"Speed kills?"

[ArmedBear]

Just got back from Montana.

One shot, one buffalo. One of the largest animals in North America, and tough, too.

The bullet was traveling at about 1100 fps, with about 1400 ft/lb of energy (half of a typical factory .30-06), when it hit. Went in one side, straight through, and out the other, clean holes on both sides. Was a plain lead round nose bullet.

How did that work? It was a 520 grain .458 bullet I cast in a Lyman mold, in a .45-70 Sharps replica, loaded with GOEX black powder.

Now the guy who showed up with a .300 Win Mag hit his buffalo twice, and a guide had to finish it off -- with an antique black powder .50-70.

When you look at the velocity of the old black powder buffalo round, it's pistol-class. When you look at the energy, it's varmint-round class. Clearly these numbers don't matter NEARLY as much as we have been led to believe.

Something to think about, when you pay for an expensive, hard-kicking magnum. If you have a range finder and a ladder sight, a 1300 fps MV rifle from the 1870s will probably kill game better.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

They worked a hundred and fifty years ago, no reason to think the BP .45-70 wouldn't work well now

 

[alucard0822]

muzzle energy is no substitute for shot placement and penetration. A heavy slow bullet, that busts through the boiler room will stop a big critter in it's tracks, a light fast bullet might have a lot of ME, but it cannot sustain momentum, and dumps its energy in a shallower depth, can be absorbed by hitting a bone (bone usually shatters) and normally results in a lot of bloodshot meat. There is no question BP cartridges loaded with big bullets are effective, they wiped most of the Bison off of the plains in a very short ammount of time.

 

[MCgunner]

If I could buy BP anymore, I would. I've found ONE source north of San Antonio in all of Texas. I'm trying different substitutes in my .50 Hawken. Pyrodex is the standby proven.

Congrats! I'd like to take one of them things someday, but it'll probably never happen on my piddlin' income. In a few years, I hope to get back out to New Mexico and maybe do some elk hunting. That'll be exotic enough for me.

You know, a good story deserves a picture.

Far as modern vs old, all velocity really does is increase effective range, rather dramatically , over the old BP stuff. But, the BP stuff kills 'em just as dead. Oh, sure, you can lob that 500 grain plus chunk of lead 400 yards, but you need a laser, a computer, and a weather station to make the shot. Oh, the old timers did it, but they weren't really concerned with ethical hunting, only with making money.

A heavy slow bullet, that busts through the boiler room will stop a big critter in it's tracks, a light fast bullet might have a lot of ME, but it cannot sustain momentum, and dumps its energy in a shallower depth, can be absorbed by hitting a bone (bone usually shatters) and normally results in a lot of bloodshot meat.

Oh, I don't know. I don't think a .338 is going to NOT penetrate fully a buff with a good Barnes or Partition bullet. Gotta match the gun and load to the game. You wouldn't wanna use a .31 caliber BP, either. With modern calibers, you look at energy charts and bullets that penetrate. With BP, it's simple, how big is the bullet?

 

[eliphalet]

Way to go Armedbear, congratulations on a successful hunt.
Any pictures? and how did you finally decide to get all that meat back to SD? Be sure and give us updates on taste etc.

Muzzle loaders penetrate fine I was lucky enough to shoot a cow elk last fall, my buddy got one this week. Both animals had a bullet into the lungs go completely through and out, solid lead no sabots. elk are not the size of buffalo thats impressive penetration.

 

[ks farmboy]

ive taken two buffalo so far, dropped the first one with a 30.06 at one hunderd yards, the second dropped at 20 yards with a 300 win mag ultra mag. my vote is it is all about the shot placement and my two hunts back that up.

 

[alucard0822]

Oh, I don't know. I don't think a .338 is going to NOT penetrate fully a buff with a good Barnes or Partition bullet. Gotta match the gun and load to the game. You wouldn't wanna use a .31 caliber BP, either. With modern calibers, you look at energy charts and bullets that penetrate. With BP, it's simple, how big is the bullet?

