RSABear
Member
Very well done.
Speed of an attack
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Very well done.
MachIVshooter
Member
That sounds like a fun game. We've only played the other way-"bad guy" holding a gun to your head, you clear the line of fire before he's able to drop hammer, preferably having disarmed him in the process.
And I'm not suggesting that reaction can happen faster than action, just that some people, especially those of us who have youth and vigilance on our side, can react a whole lot quicker than the averages indicate, and that counting on a person taking in excess of one second to percieve, process and respond to your action could be a fatal error. At the drag strip, ideal reaction time is .35-.4 seconds. That's about .1 second to register the green light, .1 second to process the necessary action, and .1-.2 seconds to release brake and hammer down. I'd say an unanticipated event adds about .2 seconds to my reaction.
Example: I was riding home late one night from a friends house down a paved country rode. My speed was between 110 and 120 MPH the entire time. I crossed a bridge that arced a little, and upon my headlamp leveling out, saw that the road curved approximately 120 feet ahead of me (I later counted 6 dashed lines from the point where my headlamp leveled to the curve, each being 10 feet long and 10 feet apart) . Though narrowly, I was able to perceive, process and determine a course of action, narrowly avoiding shooting off the road at suicide speeds. At 115 MPH, you cover 120 feet in .7 seconds. Granted, on a bike, you're more alert and your hands and feet are already on the controls.
So, once again, not saying that I could win your game; You can probably raise and fire that pistol in about .3 seconds. Just making note that some people have much better reflexes than the averages in published data, and we should not bet our lives on someone being "average".
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
A bit quicker, actually. The freaky thing is that Bill Jordan could draw from the leather and fire...and hit...
in under 3/10ths of a second from audio signal to shot.
That's wicked fast.
AlaskaErik
Member
Forget the shotgun. During a home invasion there isn't time to go round it up. If you carry 100 percent of the time while you're outside the home, what is the percentage while in the home? I find it's easier to just carry inside the home. That way it won't be a temptation to not arm up for a quick run to the store or mail box. It's also easier to just stay armed after coming home. Because I'm always armed at home all I need to do is draw my weapon and immediately start dealing with the problem. My Glock 23 has a 13 round magazine, so that's a good start. If I need more ammo, I also carry a spare mag. 26 rounds should cover 99 percent of any situation I might face at home.
MachIVshooter
Member
Yes, that is. I can (or could, at one time) get off a shot from the holster in .5, but hitting a target is another story. I used ballons at 20 feet, and was about 1 in 6 for hits. Hip shooting is tricky.
I stopped practicing quick draw after ripping my jeans open at the knee with a bullet. Another half inch to the left, and I'd have been in the ER. That wasn't the first round I let fly before the muzzle leveled, but it was the only one that nearly left me crippled.
RSABear
Member
It is not my intention to spread doom and gloom, or say anything negative about the country I live in. This should be a movitation to be more aware and think about that possible attack "when they came out of nowhere..."
The following has significant impact on the subject of “Speed of an attack”. I wanted to start a new thread but then decided many of the thread viewers and contributors will really benefit from the following report:
Sometimes it is a split second decision that needs to be made:
Do I surrender?
Do I turn to hand-to-hand combat?
Do I go for my gun?
or
Do I turn and run?
There are many more, but an insight into the criminal mind may also be key.
What is his/her/their intention(s)?
Why are they targeting me?
What will and can happen next?
I quote as follows and sorry this is not for the faint hearted:
“The reason why criminals shoot and kill their victims are perpetrating the initial crime (such as robbery) remains a contentious and unexplained phenomenon. This kind of behaviour is not unique to South Africa, however. In a report by the Police Executive Research Forum (2006:6-7) that was based on crime figures for the United States, it was found that not only was robbery becoming more prevalent, but also more deadly. As one of the police chiefs observed: ‘[A] disturbing aspect in a number of robberies was that upon completion of the robbery the victim was shot anyway.’’
The link to the full report is:
http://www.afriforum.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/states-response-to-crime-etc.pdf
Are we trying to fight fire with fire?
The following has significant impact on the subject of “Speed of an attack”. I wanted to start a new thread but then decided many of the thread viewers and contributors will really benefit from the following report:
Sometimes it is a split second decision that needs to be made:
Do I surrender?
