"Stand Your Ground" Offense?

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Fred Fuller

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I found this column by way of a post on attorney David Hardy's blog, Of Arms And The Law (http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2012/04/article_bemoans.php). It brings up several points we have addressed here fairly regularly in the past, and I think demonstrates the need to keep revisiting those issues as time and the debate over legitimate self defense wears on.

First of all, the item itself can be seen at http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2012/04/stand-your-ground_shootings_se.php. It's titled "Stand-Your-Ground Shootings: Seattle-Area Gunners Cheer Four Deaths in Four Months."

Writer Rick Anderson discloses his apparent bias and lack of real world education or experience on the subject by such statements as this one: Could the North Bend homeowner at least have tried to wound Henderson rather than kill him? Despite this, we can glean some useful insight from examining the article.

Among the several points to address here: first of all, though it should be obvious to any regular contributor here, the use of lethal force should be considered a last resort, and not an option to be deliberately sought out whenever opportunity arises. It's apparent from some cases that come up from time to time that self defense is claimed as an excuse or justification by a few actors who engaged in some level of criminal activity in the shootings in which they were involved. I quote from the article again:

Nor do armed homeowners always act within the law. Snohomish County prosecutors said in January said that the 2011 shooting death of Dylan T. Jones, 23, by an Everett homeowner could have been avoided, and that the shooter didn't need to use fatal force to prevent Jones from taking a boat from his property. But they lacked enough evidence to prove the homeowner committed a crime.

As well, this month a Marysville man who shot at two teen boys who'd triggered a motion detector as they walked by his home was himself arrested. The Associated Press reports that Kenneth Aubry told police he'd recently been burglarized and thought his car was being prowled, so he fired two shots in the dark. Charged with assault, Aubry has pleaded not guilty.

And sometimes when a homeowner shoots an intruder, it's murder. Last July, Keira Earhart, 39, of Arlington, was convicted of killing Ryan Rzechula, 25, who broke into Earhart's home. Essentially, Earhart hunted down Rzechula, shooting him in the back three hours after the break-in about a quarter-mile away.

It took two trials, but jurors convicted Earhart of second-degree murder. He was sentenced to 12 years in prison.

As in all these cases, they are tragedies, or near-tragedies, of the intruders' making. But homeowners are not automatically without fault. As deputy Snohomish County prosecutor Mara Rozzano said after the Earhart trial, "This is a tragedy of Mr. Earhart's making. He elected to pull the trigger."


None of this says that legitimate self defense is wrong, of course. But, as we know, criminals often claim self defense as a justification of their own acts that lead to someone else being seriously injured or killed as a result. It is therefore up to each of us to be mindful of what we are doing, even under severe stress, and to always do the best we can to leave no doubt that our use of force was completely legitimate and unavoidable. It's a near certainty that all our actions leading up to any use of deadly force will be scrutinized extensively by law enforcement and may well be subjected to further scrutiny later by the justice system as well.

Anderson also says, Apparently there is bad gun violence and good gun violence. Well, duh. OBVIOUSLY there is. Even so, discussion of legitimate self defense is too often mischaracterized (as in this article's headline) as 'cheering' the deaths of other human beings. The attitudes and comments of a certain number of self defense proponents in this regard are indeed sometimes over the top. None of us take joy in seeing another person hurt or killed, but it is still a more appropriate outcome to see a would-be assailant thwarted in the conduct of whatever nefarious intent, than to see him succeed and thereby victimize yet another innocent.

And the idea that the recent accidental shooting deaths of several children were balanced out by the increased body count of home intruders is nothing short of ridiculous. Tragedies are tragedies, and there is no way to 'balance' tragedies in the larger world. It's a sad fact that some percentage of people will be careless with their firearms, as they are with their automobiles, lawn mowers, home appliances, or even their keyboards, and that tragedy will result in some cases. The only proper response is to strive to do better, to learn from the mistakes of others and not to repeat them. Accidents do indeed happen, rarely, but lack of deliberate intent to cause harm combined with unsafe behavior cannot be easily dismissed as 'accident' when it results in tragedy. Acting in a responsible fashion to avoid further tragedy is the only proper response to tragedy that has already occurred IMHO.

It's a good thing for each of us to be mindful on a daily basis that we are representatives of a larger community. That's one of the main reasons THR is here, to foster and encourage that sense of community among members as well as the larger group of firearms owners who are not members here.