338 isn't exactly "light and fast", and a 31cal cap&ball isn't exactly big and slow. I have never had a well placed 12ga slug fail to drop a deer, but have had a few make it a couple hundred yards after a decent placed hit with 150gr 30-06. The slug punches a big hole through, the 06 blows soft tissue apart, but didn't drop the deer as quick, and in a couple cases, shattering the shoulder bone, and leaving a deformed bullet laying only a couple inches past it. There just might be something to that Taylor factor after all. The old timers used to be able to accurately shoot 1000 yards with creedmore equiped sharps rifles, that range might not be ideal for an ethical kill, the bullet will still get there, it just takes longer, and you have to slide the peep higher, no black majic or gps guided bullets needed.

these folks made a competition out of it: http://www.thss.org/long_range_rifle.htm


taylor factor and ME calculator http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

 

[MCgunner]

Taylor's factor worked for express rifles 100 years ago. It's really based on momentum, which is what big and slow takes to penetrate. It cannot be applied to modern high velocity rounds. I've even seen it used to support the .45 over the .357 magnum in handguns, total rubbish. I'll stick to my .357 as minimum for deer and hog hunting, thanks and I like it (with a different load) for self defense.

I've had one deer out of probably 30 fail to drop right there from a .257 Roberts. That rifle has made at least one shot over 300 yards. That one deer, the bullet failed to open, switched bullets after that. Like my .308, it doesn't ruin a lot of meat, either, another fallacy. It's a GREAT deer caliber, hard to beat with anything, let alone a .45-70. Ever shoot a deer with a 7mm Remington Magnum? DRT, trust me. Yeah, it's excessive and can ruin meat with a shoulder shot, but the lungs vaporize in a deer with that caliber. It is very impressive what a massive shock wave from a bullet in the 3400 ft lb 3300 fps range can do to soft tissue. There is more to know when matching a load and caliber in a modern rifle to game, especially heavy game. BP rifles are simple enough for uneducated mountain men to comprehend. BIGGER IS BETTER, pretty simple. That concerns my reference to the .31. Bigger animal, bigger bullet. DUH. Don't need to read up on Taylor's power factor to figure THAT one out.

Compared to a .45-70, the .338 is small and fast. If that ain't enough for ya, move up t the .375 H and H. Actually, a 7 mag will take Buffalo, though, just as a .30-06 will and do it quickly. I'd use the 160 partition in the 7 and feel confident.

Of course big and slow can get it done. Back well before my time it was getting it done, just gotta get closer and it does it in a different manor to the high velocity round, but it does the job and hunting with a BP loaded .45-70 has to be a special trip when you are successful.

Muzzle loaders penetrate fine I was lucky enough to shoot a cow elk last fall, my buddy got one this week. Both animals had a bullet into the lungs go completely through and out, solid lead no sabots. elk are not buffalo thats impressive penetration.

What bullet and caliber? Just asking because this Hawken Hunter Carbine I have has a fast twist and shoots a HEAVY lead minie ball about as good as it does sabot .44 cal stuff. It's a .50. I bought this thing to play with and had the thought of doing New Mexico's BP deer season with it. There are advantages to hunting BP season there, a month long season, better weather, fewer people. I got the Hawken hunter because I wanted to be at least pseudo-traditional, though I'm cheating with a conversion to small rifle magnum primers to gain some ignition reliability.

I have 2 minies that are accurate in that rifle, a 385 grain hornady "great plains" bullet and my own cast from a Lee mold, 360 grain plain nose (no hollow point like the Hornady). Just wondering what you were using on the elk. If similar, it'll help me be secure in my choice of bullets when I do get to go out there next. Thanks in advance and sorry about the slight thread jack.

 

[ArmedBear]

hunting with a BP loaded .45-70 has to be a special trip when you are successful.

