This is what most self defense shootings are..a conflict that gets out of hand

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The initial article's information leaves me hangin. The shooter was certainly acting in a responsible manner in packing after a threat were made against his child. The party might not have been ended because the people running it might not have known about the threat. Sometimes these fights occur in a small group and stay there.
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Reeves children were the ones throwing the party, at Reeves lakehouse. I can see him not knowing if he stayed home, but his son intentionally came and got him.

He then proceeds to take two firearms(1 unloaded which I question) and heads over to the party in question.

There is also no mention of threats make specifically at his children. Clark just threatened to return with friends.

At this point, who knows how much time has elasped or what happens next.

Did Reeves and his son return to the party and the son got jumped by Clark? Or was it a different group? It would seem like a different group since Clark already left.

I also wonder what lead Reeves to shoot Clark when he returned. The article makes no mention. Really, the way I read it Clark just shows up and Reeves shoots him. Did Clark say or do something?

As the parent, Reeves should have ended the party then and there. Maybe he was going to but didn't have time because Clark just showed up.

I really don't know how to express this next part, but its something like "kids being kids and Reeves as the adult should have been a bit more levelheaded."
 
The father was told that his daughter had been attacked at the party and watched as his son was attacked by three people.
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Is this just poor writing? The father watched his son be attacked by 3 people? Does the author mean that the father was told his son was attacked, or that the father witnessed an attack and didn't get involved?
 
First off there was a drinking party with teenagers???
Dad totes a shotgun and pistol in view of everyone to break it up???
Isn't it always a racial thing???

So much to say but not really...just stupidity and good ole fashioned [stupid] behaviors making the inanimate object "gun" the bad guy in the story....
 
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Interesting discussion on a topic not discussed enough.

I agree that avoidance and deescalation are the keys. The *last* thing you want to have to do is use a gun in self defense. If there is anything you can do to keep yourself safe to avoid using the gun, do that instead. Even if it involves eating some pride.

When there are no other options, that is when you do what you have to do. Just work to avoid that if at all possible.
 
my 40 year old neighbor got shot mid afternoon by my 65 year old neighbor. over smoke from burning leaves. infront of their kids. the man shot summed it up in court "2 grown men didn't act like it and both of em are gonna regret it the rest of their life. the shooter got what at his age ia likely a life sentence left a 12 year old daughter and a wife they have lost their home as well as dad. the other guy left the area has medical issues that may leave him unable to operaste heavy equipment again . and yea there was a lil beer involved. and the older man was the agressor came and shot the other guy in his own driveway then for some reason thought the cops were gonna arrest the guy he shot
 
In 22 years as a police officer, I saw very few "classic" self defense situations where someone was just attacked out of the blue and then defended himself. Most of what I've seen were situations that started with a conflict, many were actually mutual combat and not self defense.
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No offense Jeff, but you are a LEO in Illinois. A fairly antigun state, that probably has far fewer law abiding citizens who own guns per capita than say, Texas. In places like Chicago, citizens are strong armed all the time , without the means to defend themselves. My sister went to the art school in Chicago for a year and was mugged 3 times. The third mugger was pepper sprayed and when she filed the report, it was strongly suggested to her {by a Chicago PD officer} that she leave the pepper spraying out of her statement as she could be charged with some kind of prohibited weapons charge.:cuss:

My point being that in the areas of the country where the citizenry is allowed the option of self defense, you will get more good guy/bad guy type shootings.

Just my .02
 
I usually give people crap here about the idea of going to ridiculous lengths like locking up their guns or taking off their carry gun because they're having a drink but this does display the value of the other part of that, knowing your limits. Some people need their cars keys taken from them when they drink...some people truly need to lock up the guns when they drink. Know which you are.
 
I think the point of the story is that it's easier in the long run to say "Sorry" or just walk away then to allow the ego/machismo to get one deeper in the excrement. This goes double for someone with a weapon, legally carried or not.
 
I believe it is against the law to use a fiream in self defense in an altercation that you yourself take part in escalating.

Every state is different. But I think this is the law in Iowa, where I live.

My interpretation is that this means...

if someone calls you a name, and then you call him a name, then he threatens you, then you threaten him, then he pushes you, then you push back, then he pulls a knife, then you shoot him...

you just broke the law and will do hard time and will never own another firearm again. You are a felon for the rest of your life. If he dies, you might even be put to death.
 
