Speed Reloads & Cylinder Machining

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For those of you guys who were saying 4 second revolver reloads," I bought a shot timer this week and did a few two-shot reload drills. (Draw, fire, eject and reload, fire again). Reloads are about 8 seconds.
 
For those of you guys who were saying 4 second revolver reloads," I bought a shot timer this week and did a few two-shot reload drills. (Draw, fire, eject and reload, fire again). Reloads are about 8 seconds.

Grab some snap caps at least enough to fill one, preferably more, speed loaders. At home practice till you get to <=4 seconds. Practice is everything. Rome wasn't built in a day, it just burned down in one........
 
I start the stage with 15 loaded speedloaders in a pouch on my front right side, just ahead of the revolver/holster. When I reload, I eject the brass, reach into the pouch with my right hand, and grab a speedloader. Sometimes I have to tumble it around to get it right side up and ready to go into the cylinder.
As mentioned already, you need to switch to holders that keep your speedloaders oriented properly and that hold each one individually.

If I were going to shoot the Redhawk in competition, I would be using the 8 shot .357Mag version. Two more rounds before you need to reload, and it comes from the factory already set up for moon clips. The extra capacity is really going to be useful.

If you're not using moon clips, get some SafariLand speedloaders--the ones that dump the rounds when you press the loader into the cylinder. The HKS loaders handicap you two ways. They don't hold the rounds as steady in the loader as the SafariLand loaders which means that the rounds don't index into the cylinder as nicely, and you have to actually twist the knob to get them to release.

Try this method for your reloads.

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK5/miculek5.html

The gun stays in the left hand which controls the cylinder opening, turns the muzzle up so that the left thumb can dump the empties and then the left hand turns the gun muzzle down to accept the new load.

The right hand retrieves the new load (stored on the right side for easy access), dumps it into the cylinder and then the left hand closes the cylinder while the right hand gets back on target.

That's a good competition reload. For self-defense, it would be better to slap the ejection rod with the right hand rather than use the thumb to dump the empties. That will slow things down a little, but the more positive ejection is a good thing when having a stubborn case stick might mean more than a lower stage score. Pick which one you want to do and stick with it.

Go through the process intentionally keeping the speed slow until you can do it smoothly and it starts to feel automatic. Then you can stop intentionally going slowly and just go at a comfortable speed. Don't try to go fast--just go as fast as feels good. The more you practice, the faster you'll get but it won't feel like you're rushing.

This technique, with practice, with the right equipment, and with round-nose jacketed rounds, should make 4-5 second reloads relatively easily attainable.
 
To test my assertion above, I did a little practice and then timed 5 straight speed reloads.

Here's the reload procedure I used.
  1. The right thumb opens the cylinder--I know the left would be faster but I've got too many years of punching the latch with the right thumb to change easily.
  2. The left hand controls the cylinder opening and then the index & middle finger go through the cylinder opening to control the gun and hold the cylinder in place.
  3. The left hand angles the muzzle upward and the left thumb punches the ejector rod.
  4. While that's happening, the right hand retrieves the speedloader and brings it to the gun.
  5. With the empties out, the left hand angles the muzzle downward and the right hand pushes the rounds in and keeps pushing until the speedloader releases the rounds.
  6. The right hand clears the speedloader allowing any rounds that aren't all the way into the cylinder to drop in, and the left hand closes the cylinder.
  7. The right hand takes a shooting grip and the left hand repositions into a shooting grip as the gun comes back up on target.
Equipment.
Stock 4" GP100--no chamber chamfering.
Safariland Speedloader Comp II
A-Zoom .357Mag snaps caps.

Commentary on equipment: Using the A-Zooms skews things slightly. They are heavier than empty cases and aren't expanded from firing and so ejection was smoother than it would be with fired cases. They are also very smooth and so they sort of auto-align with the cylinder when charging the chambers. I think that this effect would be duplicated with jacketed bullets with a "reload-friendly" nose profile.