I often sign off here with the admonition to "Stay Safe." It's not done lightly...
 
the shooter didn't need to use fatal force to prevent Jones from taking a boat from his property. But they lacked enough evidence to prove the homeowner committed a crime.
So, they're either saying that shooting to retain a boat "when you don't need to" isn't illegal there, or they don't have proof he actually fired to retain property?

Either way (if what he did wasn't a crime, or they don't have the evidence that he committed a crime), they still get to say he committed a crime? Must be that old "presumed guilty" thing.
It took two trials, but jurors convicted Earhart of second-degree murder. He was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
Sounds like when you do have the evidence that someone committed a crime, he goes to jail.

What was the problem again? :confused:
the use of lethal force should be considered a last resort, and not an option to be deliberately sought out whenever opportunity arises.
I agree completely.
 
I always thought when an uninvited intruder enters your home unannounced that it is presumed that your life is in danger and that would typically allow you to use deadly force in response.

One recent case has me puzzled. It involved a robery of a pharmacy and the intruder was shot by the owner of the business a few times resulting in his death. Apparently, the owner was convicted of murder, however, in part, as a result of using more than one shot.

This seems to conflict with what is being taught in CC classes where you are told to keep shooting until your attacker is no longer a threat.

I hope this doesn't turn into one of those Zimmerman-related threads asking, "[B]When can I blast em?"[/B]
 
One recent case has me puzzled. It involved a robery of a pharmacy and the intruder was shot by the owner of the business a few times resulting in his death. Apparently, the owner was convicted of murder, however, in part, as a result of using more than one shot.

Ersland shot and killed a perp that he had previously wounded and who was incapacitated. Ersland also lied to the police.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20066839-504083.html
 
rajb123,

That was the Jerome Ersland case in Oklahoma City - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=594815 . In short, Ersland disabled one of his attackers with his first shots, chased the other out of the pharmacy down the street, returned to the pharmacy, recovered another pistol, and shot the first assailant who was still lying on the floor several more times.

Thus the murder conviction. There is no contradiction in what you were taught, as far as I can see.

One of the purposes of this thread is to discourage the "When can I blast em?" approach and instead substitute the 'no other option' approach.
 
If I was a juror on the Ersland case, I may have had some diffuculty with thier finding.

I think of SYG as applying mostly in situations outside the home or business. Is this true in practice?

Why do the media think SYG is a gun law? I'm sick of reading articles about the Florida government re-thinking their gun laws as a result of the Zimmerman case. Apparently there is a commission that will study the impact of SYG but it presumably would not reconsider Florida's gun laws; right?
 
Fred Fuller wrote:
None of us take joy in seeing another person hurt or killed

Granted none of us should. But numerous comments on this and other forums suggest that all too many do.

Firstly, I support the Castle Doctrine, and armed self defense. The Second Amendment was written at a time when the several states were sovereign and depended upon an armed citizenry--the militia--for military defense and civil law enforcement. Since that time, the states have lost much of their sovereignty and the militia has been divested of both military and civil law enforcement responsibility. The only rights remaining to be served by a right to keep and bear arms is resistance to a tyrannical government and self defense. Not community defense, that is the responsibility of the police. If the police presence is inadequate, that is a problem for the community to address. The problem of the individual is to defend self, home and family.

Such self defense may be necessary outside of the home and in these circumstances, Stand Your Ground laws apply. But I think that too many read "Stand Your Ground" and think "must not retreat." Retreat is no alway possible but it should always be the first consideration.
 
If I was a juror on the Ersland case, I may have had some diffuculty with thier finding.
Can't see why. The situation had de-escalated and the use of force was no longer necessary, thus the continued use of force was a crime.

I think of SYG as applying mostly in situations outside the home or business. Is this true in practice?
If I remember it correctly "stand your ground" is basically castle doctrine that applies everywhere instead of just a person's home. Not entirely sure though.

Why do the media think SYG is a gun law?
Because it concerns the use of force, which many people associate with the use of firearms. That and many people in the media are pushing an agenda and don't care if facts get in the way.
 
Posted by rajb123: I always thought when an uninvited intruder enters your home unannounced that it is presumed that your life is in danger and that would typically allow you to use deadly force in response.
First, and this may appear rather unimportant, the law does not "allow" one to use deadly force; rather, the law defines conditions under which the intentional use of deadly force, generally a crime, may be justified, if sufficient evidence is provided.

