(Sorry, but another one on ...) Cz v. the Clones

[yhtomit]

Hi!

Inspired by another recent thread on the relationship among the various Cz clones out there (Tanfoglio, Armalite, the Turkish one I can't remember how to spell which actually *makes* the Armalite, Jericho, etc), I have a question I hope some of you can help answer, which is, which clone is (or which clones are) the "cloniest"?

That is, are there any of the so-called clones which can, say, take Cz mags? Other parts? If not, I daresay these are actually only *cousins* rather than clones, but I won't quibble over the word so much if I at least know the answer to this question

Thanks!

timothy

 

[briansp82593]

i want to say the baby eagle takes cz mags, they are very robust pistols, i would have bought one, but alas, no rail, not common parts sights etc.

 

[FEG]

There is a wealth of information on this at the CZ Forum.

http://czechpistols82792.yuku.com/forums/27/t/CZ-CLONE-CLUB.html

Sorry, but I refuse to cut and paste myself more than ten times during any given 24 hour period.

In all seriousness, there are a LOT of posts here and on TFL that would be answered by less than one minute of browsing on our site. You can kid yourself that other sites are more "objective," but check who actually answers, no matter where you may be. Trust me, there aren't that many people signing up for the username "FEG," just for example.

This site is very valuable, and obviously, I enjoy me time here. However, I really don't get why people seem to ignore resources like CZF and the S&W Forum, just for example.

 

[Dobe]

Many of the "clones" are not actually clones. A true clone will accept the majority of parts of the parent. Think of the 1911 and the AR-15 clones. This is not true of such handguns as the Armalite AR-24, which is more of a versioned copy than a clone. By the way, the AR-24 is a wonderful handgun. It will accept the Witness magazines also.

 

[FEG]

Short Answers:

1. None of the so-called clones are direct 1-for-1 copies of a CZ 75 series pistol. Pre- Series 88 Tanfolgios were relatively close to 1979-1985 production CZs. Their magazines will usually interchange, for example. The Series 88 Tanfoglios and Type B (1994 - present) CZs are now quite different.

2. Unless you are discussing the Tanfoglio family (Witness, Baby Eagle, AR-24, etc.), almost none of the clones interchange parts. Sphinx and ITM models probably share parts, as Sphinx bought ITM's tooling.

3. There is a nine page sticky thread at CZF outlining which magazines can be used with which models. If this is idle curiosity, I recommend satisfying it there. If you have a specific question, please ask.

4. Some of the Sphinx models are probably the closest thing to a "real" CZ these days, at least internally. Externally, they don't look much like CZs.

 

[gopguy]

Heck some times things built for the CZ wont work in another CZ depending on vintage. If you get the new magazines and try to stick it in a pre b, you may get it in there, but you will have a devil of a time getting it out... I advise you read the sticky at CZ forums too.

 

[wally]

For 9mm or .40S&W just get the real deal CZ. But if you want a .45ACP, get the Witness Elite Match -- its what the CZ97 should have been. CZ97 and Witness .45 take the same 10 round mags.

--wally.

 

[1 old 0311]

Can you name ANY knockoff that was as good as the original?

 

[ceadermtnboy]

Sure the USFA single action army is considered by many to be better than the Colt.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Can you name ANY knockoff that was as good as the original?

The H&K G3 is better than the CETME.

Valmets and Galils are better than Russian Kalashnikovs.

Certain companies' 1911s are better than a Colt.

 

[yhtomit]

"This site is very valuable, and obviously, I enjoy me time here. However, I really don't get why people seem to ignore resources like CZF and the S&W Forum, just for example."

FEG:

I appreciate your reply; let me give a serious response (which might not satisfy you):

1) Not trying to ignore obvious resources; there are a lot of Cz-related posts here at THR, and I have scanned them, and done some searches, over the course of the last couple of years. if I had seen one or ones which had answered my question, I'd have been happy not to ask. Here, it's a bit like visiting a large city -- seeking advice from friendly natives who have a clue beats wandering for too long, even if I *know* the answer's somewhere in the guidebook.

2) You mention CZF and the S&W Forum; I know there are a lot of specialized forums out there, including more than one for practically any gun manufacturer large enough to be known to the ATF. Are those forums you mention subforums of THR, or do you mean wholly separate sites? If they are subforums, please forgive my ignorance: I don't see any mention of how to reach subforums in the FAQ, or by searching for "CZ Forum" and I've assumed (when hearing various forums talked about, including the "Cz Forum," here on THR) that those comments referred to other sites entirely. If they're *not* subforums, perhaps this explains (at least for me) why not everyone reads them, which is that every online forum in the world requires a bit of time investment which limits the ability to delve into more than a fairly small number of them. I have already a larger tangle of [login-password-history] combinations than I would strictly prefer, and of the other gun-related forums I've looked at, none have come close to THR in my opinion, so I have not spent as much time reading them, the usual cycle of enforcement.