Do I turn to hand-to-hand combat?
Do I go for my gun?
or
Do I turn and run?
There are many more, but an insight into the criminal mind may also be key.
What is his/her/their intention(s)?
Why are they targeting me?
What will and can happen next?
I quote as follows and sorry this is not for the faint hearted:
“The reason why criminals shoot and kill their victims are perpetrating the initial crime (such as robbery) remains a contentious and unexplained phenomenon. This kind of behaviour is not unique to South Africa, however. In a report by the Police Executive Research Forum (2006:6-7) that was based on crime figures for the United States, it was found that not only was robbery becoming more prevalent, but also more deadly. As one of the police chiefs observed: ‘[A] disturbing aspect in a number of robberies was that upon completion of the robbery the victim was shot anyway.’’
The link to the full report is:
http://www.afriforum.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/states-response-to-crime-etc.pdf
Are we trying to fight fire with fire?
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Absolutely. I've adopted my grandfather's dictum.
"If I've got my pants on, I've got my gun on. You may not see it...but it's there."
With the rise in sudden, daylight home invasions...it only makes good sense. Another good reasoning is the encroachment of Coyotes into populated areas. Seems that almost every day, I hear about a 'yote in somebody's back yard. They've even been spotted in NYC's Central Park.
Not too shabby! Due to a shoulder injury some years back...a result of a reckless, misspent youth...I could never do much better than .75 from a carry/concealment holster. Never used a speed rig, so I don't have a clue about that. Now that the years have multiplied the effects of that mishap by handing me a dose of bursitis...it's slowed me down a bit more, but on a good day, I can still manage a second from under a coat.
I understand. Jordan practiced with wax bullets and primed cases only...and, of course...extensive dry-fire. Whenever I practice with live ammo, I never go at full speed, but rather strive for smoothness and exact repetition of motion.
In the final analysis...the old gunfighter's axiom that the fastest draw is to have the gun in your hand when the trouble starts is
absolutely true. Don't get caught in Condition White.
RSABear
Member
The key is wax, after making several hundred wax bullets for my 44 Mag, I upgraded to using dowel pins. One missed the target and went straight through my wooden garage door - only driven by a primer. I am back to wax.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yup. That woulda made for a nasty wound.
Just FYI...I've come across some .45 Colt cases that are specifically intended to use wax bullets. The primer pockets are designed to accept shotgun primers. I don't know if they're available in other calibers, but thought I'd pass that along. Pretty neat idea. Of course, the original intent is for CAS Fast-Draw..but other possibilities are quiet pest control when loaded with wooden bullets.
MachIVshooter
Member
Yeah, .5 is not from concealment. That was using a conventional single action strong side hip holster, low cut and loose. From concealment, I'm more like .8-.9. Best time for 3 shots on a silhouette @ 15 ft. from concealment was either 1.46 or 1.64 (3 years ago, memory is fading
).
KBintheSLC
Member
I was robbed at gunpoint on the street about 12 years ago. They hit me with a car, then stuck a gun in my face. The entire thing lasted about 20 seconds.
Nowadays, when I walk down the street I have my carry gun in my hand in a jacket pocket. I assume that I am about 0.7 seconds away from delivering my first shot. About half what it is from concealment IWB.
Nowadays, when I walk down the street I have my carry gun in my hand in a jacket pocket. I assume that I am about 0.7 seconds away from delivering my first shot. About half what it is from concealment IWB.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
That'll getcha home alive, unless you're in "white" and get started too far behind the curve.
IMHO...Seein' it comin' before it starts is the key to the whole thing.
If you can do that, 2 seconds from the opening bell to the shot will do the trick.
Time will go by slowly if you have trained and are prepared and have good awareness. A couple of people have mentioned this and I can testify to it myself. Once I felt comfortable being on the track and got used to the speed, I could be going 120 and it would feel like I was going in slow-motion, especially during certain events such as passing someone or when the rear tire starts sliding or the front pushing...those things happen very fast (1/10 sec) but it feels very slow and your reactions feel much faster (they are). I have been in a few incidents with regard to attackers and it felt very slow, and I feel that it had to do with being aware and prepared.