The SafariLand speedloader is a pretty critical piece of equipment. Not only does it release the rounds automatically when it is pressed into the cylinder, the design supports the cases very well so that they aren't wiggling/flopping around. That makes getting the rounds into the cylinder a lot easier than the HKS design where the rounds have considerable leeway to wiggle around.

I don't have a speedloader belt holder so I slipped 2 rounds of the speedloader over my right pocket so it was held in the proper orientation with the rounds down. A proper holder might be a little slower than that, but not much.

Commentary on procedure: This was done dryfiring, not with live fire. While I did my best to make sure that the sights were aligned for both the starting and stopping "shots", there is no accuracy component to this process.

Timing was done manually (got the wife to help out) with an online "stopwatch" so there is no doubt some timing error on both the stop and start. However I think that's probably negligible for our purposes.

Previous skill level:
I do not shoot revolvers competitively so I have not practiced speed reloads. I have shot revolvers a good deal, but I have never messed with trying to get good at reloading rapidly.

To give you an idea of my situation at the start of this experiment, I had forgotten how the speedloader worked and had to figure out how it released the rounds, and also how to reload it. So this should be pretty representative of what could be expected from someone who is experienced with revolvers but had never really practiced speedloading one.

I do not consider myself to be a quick learner where hand-eye coordination is involved. It usually takes me more reps than other people before things start feeling smooth and automatic. I estimate that I did 20-25 dry-runs before the timed reloads below.

Results:
Reload 1: 4.4 seconds
Reload 2: 5.9 seconds (bobbled this one)
Reload 3: 4.7 seconds
Reload 4: 4.8 seconds (slight bobble)
Reload 5: 5.7 seconds (bobbled this one)

Overall Average: 5.1 seconds
Average of smooth reloads: 4.6 seconds
Average of bobbled reloads: 5.5 seconds

These reloads were done in exactly the order presented and with no results thrown out. Even my bobbled reloads were all under 6 seconds. With several more days of practice--maybe 200 total reps, I think that I could be consistently in the low 4 second range.
 
I want to say something but I don't want to come across as a jerk or someone that thinks that they are really good at this or an authority.

As far as actual technique for reloads is concerned I personally have tried doing it the way the pros do it and I have come to the conclusion that we should do it the way that suits us best. Mine are strong hand reloads, the gun is in my right hand the whole time. Doesn't mean that I have mastered the reload but for me it is the place to work diligently for improvement..

A few weeks ago I shot in a very well attended level 2 steel challenge match, in "main match" I was ranked in the low 40s so that put me in the top quarter of all centerfire shooters. In other words, with a revolver I beat a lot of auto loaders. While I still have some way to go before I'm famous or something I can state with confidence that where I'm at right now is the result of a lot of effort and mostly dry fire practice. For 3 years I sucked royally and finished at the bottom, last winter instead of doing other things I got the revo out and spent 30 minutes a day practicing. There might be other ways to get better but ask me I say dry fire 4-6 days per week and after a while it will pay off. Still a slow climb but slow improvement is better than no improvement.

Revolver is a very hard gun to get good at. Key word: Good. If someone wants to be good because they carry a revolver then their options are limited if they don't want to compete because the pressure and very nature of competition will force those that want to excel to work at it. I have no doubt that there are some individuals that can become accomplished revolver shooter and never compete but I think that would be rare.

I furthermore do not understand the thinking that if you shoot something other than your carry gun you will falter if you need to use your carry gun. It comes across as purest or hints that you somehow contaminate yourself. In my opinion gun handling skill are gun handling skills, sure you need to know your carry gun but I don't think you need to be married to it.
 
I agree about tailoring the method. The idea that there's one procedure that is the best procedure for everyone is convenient for instructors who only want to teach one procedure but it's not reality.

I wasn't trying to say that the method I mentioned was the only good way to do it, only that it's a way that works for some, and a way that worked for me--after I modified it a little bit. I couldn't get used to releasing the cylinder with my left hand because I've spent too much time hitting the cylinder release with my right thumb.