No offense Jeff, but you are a LEO in Illinois. A fairly antigun state, that probably has far fewer law abiding citizens who own guns per capita than say, Texas.
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The entire state is not Chicago. I live and worked 275 miles South of Chicago. I would bet that there are just as many guns in homes here as there are in Texas. Illinois is not an antigun state. Chicago is an antigun area. In most of the rest of the state you'll find the same attitude towards firearms as you'd find in Indiana, Kentucky or Missouri.

Are you actually suggesting that I didn't see enough legitimate self defense because we don't own enough guns? I can't even count the number of times I've responded to an armed homeowner holding a trespasser at gunpoint. It's a common call around here. I've had to be very careful bringing a state police crime scene tech into a burglary scene because when I called the victim's house to tell him we were on our way over, his wife told me he was sitting in the house (his deceased mother's) that was burglarized with his gun in case the burglars came back. I can relate a story about an elderly man who shot tweaker who was trying to break his front door down, through the door. The tweaker was so high, he fought with the responding officers and no one knew he was shot until he was subdued with OC. Illinois residents in places outside Chicago are just as likely to defend themselves as Texans.

I'm going to let you in on the dirty little secret of violence in America. It's almost exclusively confined to the criminal class. They prey on each other. They get drunk or high and fight with each other. Sometimes they injure or kill each other in self defense while committing another crime such as attempting to rip off each other's drugs or cash. Yes, that's right, there are cases of legitimate self defense where the drug dealer killed the guy who was going to rob him in self defense.

If you don't hang out with criminals and stay away from where they hang out, your chance of becoming the victim of a violent crime drops to next to nothing. Unfortunately, sometimes the criminals frequent the same venues the law abiding people do.

Now that we've got deescalation on the table, let's talk about how to deescalate. Anyone heard of Verbal Judo?

Jeff
 
sometimes just turning and hauling butt can work lacks dignity also lacks bullet holes so i balances out. everyone should see what a 357 slug tearingt through the fleshy part of a thigh does. its inspirational
 
This is a most excellent thread. I believe Jeff is 100% correct in his assesments so far. What he is saying is not confined just to Illinois or America either. People are the same all over the world.

I am involved in a fair bit of conflict resolution these days and this is most often exactly the type of thing that happens. The ego tower is a hard one for most people to climb down from once they have climbed it with their gun.

Shifting the focus of the actors emotions to something else is an art form that requires a lot of listening and only talking at the right time, when it will be most effective. Allowing people to vent appropriately can be quite helpful.
 
let's talk about how to deescalate. Anyone heard of Verbal Judo?
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I have, as well. I would, also, like to know more, if you're offering usable and informative techniques that have worked for you in the past and still will in the civilian world. As you mentioned earlier, I'm not nearly as restricted as my brethren in Ill.

However, IME, it appears that nothing you do can de-escalate the confrontation about 60% of the time. Either I could be with buddies in a bar (I don't drink but I still like to go hang out with the guys and shoot some pool) or sometimes even sober people have just too much pride and were never taught respect by their parents and when you turn your back that is usually mistake number 1. The act of non-verbally turning your back to exit is sometimes seen as serious disrespect and that can lead to a swift "donkey punch", if you're not careful.

I totally understand what you mean and I know you know what you're talking about. Sometimes, though, it seems like 90% of the answers on THR involve "Don't ever, ever be around where trouble could be (ie: go live in a cave on a deserted island)" and I feel that this is just silly at best and damaging at worst. People are social creatures and confrontation is and will always be unavoidable, at one point or another, no matter how sheltered you may be.
 
First, the story is poorly written. It is hard to tell if it was the father who watched the beating, or the sister.

With all due respect to Jeff White (as well as gratitude for his service), what is the gun culture in Illinois like? I question this because I think it might be possible that “shall issue” law could tend to create a greater atmosphere of legal awareness among the states gun owners. For instance, in Michigan, people take classes where they are taught the basic of the lawful use of force. Before “shall issue” this wasn’t such an issue. I’m not saying it makes a difference, but just pondering the thought.

Onto the topic at hand.

The article doesn’t mention any underage drinking however, in view of the reporting of the father’s drinking, I’m guessing that that would have been the least of nefarious activities for minors at that party.

De-escalation starts from the beginning. If your kid is having a party, be a good host (just like the video says). Know who your guests are, and monitor them closely to make sure nothing nefarious is going on. Also have someone trusted to monitor the locked door, to keep out any undesirables. The father should have been at the party supervising the activities. It might not have done much good, but he at least would have been on hand in case he was needed. Once assault occurs, police should be called immediately (at which time they should also be notified of the evictee’s intention to return with backup) to file charges and interview witnesses if they choose (although I‘m guessing it was a mutual combat thing, but that‘s the problem of the combatants). (A problem I see with this is that it‘s possible that one of the remaining kids might possibly get caught with something they shouldn‘t have on my property. Sticky situation, but kids will do that). I would also stop the party, and ask any witnesses to stay, while quietly getting a list of as many attendees as possible. Get the witnesses inside somewhere safe, and be vigilant while waiting for the police response (remember, the person threatened to come back with friends). Meet the police outside, and have the witnesses file out at their request.