Castle doctrine laws really have to do with the burden of evidence that must be presented in the defense of justification. They generally establish that the fact of the break in can be presumed to constitute evidence of imminent danger.

These laws vary among jurisdictions. In some states, the entry must be made with force. In some others, the defender must believe that the entry was made with the intent to commit some other serious crime.

Second, any such presumption is rebuttable.
 
So, they're either saying that shooting to retain a boat "when you don't need to" isn't illegal there, or they don't have proof he actually fired to retain property?

I imagine it is illegal there. However, it's probably not illegal to confront someone who is trying to steal a boat, then shoot once threatened by the person confronted. Tactically wise? Perhaps not, but generally legal, and may have been the shooter's defense.
 
I saw the Ersland tape. What it looked like to me was a coup-de-grace of a prisoner. Apparently the sum total of the evidence presented to the jury led them to the murder conviction, although murder 1 seemed rediculous. Given the passions of the moment, I would suspect the jury would have gone for manslaughter.

Point being: you generally have the right to use deadly force until the perp is no longer a danger a/o is physically not capable of continuing the attach. At that point your right to shoot stops and you had better back off. If not, there is a likelyhood that the law will see it as a revenge killing.
Tune out all the cowboy and war movies. You are not on a seek and destroy mission, you are on a self defense mission.
 
One way to think about it - when the threat is over, the justification for use of force is over as well. When there is no justification, any use of force is therefore not justified - in other words, criminal. In Ersland's case, the threat was clearly over. Yet Ersland continued to apply deadly force - repeatedly.

Ersland should never have left the premises, he had employees still in the building and they should have been his primary concern. He should have interposed himself between those employees and Parker (the downed robber in the store) and waited for LE to arrive.

And he ignored potential threats outside the building, both on leaving and re-entering, when he chased the other robber - the one with the gun - out the door (that blue car with sumdood standing behind the open trunk). Yes, I know - easy for me to Monday morning quarterback after the fact, but that's why we do this stuff here.

News coverage of the Ersland case continues at http://newsok.com/pharmacyshootings . Ersland is still serving a life sentence, though he is working on an appeal.
 
The Ersland case was justifiable shooting first time around, absolute murder the second time he shot the kid lying incapacitated on the floor. Initially, before I had seen all of the evidence, well, what we were able to see on the internet, I was in his corner, but later, it is clearly the right finding by the jury.

You can't shoot someone once the threat is over and done. That includes shooting fleeing suspect in most instance UNLESS he is shooting back at you as he runs away. Very important to understand SHOOT/DON'T SHOOT drills that many CCW classes engage during training. That goes with immediacy of the threat and under the gravest extreme as Mas Ayoob teaches.

Ersland very clearly violated the fundamental aspects of self defense and ventured directly into murder. Sadly, it does appear that he got the right conviction and if I was on the jury, I believe that is how I would have voted as well. The Ersland case is not even a fine line, he was definitely over the line.
 
The discussion over the SYG laws is a needed one. If recent events did not convince a person of this reading the discussions on this and other gun forums should do so.

There is serious opposition to SYG laws or portions of some of those laws because a good many see the laws as either pro-vigilante action laws or laws which encourage vigilantism by allowing it. If folks do not know the difference between the legitimate use of deadly force and and the illegitimate use of it the issues can be blurred. If bodies result from the blurring a debate will take place and is now.

This sets aside the instances where vigilante or illegal acts are the objective and SYG can be used as an excuse. Some District Attorneys in Florida have decried the use of SYG by known drug dealers to defend their actions in shootings.

SYG laws do not allow a fella to make a "citizens arrest" of a person or people they believe are involved in a crime and then shoot them if they "resist arrest".

tipoc
 
SYG laws do not allow a fella to make a "citizens arrest" of a person or people they believe are involved in a crime and then shoot them if they "resist arrest".

One thing for certain is that they shouldn't allow that, but some statutes are written so as to lend themselves to that interpretation, especially by persons with inadequate understanding of how the law is constructed. They find one section which seems clear but do not find other sections which create exceptions or which show that the section they did read was itself a special case exception. Then they go away thinking that a section has general application when it is in fact really very limited.

And when such misinterpretation supports a political agenda, there is strong resistance to correction.
 
Quote:
SYG laws do not allow a fella to make a "citizens arrest" of a person or people they believe are involved in a crime and then shoot them if they "resist arrest".

One thing for certain is that they shouldn't allow that, but some statutes are written so as to lend themselves to that interpretation, especially by persons with inadequate understanding of how the law is constructed.