That it is.

I pity this guy, for missing out on it:

ive taken two buffalo so far, dropped the first one with a 30.06 at one hunderd yards, the second dropped at 20 yards with a 300 win mag ultra mag.

Would not have been the same, at all. BP cartridge was not my idea; the guy who put the party together wanted that (he knows a lot of buffalo hunting history, and he and a couple others in the group own original rifles from the 1870s, which were used in the hunt). I was talked into it. It was a hassle casting those bullets and making a load that fit the gun right, but after all was said and done, I'd do it again.

I wouldn't even consider using a modern magnum. It'd ruin the whole thing. It's hard to explain why, exactly, but it would.

I snapped this picture of some of the other guys setting up for a shot:


WRT price, this hunt, the gas, food, and the meat processing for sausages, etc., works out to be cheaper than buying meat from the grocery store. Oh yeah, three of us butchered our own buffalo, though we did have help on the last one since it was getting dark and very cold. Hardest I've ever worked on "vacation". Next time, I'll use more than a 3" knife.

More details later re that; my wife needs the PC.

 

[MCgunner]

That sounds like so much fun I'm not sure I could handle it all. LOL Man, that's some wide open country there. I've got to get started with this musket of mine. Need to start hunting with it. Really have few excuses not to. But using an old cartridge on buffalo just sounds too cool.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

Armedbear, where was this hunt? private ranch, guided, etc?

Curious about the details. Any pictures of you and your buff? I'd love to see

 

[NRA4LIFE]

I'm curious to know how much meat you got off the beast.

 

[ArmedBear]

A few pics coming, BTW. I don't remember the password to post pics to the site my wife has...

We arrived Sunday morning, and I slept in the rolling hills, in a canvas tent with a wood frame and a wood stove. It was COLD, and I'm from San Diego, so I'm not exactly acclimated to way-below-freezing weather.

We had a guide, and an amateur guide. Some guys had done this before. Serious BPC shooters. One bowhunter, four rifle hunters. Rifles used: Sharps .50-70 original, octagon barrel rifle, Springfield .45-70 "trapdoor" original in near-new condition (!), Remington .45-70 Rolling Block original with new Badger barrel, Pedersoli .45-70 Sharps replica, octagon rifle. All loads black powder and hand-cast lead bullets. Took a few days to get close to the buffalo.

This was on a large private ranch; owner's family has owned it since the Civil War. He has a herd; now and again he rounds them up and trades or sells some, but otherwise they're pretty much on their own out there. He culls a few now and then by selling hunts, though it's a word-of-mouth thing; he helps by gutting them, hauling them home with a tractor, etc. Real nice guy. We butchered them in his barn.

WRT meat, we didn't have a scale. I'll find out from the butcher what we sent to them, but we had a lot of bags, and I'd put the weight of each at over 50 lbs., boned out. I didn't even count the bags. We used a big tractor to move them from the barn to a pickup truck. Then we brought home a few of those, plus 3 hindquarters, three shoulders, all the backstraps and tenderloins, some ribs, etc.

Hundreds of pounds of boned-out meat per person, is a conservative estimate, and these weren't trophy-sized animals, even. Like I said, we used a big tractor to load the meat on the trucks!

I'm going to have to get a freezer, but all told, the hunt is more than paid for by the meat we get from it.

BTW I didn't mean to suggest a .300 Win Mag won't kill anything. However, apart from flatter trajectories, I was surprised at the improvements modern cartridges DON'T offer over what was available in the early 1870s.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OB and PB greetings bro!

Sorry couldn't resist the connection as I'm a displaced San Diego boy myself. You're right about heavy and at a moderate speed, using lead or lead alloy. In VA or MD I use an all lead 225 grain projectile doing about 1300 fps, and at under 100 yards it goes in and comes out. No muss no fuss.