I used to be a MSF Ridercoach, and there are some good similarities between bikes and firearms that I was considering putting together. One example is the comparison between what MSF call "rider-radar" in which a person is developing worst-case scenarios at different points in time (aka "situational awareness").
I used to be a MSF Ridercoach, and there are some good similarities between bikes and firearms that I was considering putting together. One example is the comparison between what MSF call "rider-radar" in which a person is developing worst-case scenarios at different points in time (aka "situational awareness").
DualBerettas
Member
can happen VERY fast...
DB
DB
Kind of Blued
Member
I should have clarified. I live with two people, and carry two guns 100% of the time. They carry zero guns 100% of the time. I have 30-38 rounds on me at any given time loaded, or in reloads. As you said, 99% of all problems could be solved then and there. Chances are I won't even have to leave the couch, considering the way my house is setup.
Of course, there was that 1% left over, and that's where the shotgun, and the plan to get it while keeping everybody safe, comes in.
I watched the show "First 48" last week. It was about a home invasion/ murder of 6 people in Nashville TN. Apparently the victim had robbed the BGs a few days earlier and they came for revenge. Pretty gruesome stuff given that aside from 4 adults 2 children were killed and other 3 critically wounded. In any case, the cops found a shotgun right next to the victim. He naver had a chance to take action and was murdered along with his girlfriend and 2 friends.
So, like you said, forget the shotgun. A handgun is much quicker to employ and easier to conceal. So much for the argument "why would anyone need a handgun for home defense when long guns are available".
Just my $.02
So, like you said, forget the shotgun. A handgun is much quicker to employ and easier to conceal. So much for the argument "why would anyone need a handgun for home defense when long guns are available".
Just my $.02
chuckusaret
member
There is no time to round up, I have a round chambered in my CC and in my HD shotgun, shotgun safety off pull trigger, CC pull trigger.
ezenbrowntown
Member
There is a big difference between an alert reaction time versus a startled one. I thought about this last night on my way home. With my 13 month son and I riding home, I pulled off on a country road late last night to "relieve" myself, as to not have to get my son out of the car. During that time, I was very alert (unfamilar surroundings, late at night, etc.) to all things around me. Midway into the "relieving", two birds quail were apparently startled and made a bunch of noise as they flew away. Of course the noise startled me, even though I was alert and looking around. It would have slowed me down, no doubt about it.
Take the same scenario but up the ante. A pack of 4 guys comes in your house while you're laid up watching television? I'd hope I wouldn't freeze a bit, but I don't see how you couldn't. That's a tough spot to be in for sure.
Take the same scenario but up the ante. A pack of 4 guys comes in your house while you're laid up watching television? I'd hope I wouldn't freeze a bit, but I don't see how you couldn't. That's a tough spot to be in for sure.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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I just want to chime in real quick to say that I believe that the *most serious attacks* - the ones that are life-threatening, do normally happen - far more often than not - in the blink of an eye, and faster than the majority of people realize, even pistol-toting gun owners. Things can go down really really fast, which is why I don't agree with the "you don't need one in the pipe" argument.
At least half of my actual training for self defense doesn't revolve around a gun. It involves staying alive and getting away from a person who comes out of no where with a knife, bat, etc. In other words you are suddenly on your back after an attack and fighting for your life. For that instance I have been taking martial arts krav magah like training, working with knives, etc.
It is fun to dream that you are going to have the time to pull your gun and take that perfect shot but it ain't gonna happen.
So bassically if you have all your self-defense needs in one basket marked gun you are a damn fool.
It is fun to dream that you are going to have the time to pull your gun and take that perfect shot but it ain't gonna happen.
So bassically if you have all your self-defense needs in one basket marked gun you are a damn fool.
Almost completely disagree...things tend not to surprise you when you pay attention to what is going on. The signs are there most of the time, you just have to read them. And yes, I've been in situations a few times and was able to take action soon enough to avoid having to shoot.
and most of my training involved not being in a situation to begin with. Much easier than having to deal with being on your back. The best incident to be in is the one that you avoid, and not the one that you're thankful that you survived.
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