, peaceful existance within the tribe - but were often at war - sometimes perpetually at war - with the "others" outside the tribe.

A larger, more diverse civilization requires a more formal government structure to maintain order. Within that order, however, we seem to naturally divide into tribes of "us" and "others" with whom we are at odds - if not at war.

I don't believe human nature has changed - or will change. Unfortunately, that means we will always have a need to protect ourselves and our "tribe" against the "others" that would do us harm.
 
Should have said this in previous post: In suggesting that the guy would be legally in the clear to draw and fire, this was assuming that the mob continued to close in after the first strike.

In no way do I think it would be better to have multiple people in the morgue over this incident. The point I was trying to make is that these types of situations often DO NOT END with the first strike, nor do they always end with the adult being the last person attacked. At that point you have better options than curling up and being beaten to death in front of your kids, and having same done to them.
 
guessing. not everyone carries. and im sure the thugs aren't stupid enough to commit MURDER in front of half the school. assault, maybe. but few people have the cajones (or are stupid enough) to kill someone in front of full bleachers.
 
I long to live in a society where such ilk as you have described are dealt with in a manner appropirate to their deeds.

How ironic that people call this environment in which we live "civilized society".

I listened to an R.C. Sproul sermon a week ago and he assertively made the case American "culture" has made the transition into a barbaric society. I say he hit the nail on the head with that one.
 
rainbowbob,

You hit very accurately on other aspects of that condition as I see it.

And I agree with you. Human Nature will not change.


-- John
 
SSN Vet wrote:

I listened to an R.C. Sproul sermon a week ago and he assertively made the case American "culture" has made the transition into a barbaric society. I say he hit the nail on the head with that one.


I do not think he is wrong, either.


Coupling with what I said, this transition to barbarity is part of the natural progression of society.

History has numerous examples of civilizations reaching a zenith only to descend the other side through both internal and external forces.

I've always seen in society an attempt to reach an equalibrium between order and chaos-- and equalibrium that can never be achieved.

As soon as either the condition of order or chaos reaches an extreme, societal forces strive to pull back towards the center-- and will always overshoot towards the other extreme.

Many enlightened societies in our history are examples of rise and fall. As reluctant as I am to voice this, it seems that the decline begins as soon as it no longer feels real threat from outside its boundries.

I can't remember where I read it, but someone wrote that the worst enemy to a society is peace. Mankind needs something to stand against. If a society does not have it outside its sphere, it will start to turn on itself.


I see that happening today.


-- John




EDIT:

I realize that my "contribution" to this thread in any of my posts is questionable on the surface. Its smacks a bit more on the academic and philosophical level. However, it is my belief that perhaps the MOST effective "Strategy and Tactic" we can form is within our own minds. I see having too much faith and comfort in our otherwise civil societal arrangement is a critical mistake. Believing that our society is too "civil" instills a false sense of security and a false comfort that can overide our survival instincts.

No, I am not saying that the SIL in this thread did that. I am simply stating that mind-set and world-view DO have a part in formulating our approach to society and its lesser elements. Often we see classes "teach" people how to not look like a "victim." This essentially reinforces and exemplifies what I am trying to impart. When you strip away the notion that our society is as "civil" as you would like to believe, you subconsciously change both the way you see the world, and the way the world see you.
 
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He also says that the guys who surrounded him live in a different world. We relate to each other in a civil manner. They are not civilized. They are animals. I agree.

I disagree with the notion that they live in a "different world."

I admire philosophy and academic rigor. However, I think the disagreement expressed in this quote draws people away from an important point: they really are not civilized. By "they" I mean anyone who behaves the way the thugs described in the original post did. Regardless of race, creed, or national origin. Yes, literally we live in the same world. No, they are not civilized.

Getting into a broad, unspecific, and morally relative discussion cushions the outrage that needs to be felt and expressed when something takes place as described in the original post. That outrage is -- morally, socially, politically, and tactically -- a good thing. Philosophy has good uses, but diluting and appearing to explain away beneficial outrage is not one of them.
 