Mostly what I was trying to get across is that from a standing start (no experience) it's possible to get into the 4-5 second range without a ton of practice if a decent reloading technique and the right equipment are used. For someone who's struggling to get below 8 seconds, I think that should be very encouraging.

Right hand reloads (keeping the gun in the right hand for the entire process) clearly work for some--at least one video posted on this thread shows a very fast right-hand reload. I went with transferring the gun to the left hand because the hardest part for me is reloading the cylinder and using my strong hand for that just made sense to me. I also like that the technique provides very positive control of the cylinder during the reloading process--it doesn't let it flip back into the frame during the process of pointing the muzzle up to dump the empties and then pointing it down while recharging the chambers. But obviously that isn't a problem for some shooters.
 
^^^I really wasn't directing my comments to anyone in particular. You give a well reasoned argument for what you do but good on you that you acknowledge that there are more than ten thousand fifty three million ways to skin a cat.

Another thing that a lot of posters talk about has to do with modern revolvers that are DA/SA and shooting them SA or just crow about the smooth "Ice on Glass" trigger in SA. Even if you go back to the 1930s-40s and read guys like Edward McGivern, they were saying that to be fast and accurate you must master the DA trigger. It is true that there are shooters that are fast and accurate shooting a SA revolver but after that first shot things change. To be good at fast SA shooting is actually considerable more training intensive than DA. The problem is that DA revolvers have long heavy triggers that require two things from the marksman, the first they need to spend a lot of time pulling the long heavy trigger and second they need to spend a few dollars on having the action tuned. This many times requires shooting custom handload ammo also. There is a huge difference between shooting 20 or 30 rounds over the course of an hour 2 or 3 times a year and shooting 200-400 rounds in an afternoon steel match.

I worked as an RO at a falling steel match late last year. This young shooter maybe 14 or 15 came to my stage with a factory stock N-Frame. This was his 2nd of 6 stages and he was already out of gas, he couldn't pull the DA trigger at all anymore so he shot SA. Speed and accuracy both suffer under this condition.
 
I appreciate the additional comments.

Competing with a different gun. I dunno. I thought about that. A lot. First, remember that this all driven by the fact that I'm shooting the gun I carry for bear defense. So all of the manipulations/manual of arms need to be identical, or nearly so. An 8-shot 357 isn't going to stop a 400 lb brown bear, (although...I carried a 10 hot 357 rifle for many years because that was all I had) so there is no need to train with one. So that means GP100. Financial constraints have precluded that. Really, I've been considering selling the Redhawk and buying a scandium Smith 44 magnum because I'm tired of carrying and wielding this 4 lb brick. (This gun is REALLY heavy.) But I know it won't hold up to constant use. The only other serious thought I've given to changing guns is going to an autoloader and that totally negates the entire reason for shooting in the local league.

Speedloaders. The only Safariland that will work with the Redhawk is the Comp I, which basically has no knob or anything by which to hold it. Which brings me to carriers. I can't find any carrier for the HKS or the Comp I that will hold ten speedloaders, so the dump pouch is all I have. The only set-up I've seen for multiple revolver reloads is the belt with all the posts for the moon clips. When I'm hunting/camping/fishing, etc., I carry a single speedloader in my front right pocket and another in my pack. I doubt I'm going to get a chance to reload twice with a bear.

So I'm pretty much constrained to the equipment I have.

Which brings me to Thomas' remarks about mastering the DA trigger pull. I agree. But man, it sucks. I used to like revolvers when I was younger, but I wasn't shooting them much, and I mostly shot them SA at bullseye targets. For the first time, I understand why I'm the only guy with a revolver at the range anymore, and why everyone else is shooting a Glock. What an eye-opener this experience has been.

As for dry-firing: I have completely ruled that out. You can read my other thread here on THR about "safe direction for dry fire," but, in a nutshell, there simply is no way to do it safely in my home. I recently got DQd for an ND with a 22 rifle (same match I shoot the Redhawk in), so that issue is very much in the front of my mind right now. Bottom line, there is jut no way to do dry fire where I live where I can accept the risk/consequence of an ND inside my home.
 