Thanks for the link to the CZ Clone Club, too -- interesting.

timothy

 

[yhtomit]

Many of the "clones" are not actually clones. A true clone will accept the majority of parts of the parent. Think of the 1911 and the AR-15 clones. This is not true of such handguns as the Armalite AR-24, which is more of a versioned copy than a clone. By the way, the AR-24 is a wonderful handgun. It will accept the Witness magazines also.

Dobe:

Thanks for that information! I wonder if the opposite is also true, but good to know in either case. The reviews I've read of the AR-24 spoke highly of it, and if I hadn't first found a Cz-75 at an excellent price, I might well have bought one to be happy about

For 9mm or .40S&W just get the real deal CZ. But if you want a .45ACP, get the Witness Elite Match -- its what the CZ97 should have been. CZ97 and Witness .45 take the same 10 round mags.

wally -- Heh, that's I did, actually, picked it up last week (a .45 Witness Elite Match), and in about 2 weeks I hope to actually have the chance to fire it (Travel-sans-guns intervenes, so I shall attempt not to tangle with ninjas, polar bears, aliens, or ruffians.) The Cz-97 mags work, eh? That'll be convenient if I find different prices / different bins at a gun show for each of those -- thanks.

timothy

 

[Wolfman_556]

The only CZ-ish "clone" I've ever handled was a coworker's Baby Eagle 9mm.

It was certainly accurate and felt very solid, but I still prefer the 75B because the ergonomics are much better IMO.

The B.E.'s ergonomics felt to me like a halfway point between a Hi-Power and a Glock. This isn't necessarily a good or bad thing; it just depends on your preference.

 

[loop]

I doubt you'll be disappointed in your Tanfoglio Elite Match. I have one in .45 ACP and it has continued a long string of IDPA wins that began with an EAA Witness steel model in .45.

I have made quite a few mods to the gun. If you are concerned about aftermarket parts check out: http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/

Henning Walgren is one of the top USPSA shooters in the world and stocks and sells many fine aftermarket parts for the Tanfoglio line. He's a little, thin on .45 because USPSA leans toward minimalist specs to make power floor, but he has access to a lot of nice parts and is very easy to talk to.

I've changed over to his aluminum mag basepads, grips, changed sights, grips, springs, firing pin, et al., and been nothing less than a happy camper.

I consider my Elite Match to be one of the finest handguns I've ever owned. Aside from being a competition gun that shoots one hole on paper out to 25 yards, it is 100 percent reliable. In the first 500 rounds I had six glitches. Three of them were due to trying to shoot 200-gr. SW that won't function out of any of my guns. Two were failures to return to battery (fixed with a Lee factory crimp die). One, well, I'm not sure. It was during the first match I shot it in and I cleared it so quickly I still had the best score on the COF.

It is now my "go to" gun when I want reliability or accuracy out of a .45 ACP.

Best of luck.

My only advice is to use a recoil spring that suits what you are shooting. My loads are a bit light so I use a 12-pound spring. Wolff makes a nice selection so you are not limited in that area.

 

[Dobe]

Thanks for that information! I wonder if the opposite is also true, but good to know in either case. The reviews I've read of the AR-24 spoke highly of it, and if I hadn't first found a Cz-75 at an excellent price, I might well have bought one to be happy about

If you are in the market for another CZ type. Try the AR-24. It is like an upscale CZ. It's a really nice handgun.

 

[Big Gay Al]

The H&K G3 is better than the CETME.

Um, isn't the CETME a copy of the G3??

 

[AndyC]

Nope - the Spanish developed the rifle at CETME ( Centro de Estudios Tecnicos de Materiales Especiales) and later licensed the design to Germany, who adopted it as the G3 (around 1959 or so).

 

[JHansenAK47]

The B.E.'s ergonomics felt to me like a halfway point between a Hi-Power and a Glock. This isn't necessarily a good or bad thing; it just depends on your preference.

I personally think of them as handling more akin to a Beretta with that slide mounted safety.

Nope - the Spanish developed the rifle at CETME ( Centro de Estudios Tecnicos de Materiales Especiales) and later licensed the design to Germany, who adopted it as the G3 (around 1959 or so).

