Speed Reloads & Cylinder Machining

[D.B. Cooper]

I'm shooting a Ruger Redhwk with 44 special handloads in a handgun steel target league at my local club. I just finished my third season, about to start my fourth. The autoloader guys are killing me. (I finished 63rd out of 65 this time around.) While I get some compliments on how well and how fast I reload (I'm using HKS 29M speedloaders), I'm looking for ways to improve.

I'm losing about 10 seconds every time I reload. The more I miss, the more I have to reload. The only other revolver guy shoots a S&W in 40SW using moon clips. We've all seen Miculek's amazing performance with moon clips. I'm wondering if I should move in that direction.

I know I'd have to have my cylinder machined to take moon clips. If I go down that route, will I retain the ability to load, shoot, and eject normally, without moon clips? (Or does it become something like an M1917 revolver where you almost HAVE to have the clips?)

As I see it, the two places with the greatest room for improvement are miss less (= reload less) and cut my reload time. I'm already shooting about 100 rounds per week in practice, but I'm not seeing any improvement in accuracy.) Second to that would be quicker draw times, but I'm afraid to start doing "quick draw" for safety's sake. - I'm drawing from an OWB kydex holster.) I thought about porting the barrel, but, with my reloads, I'm not seeing that much recoil, so I skipped it.

Ultimately, this gun's primary function is bear defense up here in Alaska, so I don't want to do anything that would inhibit reliability or reduce options in the field.

 

[98Redline]

Before I jumped in with getting the cylinder cut for moon clips I think I would change my speed loader. The Safariland Comp I loaders are a better design for faster loading. Essentially they pop the shells free when the loader hits the back of the cylinder. No messing around with that damn knob to set the shells free.

Now the important stuff:

If you speed up your draw, maybe you will shave 1 second off of your time. If you get your accuracy up and reduce your reloads by even 1, by your estimation that is 10 seconds. That is the low hanging fruit., concentrate on that.
Fewer misses = fewer shots = fewer reloads = faster times.

When I was shooting IPSC one of the guys who mentored me always said "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast".
If you get too hung up on going fast, you start jerking the gun from plate to plate and jerking the trigger. Both of those things lead to misses.

Slow down, concentrate on moving from target to target smoothly. Concentrate on making a nice smooth trigger pull and connecting with the plate.
Keep doing that in practice. Don't try to go fast, just be as smooth as you can. The more you do that and the more comfortable you become with that the faster you will become as a byproduct.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know if you should, but you can. And still shoot loose rounds.
http://pinnaclehighperformance.com/cylinder-work/

I don't see where he lists the clips, but they are $7 each from TK and you have to stick to one brand of brass.

 

[jar]

If you do decide on moon clips invest in the TK loader/unloader. Your fingers will thank you.

AbE: Also, I have always preferred the HKS speed loaders for carry since I find them more secure than the Safariland and just the opposite when talking competition.

That is one really low hanging fruit to consider before considering making irreversible milling changes to a cylinder. I'm a firm believer that if I ever intend to use a gun for self-defense I keep it as close to stock as possible and make only reversible changes that have sure reliability advantages.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

Machining a revolver cylinder chambered in a rimmed cartridge like .44 Mag will still let you use the gun as normal, you can always buy an extra cylinder if you change your mind. If you do go that route make sure the Smith is reputable and not Joe Bubba Smith out of the garage. I would go further and advise you to use moon clips with .44 Russian loads even a smaller case length than the special than your cooking with grease so to speak.

 

[WrongHanded]

I know that the HKS .44 speedloaders yourey using are looser than those for .357. I have both and certainly notice those for my Redhawk are harder to use quickly. But 10 seconds per reload seems like a lot. Do you practice with snap caps much? If not, you might try that too.

 

[mcb]

My rambling take...

Safariland Comp I speedloaders will be some what faster and less fumble prone than the HKS twist to unlock style speedloaders. The Comp I's are very cheap (<$10 on Amazon) and might be worth a try; certainly the cheapest and easiest upgrade that will help your game.

You can certainly have someone like TK Custom machines your cylinder for moonclips. As mentioned by The Evangelist Cowboy a revolver chambered in a rimmed cartridges when machined (correctly) for moonclips retains the ability to fire without the moonclip. They leave a raised rim around the outside of the cylinder so that in the absence of the moonclip the cartridges still head-spaces normally. No reliability will be loss.


My S&W 627 in 357 Mag loaded without a moonclip.