I used to like revolvers when I was younger, but I wasn't shooting them much, and I mostly shot them SA at bullseye targets. For the first time, I understand why I'm the only guy with a revolver at the range anymore, and why everyone else is shooting a Glock. What an eye-opener this experience has been.

Today, I shot revolver in my local steel league, this league has 7 member clubs, we have 2 matches at each club total 14 matches per year but anyone can shoot in them you don't need to be a member of any of the clubs. The competition is in my opinion fairy intense, a bunch of good shooters.

My score (time) in revolver was 79.85 this gave me 3rd in revolver. If I add up the total number of centerfire handguns shooting from a holster the number is 56 shooters. While I came in 3rd revo I placed 7th among the center fire guns. 7th out of 56 and two revo shooters did better than me. So I beat a bunch of auto loaders, about 50 of them and I'm a piker.

You can become good and fast and accurate with a revolver but it will take a lot more effort than a semi auto. It is up to you, you must find ways to get in the practice time and this only you can figure that one out we cannot help you there. But then again if you must have punching power for the possibility you come eye to eye with Mr. Bear your gonna need an auto loader that isn't fooling around a 9mm isn't enough.

In my league I also shoot rimfire open pistol. Thru the season I have improved on both guns. Again, I believe that gun handling skills are transferrable if the guns are similar. I think that if you can put in the vital of Mr. Bear 3 of the 6 rounds from your 44 magnum that should do it and if you get some serious practice in that should be no problemo.

There are two things that are extremely fun to do with a revolver in a competition, the first is beat a shooter that is wearing a sponsor shirt, the second is beating an open auto-loader. If I can do it anyone can. but it will not happen overnight.
 
I loaded some thousands of .38 wadcutters with Comp I loaders because they were faster than HKS and more secure than Dade, and because the Comp II and III had not come out yet.
They don't need a knob, you hold the body and push; the little button on top is just to latch up the cartridges when you fill the speedloader.
A tray or just a board with rings of holes to hold cartridges for speedloader filling is a big help.

What kind of steel match requires 60 rounds in rapid succession?
The Safariland 333 carrier would give you 24 rounds in a hurry, the gun and three speedloaders.
Refill the carrier from your bag between strings.
That sort of thing has served me well in PPC, IPSC, and IDPA competition. Haven't tried SC with a revolver yet, but it would work there, too.

I dryfire my revolvers in a frame house in the middle of town. I apply rigorous safety precautions. There is NO live ammunition in the room with reduced scale targets taped to the wall. I have a box of clearly marked dummy rounds (and some un-resized empties) for reload practice. I triple check that the speedloaders are empty before I bring them in the house.
 
So I'm pretty much constrained to the equipment I have.
Caliber:
I think that if you can shoot and have the right ammo for your revolver, a .357Mag should work as well against bear as a 10mm would given the similarity in most metrics between the two rounds. You can find an example of a 10mm working against a grizzly charge that was posted on THR within the last week or so--and there are professional organizations which issue 10mm pistols to deal with polar bears and have had good success.

Is .357Mag as good as the .44Mag for terminal effect? Probably not, but real-world evidence suggests that it is sufficient. And, of course, there's more than just terminal effect to consider. It's probably more shootable than the .44Mag for most folks and if you're talking about reloading, then we're talking about more than just one shot and therefore shootability (getting off multiple, rapid, accurate shots) is certainly a concern.

I also think that if you're concerned about reloading, then capacity should be given more than just a passing consideration. If you really need to get 8 rounds fired there's no faster way to do it than having 8 rounds already in the gun. No matter how good you get at reloading a revolver, just pulling the trigger again is always going to be WAY faster. And if you do have to reload, then for the penalty of only one reload, you get 16 rounds instead of 12.