Weren't a lot of their engineers from Germany using design ideas based on previous German rifles.(Stg 45 and Stg 44)

 

[FEG]

You mention CZF and the S&W Forum; I know there are a lot of specialized forums out there, including more than one for practically any gun manufacturer large enough to be known to the ATF. Are those forums you mention subforums of THR, or do you mean wholly separate sites? If they are subforums, please forgive my ignorance: I don't see any mention of how to reach subforums in the FAQ, or by searching for "CZ Forum" and I've assumed (when hearing various forums talked about, including the "Cz Forum," here on THR) that those comments referred to other sites entirely. If they're *not* subforums, perhaps this explains (at least for me) why not everyone reads them, which is that every online forum in the world requires a bit of time investment which limits the ability to delve into more than a fairly small number of them. I have already a larger tangle of [login-password-history] combinations than I would strictly prefer, and of the other gun-related forums I've looked at, none have come close to THR in my opinion, so I have not spent as much time reading them, the usual cycle of enforcement.

The CZ Forum is a separate website. I believe it has been around for a few years longer than THR.

http://czechpistols82792.yuku.com/

Well over 80% of the people who respond to the CZ questions here post at CZF. It could be even more, as I am only counting people who use the same username here and at CZF, such as armoredman, Stephen A. Camp, CZF, eerw, burningsquirrels, mbott, and a lot of other people I don't recall at this moment. My point is that you aren't getting a "different take" here, you're getting less of the same, from the same people.

Most of the questions asked about CZs here at THR have been covered in great depth at CZF. Usually, we even have FAQs on the subject with pictures, etc.

My intention is to point out that these resources (manufacturer specific forums) are usually the best sources for hard information like production dates, serial # ranges, parts compatability, etc. The best analogy I can think of is that a Pittsburgh Pirates fan is probably better off looking for info on the Bucs in a Pittsburgh newspaper, not U.S.A. Today. If other people don't agree, more power to them.

 

[Wolfman_556]

I personally think of them as handling more akin to a Beretta with that slide mounted safety.

I'm talking about how they "point" (ergonomics), not their controls. I've come to prefer the frame mounted safety/decocker of my CZ but my Beretta92FS and Ruger P97DC both have them mounted on the slide and it's not that big a deal.

 

[Dobe]

Can you name ANY knockoff that was as good as the original?

The AR-24 is as good or better than the CZ 75 B.

Kimber at one time (Pre Series II) produced an equal to or better 1911 than Colt. Colt did go through a rather quality slump. I realize they are back, and I would prefer the Colt at this time as their quality seems to have returned.

There are a number of AR-15 types which equal Colt at this time. I say this with complete appreciation for Colt's quality, but there are still others of equal quality.

The Ruger LCP is better than the original Kel-Tec.

 

[JHansenAK47]

I'm talking about how they "point" (ergonomics), not their controls. I've come to prefer the frame mounted safety/decocker of my CZ but my Beretta92FS and Ruger P97DC both have them mounted on the slide and it's not that big a deal.

I think they feel remarkably similar to my Beretta Cougar. The slide profile is definitely different though. On the older fixed sights I would sweep the safety racking the pistol but the newer ones with fixed novak looking sights seem to have eliminated that issue for me. I'm thinking of getting one in 45 with the new sights.

 

[Wolfman_556]

I'm not calling the Baby Eagle junk by any means, just to clarify.

The only criticism I could give it is Magnum Research should have marketed it under a different name. "Baby Eagle" IMO makes it sound wimpy and doubtless there are those who would pass it by simply because of the name and that's too bad for them. They should have called it what the Israelis call it: the Jericho.

Perhaps another good name would have been Desert Falcon?

I'm only making this critique from a marketing point of view.

(JMO)

Ergonomics aside, I thought the Baby Eagle I shot was a pretty good pistol overall. It was accurate and solid, and I have handled worse pistols as far as handling goes. For me, the CZ-75B fits my hand much better. YMMV.

 

[JHansenAK47]

The only criticism I could give it is Magnum Research should have marketed it under a different name. "Baby Eagle" IMO makes it sound wimpy and doubtless there are those who would pass it by simply because of the name and that's too bad for them. They should have called it what the Israelis call it: the Jericho.

I believe they did originally call it the Jericho. Another thing is the original pistols had frame mounted safeties more akin to a cz75 clone/tanfoglio variation. I think the name is more of a marketing strategy playing off the fame of the desert eagle pistol.

 

[Disaster]

For a twist to the question (hope the OP doesn't mind) who makes the "best value" in a clone? Doesn't have to match, part for part, just be machined well and be durable. Bears asking now that CZ's aren't as inexpensive as they used to be.