What statutes imply one can use deadly force to peform a citizen's arrest if the detained resists? The citizen's arrest statues of our state are certainly not detailed but nothing suggested lethal force is allowed.
 
What statutes imply one can use deadly force to peform [sic] a citizen's arrest if the detained resists?

Possibly all of them. A misreading of the statutes or failure to consider all of the statutes that might apply to a given situation might lead some to that conclusion. Especially if the resistance causes the citizen to fear for their life.

The law exists as a whole and must be read as a whole. You can't pick and choose which parts you want to apply. But many people do it every day and we see it in discussions on this forum.

I think you will find that Texas law allows a peace officer to use whatever level of force is necessary to effect an arrest. Force, not deadly force. But a misreading of the statute might lead a citizen to believe that the statute justified the use of deadly force by a citizen if that was the level necessary to effect the arrest.

Texas law also allows one to resist an improper arrest unless the arrest is being made by a peace officer or someone acting at the direction of a peace officer. A simple reading of these statutes could lead one to the conclusion that while a citizen may make an arrest, a citizen may resist one that is not being effected by a peace officer. In such a situation, how high might the force level escalate? Could either party become fearful of imminent death or serious injury? Which one would be justified to use lethal force in self defense?
 
What statutes imply one can use deadly force to peform [sic] a citizen's arrest if the detained resists?

In another thread on this forum there is a discussion of a recent situation in Georgia where a father and son held a couple at gunpoint, in effect threatening their lives and "arresting" them till the cops arrived. The couple had gone to change the locks on a home their son had just purchased. The neighbors saw them, assumed the worst and snuck up on them armed with ARs. Had a wrong move been made the results could have been tragic.

Interestingly, at first the police arrested the couple and congratulated the father and son. Only after a fuss was raised were the father and son arrested. This points to a related problem, the approval of local authorities of some vigilante type actions and refusal to enforce the laws adequately or impartially in some cases. We have been losing the right to a jury trial in practice over the last decade or so. Other rights can be eroded as well.

tipoc
 
What's the difference. The point is not to establish bravery. The point is to get home safely. If you're killed or grievously wounded, you've lost. If you do the wrong thing and end up in jail,you've lost.
 
What are you if you do the right thing and end up in jail, or run away a coward and find it hard to live with yourself afterwards? I guess the possibilities are endless..........
 
Getting pretty far afield here, it seems...

Hint: In ST&T, if you haven't read the WHOLE THREAD - don't post...
 
Read the articles. "Stand your ground" is the new rallying point for anti-gunners.

Home invasion, independent of why the invader is present, is a serious violation. That is not the time to assess the invader's reasons for being there.

Even California has a Castle Doctrine and does not require one to retreat in your home or in public. (That question was constantly on the California CCW written test.). Clear rules apply, restricting CD coverage for people who have the right to be in the home.

Bemoaning the fate of a clear invader insults the concept of family and home.
 
Just to clarify, in English common-law, "Castle Doctrine" referred to the concept that if someone attempted to break into your home, you were justified in committing homicide on that person as a man's home was his castle. In modern terms, it typically means that if someone forcibly and unlawfully enters your home, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear of an immediate threat of death of serious bodily injury. Howevever, this varies a lot from state to state depending on how the law is written and minor differences in the wording can have a big difference on the legal outcome. In some states, this doctrine has been extended to vehicles, boats, etc. (something to think about next time you feel the urge to yank someone's car door open and yell at them over a fender bender).

"Stand Your Ground" laws deal with the duty to retreat in a public place. Again, under the old English common law, you had a duty to "retreat to the wall" in a public confrontation. Once you had retreated that far, the English recognized the danger in attempting to retreat further and you could plead self-defense/necessity. American law borrows from this the concept that you have a duty to retreat in public places, IF you can do so in perfect safety. Not surprisingly, this led to juries taking hours to decide what the defendant had to decide in fractions of a second and the results were not always what most of the members of this forum would consider just. Even Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes did not favor this aspect of English common law. As a result, many jurisdictions completely removed the duty to retreat in public provided the person had not done anything to provoke the confrontation or escalate it (Modern "Stand Your Ground" laws - which again, vary a lot from state to state.)

Don't want to get too off track here; but I did want to clarify the difference between the two concepts. The press and the antis regularly confuse what these laws are about, so it helps if we can present a coherent explanation when discussing them.
 
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