Speedloaders & pouches:
But let's say you're constrained to the .44Mag and absolutely can't see changing. No problem--there are "no twist" speedloaders and pouches for the .44Mag Redhawk out there. I can't personally recommend this company because I haven't dealt with them, but it would probably be worthwhile to give some of their stuff a try. There may also be others out there--I'm not claiming that this is the result of an exhaustive or extensive search.

Here is a company that makes "Push in" (no twist) speedloaders for the .44 Redhawk.
https://www.speedbeez.com/product-c...es/ruger-speedloaders/ruger-44-speed-loaders/

They make matching speedloader pouches for the belt. I see no reason why you couldn't wear as many of these as you have belt space for.
https://www.speedbeez.com/product/speed-beez-44-magnum-speed-loader-pouch-6-shot/

Dryfiring:
If you really don't have any bookcases and can't make a simple dryfire backstop from some cheap used books, then you should be able to get relatively inexpensive body armor--perhaps used--to make a dryfire backstop. If you do a search for used IIIA trauma plates, you should be able to find something that will fit your budget.

You have a stated problem. At this point I think it's pretty clear what's causing your very slow reloads. Don't take this wrong, but it seems that you would rather accept the problem and spend time coming up with reasons that you don't want to change than change any of the factors that are contributing the problem. It's your prerogative to stick with your current approach, but I don't think you're being fair to yourself when you short-circuit the problem solving process by claiming that there's nothing you can do and nothing you can change.
 
I dryfire my revolvers in a frame house in the middle of town. I apply rigorous safety precautions. There is NO live ammunition in the room with reduced scale targets taped to the wall. I have a box of clearly marked dummy rounds (and some un-resized empties) for reload practice. I triple check that the speedloaders are empty before I bring them in the house.

Well said Sir.

If we apply the rule "treat every gun as a loaded gun", we check the chamber/cylinder when we first take it out of the case, then check it again before we start each string of dry fire practice. You Jim have clearly stated what I was thinking.

Google the PSA Shootout, Walls of Steel or the Blue Mountain Steel Classic. Maybe not 60 rounds but 40-45 falling steel targets in a stage. The actual number of shots of course depends on the number of misses.
 
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What kind of steel match requires 60 rounds in rapid succession?

Last week was 26 targets in the 1st string, 22 in the second string. I missed at least 8 times total. That's about 30 rounds the first time through. A few weeks back, the string had a spinner and a Texas star with that counter rotating "no shoot" pice, plus a plate rack of 8-10 plates descendingin size all the way down to 2". I went through 7 or 7 speedloaders the first tie through. We had to shoot it twice.

I'm telling you guys, they built this league for hi-cap 9 mils. Almost everything is staged around the idea that you reload after 15 rounds. They tell everyone to bring at least 100 rounds to a match, sometimes more. There is usually an average of 45-50 (50 seems to be the maximum) targets in a stage, which is usually broken up into 2-3 strings. But I'm now going to the great revolver narrative.
 
You have a stated problem. At this point I think it's pretty clear what's causing your very slow reloads. Don't take this wrong, but it seems that you would rather accept the problem and spend time coming up with reasons that you don't want to change than change any of the factors that are contributing the problem. It's your prerogative to stick with your current approach, but I don't think you're being fair to yourself when you short-circuit the problem solving process by claiming that there's nothing you can do and nothing you can change.

I came to the same conclusion after re-reading my own posts. Lot of whining in there.
 
No, that's not what I meant but I can see why my comment might come across that way. I don't see whining, I see that you do recognize the potential benefits of change (particularly from the standpoint of potential performance improvement) but that you seem more comfortable not changing. I recognize that attitude because I have a strong tendency in that direction myself. :D

Rather than changing everything, maybe try changing just one thing, or maybe two. Some better speedloaders and belt holders for them would make a big difference over the HKS twist loaders in a dump pouch. That lets you stick with the same gun, cartridge and capacity. Better yet, you could start with just one loader and pouch to minimize the out-of-pocket expense if you find you really don't like it.
 
No, that's not what I meant but I can see why my comment might come across that way.