But if you want the fastest, most robust and fumble free reloading revolver going it has to be the S&W 625. Short, fat, round-nose, 45 ACP cartridges on thick robust moonclips. If you're a die hard Ruger fan the 45 ACP/45 Colt Redhawk would probably be just as good if a bit bulkier/heavier.

Revolvers chambered in rimless cartridges use thicker moonclips and they are much more robust and less finicky about the particular brass you use. The moonclips for rimless cartridges are typically .035-.040 inch thick. In addition the extractor grove that the moonclip snaps into on rimless cartridges is part of the SAAMI cartridge specification, so just about all the brass for a particular cartridge will have the same extractor groove dimensions (within SAAMI tolerances).

The moonclips for rimmed cartridges are typically only .020 - .025 inches thick. On a rimmed cartridge the groove at the front of the rim that the moonclip snaps into is not part of the SAAMI specification for the cartridge. In fact that groove is not even required and you do occasionally find cartridges without it. (it is an artifact of the manufacturing process as an easy way to get rid of the fillet where the rim and cartridge wall meets and it was easier to over-cut that leaving a groove, it later also became the moonclip groove) Because there is no industry-wide spec for this groove you run into issues with getting a good pairing of brass and moonclip. This is a particular nightmare for 38/357. As an example TK Custom offers something like 6-different moonclip sizes for the S&W 627 due to this brass variability issue but basically only offers one size for the S&W 625 (45ACP) or the S&W 610 (10/40).


HKS speedload in a S&W Model 10, then a Safariland CompIII in the S&W Model 10, then a moonclip in a S&W 625.

And no matter if you pick speed-loaders, or moonclips it's all about putting in the practice. Reloading a revolver fast is never going to be as easy or fast as it can be with a magazine feed bottom feeder. The noble round gun exacts a high price in practice time if your going to make it look fast and easy.

 

[MrBorland]

I'm losing about 10 seconds every time I reload...The only other revolver guy shoots a S&W in 40SW using moon clips. We've all seen Miculek's amazing performance with moon clips. I'm wondering if I should move in that direction.

10 seconds is a bunch. Too much to be explained by your gear, IMO. Yes, HKS speed loaders are relatively slow, but if you're losing 10 seconds per reload, your main problem isn't gear, but technique, and likely, to be blunt, lack of quality instruction and/or practice. Moonclips ain't gonna help you much until you get the fundamentals of a revolver reload down pat.

In a match situation, an experienced revolver shooter using HKS speed loaders should be executing 4-ish-second reloads, and getting good hits immediately before and after. Swapping those HKS's out for competition speed loader ought to buy that shooter another 0.5-0.75 second. Moons with a revolver cartridge, will buy a wee bit more, and moons with a short fat semi-auto cartridge even a wee bit more. But none of these will amount to much of anything if reload techniques aren't solid to begin with.

In summary, then, neither speedloaders and moonclips are fast. Their users are fast…or slow…but it depends on how much quality practice is put in. You can bet Miculek has a metric ton of practice, and that's why he's fast.

 

[Boarhunter]

Cooper,

With your current gun and gear, it does not sound to me like you are in it for the "game." If you were, you would ditch the gun and start over with an auto loader...I would think.

If so, I would keep the gun "as is" and simply work on practical technique while shooting steel and not worry whether you rank 60th or 63rd or dead last.

What is important is that you can beat a bear....

I "compete" in practical practices all the time ith a revolver, because that is what I carry, not because a revolver is the most competitive gun available.

BOARHUNTER

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I'm going to respond to several comments right here, without quoting/referencing. (It's late and I have an early alarm clock.)

10 seconds is a guesstimate; I don't have a shot timer, nor an i-device to use one of the apps. Perhaps it's time to buy one or the other.

"The game" isn't the end-all, be-all. I started doing this just to get proficient, found out I liked, and am now trying to be at least somewhat competitive. True, if I was serious about winning, I'd go buy a 9mm. (An option that's not "off the table.")

I made the (possibly bad) decision to go with the HKS loaders at the beginning because they hold the rounds better in a pack or pocket. "Train with what you carry" right? My concern is if I start competing with Safarilands, when I go to use them in the field, they'll drop all of the rounds while in my pocket so that when I go to reload, I'll have an empty loader and 6 loose cartridges in my pocket.

Mr. Borland is right; I haven't had any instruction or training. I watched the Massad Ayoob stress reload video and just started doing it. I've been practicing/competing about 9 months with that method now. But all based on what's on the youtube video. I do practice with snap caps (I have 12), but I took a break over summer.

I totally agree I need to miss less. But it seems like I'm at a plateau on marksmanship with this gun. I shoot the dot torture drill weekly, but never seem to improve.