Boomer,

Read the multitude of my posts here. I cushion nothing.

My assessement on the nature of mankind is not excusing those persons. If anything, I am saying that we must realize that those persons are more common in polite societies than many would like to believe.

If you saw ANYTHING excusing them, you misread me.



Really, what is there to say here? Schools are "Gun-Free Zones." Many, like the one I teach at apply that to other weapons as well.

Martial arts? Well, if you don't have proficiency with hand-to-hand fighting already, it will be quite a while before you can use it without getting yourself killed.

Already proficient? Well, it ain't the movies... 12 to 1 will get you killed. I used to kickbox competatively and I taught martial arts classes as well as self-defense seminars. I can tell you that hand-to-hand or even using environmental weapons against 12 people is a lot like nailing jello to a wall. There ARE ways to keep multiple opponents away from you if you have to fight them. But we are talking about a couple people. Not 12.


I see this thread as a REMINDER about threats that exist in various environments. But looking at a real tactic to deal with it? There really isn't one that involves actual contact.

The better thing that could have been done is maneuver yourself constantly out of arms' reach of anyone who is confronting you. I learned a long time ago to ALWAYS expect the sucker punch. Guess how I learned that lesson? Yep. While getting sucker punched by a guy as I was shaking his hand.

A better strategy would be to remove yourself from the situation as soon as you see it developing.

As for tactics, I think that is all I can add.


-- John
 
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My father taught me something. Or he tried. Life beat it into me.

YOU CANNOT REASON WITH A BULLY. Every time I have ever tried to ,I have been beaten.

The corollary to the above. BULLIES ONLY RESPECT FORCE.

To confront a bully, it is necessary to have overwhelming dominance of force.
 
I surprised that no one has commented on this, but we have 2 threads running neck & neck in which a father was beaten trying to protect his kid.

What is the common denomanator ?

Both occured in " gun free zones"

I think that speakes volumes.
 
Boomer,

Read the multitude of my posts here. I cushion nothing.

My assessement on the nature of mankind is not excusing those persons. If anything, I am saying that we must realize that those persons are more common in polite societies than many would like to believe.

If you saw ANYTHING excusing them, you misread me.

John, I did misread you. Please accept my apology.
 
Boomer wrote:

John, I did misread you. Please accept my apology.

Boomer, my friend, you have nothing to appologize for. I should applogize that I didn't do a good job of getting out my thoughts.

-- John
 
SSN Vet said:
I long to live in a society where such ilk as you have described are dealt with in a manner appropirate to their deeds.

He got arrested and is most likely going to go to jail. Honestly, I think he got what he deserved. What did you have in mind???

SSN Vet said:
How ironic that people call this environment in which we live "civilized society".

I listened to an R.C. Sproul sermon a week ago and he assertively made the case American "culture" has made the transition into a barbaric society. I say he hit the nail on the head with that one.

I am a huge fan of Dr. Sproul... http://www.ligonier.org/ You can listen to his stuff online. You rightly can't call them sermons... But seriously amazing.

I think Dr. Sprould would have some advice on this... Namely, the law did it's job. Notch one for the system. Even if the idiot gets away with it, he carries in him his own torture chamber.

The perp in this equation has been dealt with. No the Son in Law needs to get over the issue at hand, which was he was physically assualted in a set up (you can tell by the number of "friends" at the time that is was a set up). No one can win those and anything he had done after the punch would have been revenge, fool hardy, both or gotten him in needless hot water.

I say he did perfect. He lost nothing. The other idiot has possibly lost his freedom.
 
If the children of people you don't know are engaging in horseplay etc., advise them in a calm, friendly manner to be careful. Don't act nasty and yell angrily at them.

If you do it in a friendly way, you probably won't get more than a dirty look from their parents. If you act nasty, you'll probably get punched out like the OP's SIL, or perhaps even beaten worse.

Maturity and situational awareness are key.
 
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