Its okay. I thought you said it in a tactful, constructive way; I had already come to that conclusion before you made your comment. You just reinforced what I was already seeing in my own posts.

But I agree also with your (and others') suggestions that I need to do something different vis a vis equipment. Practicing getting good with what I have is wasted practice; I need to build a better set up.
 
Its okay. I thought you said it in a tactful, constructive way; I had already come to that conclusion before you made your comment. You just reinforced what I was already seeing in my own posts.

But I agree also with your (and others') suggestions that I need to do something different vis a vis equipment. Practicing getting good with what I have is wasted practice; I need to build a better set up.

I am not sure getting good with what you have is wasted practice. The skills you gain with your current setup will not go away if you change gear and you use that current setup for other things IIRC. There is no harm in improving your equipment, if you enjoy the game get a setup specific for the game but according to your earlier post you have room to improve with your current setup. You reported that you had 8 misses in 22-26 targets. That would make a shooter noncompetitive with or without running a revolver in such a falling steel match. You need to work on your accuracy first and fore most and, assuming its not a gun/ammo issue, you can do a lot to improve just by working on your accuracy. Had you simply not missed you would have eliminate 1-2 reloads right there and that would be a huge time bonus.
 
But I agree also with your (and others') suggestions that I need to do something different vis a vis equipment. Practicing getting good with what I have is wasted practice; I need to build a better set up.

I don't think that is exactly correct. You are asking about getting better and some of us are saying that if you are competing then different equipment will make things easier, this part is true. But more important, you have to be personally willing to put in the time and effort to get better. It is not just the gun its also the shooter. I have been shooting at steel with revolvers for 3+ years and I still haven't arrived yet. Not that I'm the measure of all things but I have seen significant improvement while I have seen others that do not put in the time and effort basically stall with respect to their advancement. Your not going to show up and do very well "just because" you are special. You need to find a way to practice, dry fire is the best but find some way to do this and get to it.

Go to youtube and search "PSA Shootout". That search will bring up hundreds of videos of this match spanning many years with auto-loaders and revolvers, this is probably the largest annual falling steel match in the country. Spend some time watching those videos. In that match revolvers are in two classes, Open which is optics and 8 shot and Classic with is iron sight and 6 shots. Watch these, you will see some classic revolver shooters hanging with the auto-loaders. Can the 6 shot beat the Auto loaders? In most cases no, but they can put up a good fight. Just because a shooter has a 18 round magazine doesn't mean that he/she has the skills to take advantage of the extra capacity. I have seen more than once where a shooter trying to hit just 5 targets, do a 19 round mag dump and still not hit them all.

It is a combination of the proper equipment, personal training and mental attitude. You never want to loose a match before your first load and make ready.
 
But I'm now going to the great revolver narrative.

You never want to loose a match before your first load and make ready.

Just to clarify: We all lose matches. That's life. But what @thomas15 means is we don't want to do is underperform relative to our potential, especially if it's because we've given ourselves permission to do so before the first LAMR. As I mentioned, this is the danger of The Great Revolver Narrative.

You reported that you had 8 misses in 22-26 targets. That would make a shooter noncompetitive with or without running a revolver in such a falling steel match...Had you simply not missed you would have eliminate 1-2 reloads right there and that would be a huge time bonus

Yep - the First Commandment of running a revolver in competition is "Thy Shalt Not Miss Steel!". As mentioned above, one can do surprising well with a revolver (even against semi-autos), but they've got to execute excellently.

Definitely take time in every practice session to work on your fundamentals (a good DA .22 revolver is a good supplemental tool for this, btw). Work on both slow-fire formal target work on a real bullseye target (avoid any of those ShootNC targets) and getting-your-hits-on-steel accuracy at speed. Dry fire practice is good for both of these. Effective dry fire training is training your mechanics (grip & trigger control), as well as your visual acuity. You need to see what you need to see, and if your eyes and mind aren't picking up necessary visual cues because they're going by too quickly, you're likely just taking pot shots.
 