I've never heard of shooting 44 Russian in a 44 Spl/Mag gun. (But at this point, I have about 1000 pieces of 44 Spl brass, so not sure I change now.

Thanks guys

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

I'm going to respond to several comments right here, without quoting/referencing. (It's late and I have an early alarm clock.)

10 seconds is a guesstimate; I don't have a shot timer, nor an i-device to use one of the apps. Perhaps it's time to buy one or the other.

"The game" isn't the end-all, be-all. I started doing this just to get proficient, found out I liked, and am now trying to be at least somewhat competitive. True, if I was serious about winning, I'd go buy a 9mm. (An option that's not "off the table.")

I made the (possibly bad) decision to go with the HKS loaders at the beginning because they hold the rounds better in a pack or pocket. "Train with what you carry" right? My concern is if I start competing with Safarilands, when I go to use them in the field, they'll drop all of the rounds while in my pocket so that when I go to reload, I'll have an empty loader and 6 loose cartridges in my pocket.

Mr. Borland is right; I haven't had any instruction or training. I watched the Massad Ayoob stress reload video and just started doing it. I've been practicing/competing about 9 months with that method now. But all based on what's on the youtube video. I do practice with snap caps (I have 12), but I took a break over summer.

I totally agree I need to miss less. But it seems like I'm at a plateau on marksmanship with this gun. I shoot the dot torture drill weekly, but never seem to improve.

I've never heard of shooting 44 Russian in a 44 Spl/Mag gun. (But at this point, I have about 1000 pieces of 44 Spl brass, so not sure I change now.

Thanks guys

.44 special evolved from the Russian, it's the great grandfather of the magnum, if you ever get the chance to do it Id highly recommend it .

 

[mcb]

The Safariland speedloaders in general are remarkably robust despite their low cost. I have been beating the heck out of 5 Comp III's in my IDPA rig for my Model 10, then get jammed in the gun then dropped to the ground on every reload during the matches. I have been carrying two of the Comp I's for my 44 Mag Model 29 this summer (my only N-frame not cut for moonclips) in a simple cloth belt pouch (not much protection for them) and have not had any issue with them malfunctioning as I get in and out of UTVs and the tractor working around the hunting property. I would not be afraid to carry Comp I's in bear country.

As for improving you shooting, start doing dry fire practice. I assume your shooting double action. Look up some good techniques for shooting double action and then practice them with dry fire practice (Snap caps in a safe location, hide all the ammo, have a safe direction to point your gun. I like the poured concrete wall in my gun/reloading room in the basement.) Start slow getting the technique committed to muscle memory and then start doing it faster and faster until something crashes and burns. Back off, get it going right again, and then start ramping the speed up again. Rinse and repeat. Dry fire practice is probably the biggest single thing you can do to improve your handgun shooting. It will build muscle strength (important for double action shooting), muscle memory, proper sight aliment and will address any flinch problem you might have.

 

[jmorris]

Moon clips not only benefit loading but also unloading, not to mention you only have to pick up one clip vs digging for all 6 cases.

My method for loading a moon clip gun is more like throwing the rounds in the cylinder than “inserting” them.

The comp III is what I use if I am not using moon clips and they beat the HKS. As above I think having the rounds find their way in is better than putting them in and that doesn’t happen while your holding onto a knurled handle that you have to preform another action on once they are in the cylinder.

 

[Zendude]

Is shooting the first round in single action allowed? Maybe cocking the hammer during the draw will lead to fewer misses.

 

[MrBorland]

On the .44 Russians...I'd use them only with moonclips (and if I could safely make any required power factor with them), where the smaller the sectional density of the case, the better. With speedloaders, I'd stick with the specials: When a speedloader brings the fresh rounds to the face of the cylinder, the base of the rounds, held within the body of the speedloader, are kept some distance from the cylinder. The bullets themselves index into the charge holes and guide the rest of the round into the cylinder. A long (e.g. magnum) case is longer than needed, and can impede reload speeds, but as the cases get shorter, less of the bullet is available to index into the cylinder and guide the round. At some point, little, if any of the bullet is in contact with the cylinder, and really bad things can happen when the rounds are released. Whether at a match, or in more serious situations, your reloads have to be 100% reliable. IME, "special" cases are just about the right balance for speedloaders.