I'm thinking about a .38-55 but I think it's too light for anything larger than deer, so will probably opt for a .45-70. Had a chance at a .50-90 lever action but the $$ was a bit much.

LD

 

[ArmedBear]

Here on the hill in OB (barely), right on the line between Republican and Democrat. Was in PB for 10 years.

This isn't the best picture I got, but it's the one that's uploaded.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, them plains Indians knew how to eat! Why fart around with deer when there's stuff like that roaming around?

 

[eliphalet]

Way cool! I am green with envy ArmedBear. Animal, hunt, gun, the whole thing.
Way to go!

 

[Geno]

There is one reason that so many Civil War soldiers lost limbs to injuries...big bullets destroy whatever they hit.

Congrats...now, ah...when do we eat?!

Geno

 

[Grizfire]

Buffalo is one of the best tasting meats I've tried. I'm extremely jealous. I bought a few raffle tickets for a bison hunt near where I live, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed, albeit the most adequate rifle I own is a .280, I hope it will get the job done if need be.

So are ya gonna make a mount or anything? Perhaps a nice new buffalo rug is in order?

 

[Geno]

Ruby Tuesday offers buffalo burgers. Quite simply delicious!

Geno

 

[El Tejon]

Ruby Tuesday? Nah, here you can get fresh bison (and a fresh beer). You know like a lobster tank, http://www.lafayettebrewingco.com/

Nice animal, AB. In your honor I'm going to wonder down the street this week and have a bison burger.

BTW, did you recover the bullet, or was it a tnt?

 

[ArmedBear]

WRT various posts...

Griz, I hope you win the raffle! Consider getting one of these if you do. Well under $400 retail brand new, including Williams receiver sight and Lyman front sight. Cut-checkered walnut and CCH receiver. Much less expensive than a Sharps replica, but should give you the same experience (and better sights!). The money you save on meat over the next year or more will pay for the rifle many times over.

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/buffalo.aspx



We are getting our hides tanned (got a good deal on that, too, from a top-notch guy) and I'm getting a European mount. I don't have the real estate for a shoulder mount!

It was a tnt. I had to orient myself to figure out which one was the entry and which was the exit, when we boned out the skinned carcass. They looked about the same. Another guy recovered a bullet that had hit a bone. It was deformed, but seemed to be all there still.

 

[cracked butt]

The bullet was traveling at about 1100 fps, with about 1400 ft/lb of energy (half of a typical factory .30-06), when it hit. Went in one side, straight through, and out the other, clean holes on both sides. Was a plain lead round nose bullet.

How did that work? It was a 520 grain .458 bullet I cast in a Lyman mold, in a .45-70 Sharps replica, loaded with GOEX black powder.

Now the guy who showed up with a .300 Win Mag hit his buffalo twice, and a guide had to finish it off -- with an antique black powder .50-70.

When you look at the velocity of the old black powder buffalo round, it's pistol-class. When you look at the energy, it's varmint-round class. Clearly these numbers don't matter NEARLY as much as we have been led to believe.

Something to think about, when you pay for an expensive, hard-kicking magnum. If you have a range finder and a ladder sight, a 1300 fps MV rifle from the 1870s will probably kill game better.

I read somewhere while researching muzzleloaders that the Hawken style rifles were originally made with larger western animals like the Bison/elk/Grizzly in mind. Popular eastern rifles like the Kentucky or Pennsylvania rifle were typically much smaller caliber while the Hawkens were typically in .50 or .54 to give them enough power to punch all the way through the larger western animals. I figure that is a .54 roundball can take a bison, a 45-70 or any other of the 45- BPCR cartridges should be able to do it easily.

 

[BIGR]

I have taken deer with a muzzle loader using 240 to 295 bullets and put them down where they stood. I know some of them wouldn't have went down any better if I had used a 300 win mag on them. Never lost one when using a smoke pole. Big slow bullets will put them in the dirt.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

great pic armedbear. was the hunt in Cali?