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I am not sure getting good with what you have is wasted practice. The skills you gain with your current setup will not go away if you change gear and you use that current setup for other things IIRC. There is no harm in improving your equipment, if you enjoy the game get a setup specific for the game but according to your earlier post you have room to improve with your current setup. You reported that you had 8 misses in 22-26 targets. That would make a shooter noncompetitive with or without running a revolver in such a falling steel match. You need to work on your accuracy first and fore most and, assuming its not a gun/ammo issue, you can do a lot to improve just by working on your accuracy. Had you simply not missed you would have eliminate 1-2 reloads right there and that would be a huge time bonus.
Yeah. I'm aware of that. It' not the gun and ammo. I can shoot the same combo into a 2" group at 15 yrds from a bench rest supported position. But I can't do it on the move. I flinch a lot after 20 or so rounds. It's a heavy gun with a lot of muzzle flip.
 
Yeah. I'm aware of that. It' not the gun and ammo. I can shoot the same combo into a 2" group at 15 yrds from a bench rest supported position. But I can't do it on the move. I flinch a lot after 20 or so rounds. It's a heavy gun with a lot of muzzle flip.

Dryfire practice will help with the flinch. Make special lighter recoiling ammo for the competition, go as low as you can go while still making any power factor requirements and maintain the weapon's accuracy. That minor change will help with flinch and endurance. Shooting a lot of heavy recoiling ammo will fatigue your hands/arms faster making your performance degrade quicker in the match and is more likely to cause you to start a new flinch.
 
I flinch a lot after 20 or so rounds. It's a heavy gun with a lot of muzzle flip.

It takes all of us time and training to eliminate flinch and build up the strength to hold the revolver steady over protracted (steel target) runs. Shooting magnum loads is really not gaining you much of anything at this point. Load up light loads, get your gun handling skills up to par. Then on a regular basis do some practice with full power loads but most of your practice and matches use soft shooting loads.

At this point I can shoot a steel match (2 guns at 200 rounds each=400 rounds) over the course of 3-4 hours no problem. This would be shoot 1 stage of 5 strings, 5 rounds per stage = 25 rounds times 8 stages times 2 guns (=+/- 400 rounds). I can do this easy because there are gaps between guns and stages. But 10 minutes of non-stop dry fire and I have to take a rest. It used to be 5 minutes.
 
It strikes me that if your goal is really to get better with your defensive firearms, for the purposes of bear protection, you don't need to compete to do that.

It could be as simple as setting up four to six targets at a 25yd range, all at bear head height, and staggered (left or right of centerline) only enough for a clear shot at each. Start at the furthest, and shoot (DA) each in sequence as quickly as you can hit them. Then reload and begin where you left off til you get the closest one.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I'd always thought when a bear attacks it runs at the person. One moving target coming straight at you, not multiple static ones. Also because it would not likely be at your eye level, you'd have to aim downwards more and more as it got closer, which is fighting the direction the recoil causes the muzzle to move.

Anyway, if you want to compete, then do so. Much advice has been offered and you can take or leave whatever you like. But if your goal really is bear defense, I don't think moonclips are going to help that much. And there are other ways besides competition to practice and improve.
 
And there are other ways besides competition to practice and improve.

I think your point has been made here even by those who advocate competition. I know that I have.

But what do you think? Who do you think, on average, would be better equipped to handle an attack by a wild animal? The individual that visits a range lone wolf and set up targets in various configurations, shoots at them and then goes home. Or the individual that competes on a regular basis, trains for competition, sets up a regular training program, handles his gun several times a week, dry fires several times or more a week, tracks progress by monitoring ranking in matches, works hard to move up in their classification and gets together with other like minded shooters, compares notes and gets into friendly side competitions? I'm taking about the individual that shoots 5-10K or more rounds per year because they compete in matches.

On average....

This is not intended to insult anyone. But who, on average has better gun handling skills? Those that compete or those that don't compete? Are their exceptions? Yes to both. But if talking about "on average", we all know the answer to that question.
 