On improving your reloads...it'd be best to get personal instruction from a good revolver shooter. Barring that, watching good videos is the next best - unfortunately, there aren't very many good ones. For competition, btw, also look into the FBI reload. And skip the Miculek videos - not taking anything away from his skill, but his vids exist to display his skill, not to teach. After watching a good video, the next is to practice your butt off. Definitely through a ton of dry fire, but you need to incorporate live fire as well. Practice is key. And it'll take a lot of quality practice to gain proficiency. How proficient you want to get is up to you. I think with some good quality practice, you can get into the 4-5 second range in dry fire. In a match situation, that'd likely be at the higher end, but it'd definitely be an improvement. By way of comparison, master-level revolver shooters using competition speedloaders can reload in dry fire in 2.5-ish seconds, and right around 3.0 in actual match conditions, with good hits before and after. Getting to that point will take much more practice.

A couple other thing about practicing your reloads...first, I'd avoid using a par timer, at least at first. You'll likely just set some arbitrary par time, then rush and fumble in an attempt to beat the clock. Practicing sloppy reloads is simply getting good at sloppy reloads. Instead of a timer, I'd recommend a metronome. Yes, a metronome. Buy one or use the one I hyper-linked to. An ideal and well-executed reload isn't herky-jerky and would instead look like it's being done to a metronome, so, not coincidentally, a metronome is an excellent training tool for dry fire practice of your reloads. Just break the reload down into steps, and practice each step, setting the metronome to a very do-able speed. Start putting the pieces together, and increasing the speed. At some point, you want to push your speed, but get the basics down rock solid first.

Also, ditch the snap caps. They're too light to really work well for speedloader-fed reloads, and they don't replicate the real thing. You have cases, so I assume you reload, so make some clearly-marked dummy round comprised of a case and a bullet with round nose. And speaking of round noses, they're really the only choice when it comes to fast reloads in a match situation.

Finally, during your dry fire practice, be sure to pre-load your cylinder with empty cases to eject. If you don't, you can easily get in the habit of a wimpy ejection stroke, which will certainly bite you in live-fire/match situations.

You mentioned you need to work on your marksmanship. Yes, if you're going to shoot a revolver in any kind of match, especially if you're up against semi-autos, your marksmanship needs to be up to snuff. You can't afford to be throwing shots away, and putting yourself into a situation where you need extra reloads. Every shot has to count, including the shots immediately before and after a reload (your reload is really only as good as those shots). Going even further, if you're going to shoot a revolver in competition and against semi-autos, all aspects of your shooting have to be rock-solid if you want to do well. It's one of the reasons why I enjoyed shooting a revolver in competition, and love watching other good wheelgunners. I wrote a piece on this at one point, but can't find it. Bummer. The gist of it is, whether you want to win or simply do your best, you don't necessarily need to pull the trigger the fastest, but you do need to execute everything well, get your hits, avoid unforced errors, and importantly, avoid The Great Revolver Narrative. TGRN hold that everything is oh so difficult with a revolver, that semi-auto shooters have such an advantage over me, blah blah blah. Unfortunately, most wheelgunners love and embrace The Narrative, but in doing so, put artificial limits on themselves, and give themselves permission to underperform before they even get to the firing line. So...avoid TGRN, accept that your weapon is simply your weapon, and make it a goal to do your very best with it. You might be surprised at how well a proficient wheelgunner (and I'm not even talking about Miculek-proficient) can do against semi-autos in local matches

 

[straightshooterjake]

I totally agree I need to miss less. But it seems like I'm at a plateau on marksmanship with this gun. I shoot the dot torture drill weekly, but never seem to improve.

If your marksmanship has plateaued, then breaking that plateau is a key area toward improvement. Breaking through athletic plateaus is an area where good coaches or instructors really prove their worth. A good coach will identify the weak points and have strategies to improve them. It is certainly possible to work through the plateaus on your own, but it will require determination, experimentation, and a willingness to do things that are hard on your ego.

If you don't have anyone good to work with, then there is lots of good stuff on the internet and youtube, but it is mixed with lots of convincing but wrong stuff. If you spend a bunch of time investigating online, eventually some sensible, and mostly correct, patterns emerge.

Here is a long thread with a lot of good info about improving competition performance.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/most-accurate-again-in-idpa-help-me-speed-up.824618/

This thread does not have any revolver specific stuff, but it has a lot of general good advice about improving performance.

 

[jmorris]

Is shooting the first round in single action allowed? Maybe cocking the hammer during the draw will lead to fewer misses.

It is allowed but I don't know anyone that does, you want them to all be the same.

 

[jmorris]

You don't have to pay for classes to become an alright shooter. A shot timer and practice is all I used and placed 1st MA ESR at Nationals in '09, even beat Jerry Miculek (DC) on a couple stages.