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I think your point has been made here even by those who advocate competition. I know that I have.

But what do you think? Who do you think, on average, would be better equipped to handle an attack by a wild animal? The individual that visits a range lone wolf and set up targets in various configurations, shoots at them and then goes home. Or the individual that competes on a regular basis, trains for competition, sets up a regular training program, handles his gun several times a week, dry fires several times or more a week, tracks progress by monitoring ranking in matches, works hard to move up in their classification and gets together with other like minded shooters, compares notes and gets into friendly side competitions? I'm taking about the individual that shoots 5-10K or more rounds per year because they compete in matches.

On average....

This is not intended to insult anyone. But who, on average has better gun handling skills? Those that compete or those that don't compete? Are their exceptions? Yes to both. But if talking about "on average", we all know the answer to that question.

That's a good question. And on the surface, I would say with confidence that the guy who shoots competition is going to be of superior ability in such a situation. On average, as you say.

But, when talking specifically about the scenario of a bear attack, I think who has the better chance of emerging success would largely depend on the focus of training undertaken by our 'lone wolf' character.

Is he practicing with the gun and the (I will assume powerful) ammunition he intends to carry in the field? - And therefore dealing with the same POA/POI, and recoil and recovery he'd face in an actual attack. And also in the case of revolvers and reloads, the same length of cartridge in his speedloaders vs the transition from .44 special to the longer .44 magnum.

Is he carrying his gun holstered and accessible in the same way during practice as he would in the field? - If a jacket is working in the field covering the gun, it would be wise to practice dressed as such. If a backpack waist belt is used in the field, how will that effect the draw.

Is he practicing retrieving his reload from where he would keep it during time in the field? - Whilst I think it's unlikely that anyone would get the opportunity to reload during a bear attack, it seems possible that the bear might initially be scared or injured enough to retreat, but then come back to try again. If this is the case, a reload may be possible. And if the gun is not run dry at this point I see an advantage in getting the reload in hand before beginning to open the cylinder, or release the magazine currently in the gun (particularly if the reload is not as easily accessible as it may be in competition). This way the gun would be in a non-firable condition for a shorter period of time, should a "tactical" reload (I understand that's what it's called) be deamed appropriate.

Is he setting up a target scenario to closely mimick the direct nature of a bear charge? - A bear will come from whichever direction the bear is relative to the person's body position. Not likely from a known location. And as I mentioned in a previous post, a bear is likely to attack in a linear fashion and will be lower to the ground than the COM of a human attacker. And it will likely advance incredibly quickly.

Is he practicing his draw and presentation regularly? Is he dry firing his chosen field gun regularly? - These are of course things a competition shooter would do. But if using a heavy DA revolver such as the Redhawk, I've found dry fire to be particularly helpful in gaining and retaining good trigger work when compared to the lighter and shorter triggers on many semi-autos.

If our lone wolf is doing these things, and so practicing for the particular scenario of a bear attack, I'd say he's more likely than the competition shooter to be able to successfully deal with the threat. Not only is he practicing for the specific type of threat, he's practicing with the gun and load he will use in the same manner in which he will carry it. And that gun and load are likely more powerful a combination than the competition shooter.

Now, whether or not an individual is likely to practice like this alone, is another question entirely. And do I think that absent that focused practice, competition is a very good option to improve skills? Yes, I do. But when DB began talking about maybe selling his Redhawk and changing guns, and has seemed so focused in where he is ranking in these competitions; I thought it might be worth bringing up his original motivation for beginning to compete in the first place. And suggest that, yes, there are other option to achieve his original goal. However, I can see merit in continuing to compete with a similar but more manageable revolver (such as the GP100), as this could well drive improvements that would fairly easily cross over to the .44 magnum Redhawk he has wished to carry for bear defense.

So I understand your point, Thomas, and I don't disagree with you at all. Competition makes us better. But in my opinion, there are other variables to consider, and other ways to achieve DB's primary goal that could perhaps be more beneficial to him (though he will have to decide that for himself).
 
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