 

[MrBorland]

You don't have to pay for classes to become an alright shooter

Quality instruction may not be necessary, but it sure helps, is a real time saver and keeps one from developing bad habits that'll take time to eventually undo. You might not have to take formal classes, either - likely there's a good shooter (even a semi-auto shooter) who'd be willing & able to spend a little time with you after the match.

As I see it, the two places with the greatest room for improvement are miss less (= reload less) and cut my reload time. I'm already shooting about 100 rounds per week in practice, but I'm not seeing any improvement in accuracy.)

Regarding accuracy, shooting nice small tight groups at your own pace on a single target is great, and something I incorporated into my practice sessions...but it's definitely not the same as fast hits on multiple targets. I don't know how you're shooting those 100 rounds, but to be good at the latter, you have to practice the latter. There are numerous dry fire drills to help here as well.

Also, recoil's not the same, but a lot can be done with a .22 as an understudy, if shooting volumes of .44 special is an issue. Draw-to-first shot, transitions, movement, trigger control, seeing what you need to see when things speed up are all things that can be practiced with a .22.

The thread posted by @straightshooterjake has a lot of good info. Also check out the "Forgotten Revolver Tips and Tricks" thread for a few nuggets:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/forgotten-revolver-tips-and-tricks.708393/

 

[jmorris]

Quality instruction may not be necessary, but it sure helps, is a real time saver and keeps one from developing bad habits that'll take time to eventually undo.

Maybe, maybe not, I have taken classes from professional shooters/instructors in the past, none revolver specific though, if you pay attention you can find nuggets of information, I have seen lots of folks that just blew money though.

Experience and evaluation is where I found the most gain, if you picked that up from a paid class, that would be a good one.

One can get a shot timer with par time function and during teardown get all the targets they need to practice with and have a great start for evaluation of what is the most efficient use of time.

Most everyone can pull the trigger around the same speed, so that shouldn’t be the focus. Going from a .2 split to a .1, isn’t going to take you from mid pac to top 5.

Reloads can be all over the place for revos as well as accuracy so that’s a good place to focus on, not as much semiauto’s though (hard to make them as bad as a fumbled revo reload).

Movement throughout a stage is where I always made up the ground. If you are not shooting you should be doing everything you can to get you shooting again and if you can do two things at once, you should or you are wasting time.

Other than that it is “programming” every stage to the point you are on “autopilot”. Lots of new shooters “figure things out” as they are shooting a stage, like a kid learning tic-tac-toe, and spend a lot of time making incorrect choices. It’s a LOT better to plan the stage ahead of time as well as contingency’s so everything is “fluid”.

One last thing, if you are the guy that the best laid plans go out the window when the buzzer goes off, start going first on every stage at club matches until that feeling goes away. Most of this stuff is mental management and you have to have your head right. Get a copy of “With winning in mind” and read it a time or two.

 

[HB]

Revolvers are the best for practing dry fire and reloads. Auto pistols can be “shot” to slide lock in your basement.

Practice dry firing extensively at a blank wall until your front sight doesnt move.

The practice reloading with dummies over and over and over.

Then combine them with transitioning targets. All can be done at home for free!!

Also use RN or pointed bullets. Could also be you might not shoot revolvers well but you should able to learn. Use a very high hold.

I can’t post a vid but i played with a smith 66 for a spring for uspsa and idpa outlaw. Shoot A zone with a deliberate cadance and plan plan plan your reloads.

 

[Shimitup]

Have you taken the sharp edges off of the charge holes, All of my Rugers had razor edges that bite the bullet and case and hang things up. I took a cratex tip and beveled it to 45 degree angle and touched it around the perimeter of each hole for no more than just a few seconds just enough to see a barely visible polished ring. I'm not talking about measurably radiusing the edge although some do, I don't see the need, just breaking the edge makes a world of difference. BTW I have HKS speed loaders and without practice I can reload in around 2 sec.

 

[donkee]

When you reload do you keep the revolver in the strong hand while shoving in the rounds with the weak hand like shown in first video posted by mcb above? If so that will slow you down, a lot.

 

[bullseye308]

Have someone video you shooting so that you can go back and slo-mo it and see where you are having difficulties. Be hard on yourself and completely honest about it. Show the video to other competitors and see what they might offer to help.

 

[Tallball]

I am not any kind of expert. In fact, I'm a pretty mediocre shot.

FWIW, though, I agree with one of the other posters. My S&W Model 625 is very accurate, and reloading it with 45acp moon clips is very fast.