Don’t drink. One of the bad things about drinking is that you never know when mayhem may knock at your door. If it happens when you are drinking, it opens up the potential for bad things. Being under the influence will always put you in a bad light legally, even if you are in the right.


Have a plan for who will call the police if evictee shows up before the police. Make sure to school the designated caller on what to tell the PD should this happen (try to avoid panic). Similar for if the show up after police leave. Pray they show up while the police are actually there.
 
I have, as well. I would, also, like to know more, if you're offering usable and informative techniques that have worked for you in the past and still will in the civilian world. As you mentioned earlier, I'm not nearly as restricted as my brethren in Ill.
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I'm not going to get into the nuts and bolts of verbal judo on a public forum. Not because it's restricted information, but because it's copyrighted material. It's a good program and it works. If you don't want to pony up the bucks to take a class, it is fairly expensive, you can get a lot from the books.

http://www.verbaljudo.org/index.html

The act of non-verbally turning your back to exit is sometimes seen as serious disrespect and that can lead to a swift "donkey punch", if you're not careful.
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This is true, you often invite a sucker punch by just turning tail and walking away.

First and foremost, be calm. Your adrenalin is going to be flowing as your body prepares for fight or flight. There isn't much you can do to stop that. But you can work on appearing calm. Slow deep breaths will help slow your heart rate. You don't have to go into a yoga like deep breathing exercise, just take slow deep breaths through your nose.

Step back and give yourself some room to maneuver. It's a common intimidation technique for an assailant to get in his victim's space. If he does, step back. Assume what's known in LE as the interview position. Feet about shoulder width apart, strong side foot back a bit, strong hand around the belt buckle and weak hand up as if you are going to gesture with it. To the untrained person you are going to look pretty harmless but in reality you are ready to fight. Your feet are actually in a fighting stance that will give you balance, you are prepared to block an incoming blow with your weak hand and strike or access your weapon with your strong hand. But to the untrained eye, you don't look like you are ready to fight. You can escalate the situation with body language. So you want to be ready, but not look like you are.

Let your assailant run his mouth. Don't interrupt let him get it out. Then calmly respond. Put your ego in your pocket and leave it there. It doesn't matter what name you are called or what he says about your mother or significant other. It's just words and your wife or girlfriend would rather have you home with her at the end of the night, not in the morgue, the hospital or jail.

Apologize for whatever the assailant thinks you did to wrong him. Do it loud enough that any bystanders can hear you. this is important should you be unable to deescalate and have to use force to resolve the situation. In the same loud voice ask if there is anything you can do to resolve the situation peacefully. Volunteer to leave. Listen to the second outburst from him that may be coming. Don't let him into your space, if he steps closer back away again. With any kind of luck being unable to goad you into a response that will give him whatever reason he thinks he needs to escalate to violence, he'll figure he beat you, intimidated you and puff his chest out and become interested in something else. Take that as your signal to leave.

Of course some people are just determined to fight. You won't be able to deescalate everything, but if you handle it calmly and make it clear to everyone around you that you don't want to fight, you might not get caught up in a murky mutual combat situation if you do have to use force.

Jeff
 
Oh, I almost forgot. I do have a story off the top of my head.

I was a freshman at the University of Southern Indiana (many years ago, it was about midnight) and four buddies and I were eating at a Denny's not far from USI. Immediately, as we entered, there was a group of Mexican "thugs" if you will. They were carrying on and being loud, disrespecting customers in general, old folks too. Just disgusting behavior in general.

Unfortunately, we were seated directly behind them and this attracted their wrath. They were staring us down every time one of the 7 of them got up to wander around and go play around the restrooms, as well as muttering profanities under their breath knowingly within earshot. Not one of us said a word, completely ignored them. They began to file out harassing people on the way.

My buddy doesn't notice one of them still at the register and says very loudly "Thank God!!" (thinking they were all gone). This was all the excuse they needed to go all out. He approaches our table very loudly and cursing. We sit motionless. My buddy grabs his fork (we were too young to CC) and slips it under the table before the guy gets to us and can see anything.

By then, his other buddies waiting in their Cadillac begin to file in and join in the ruckus. Employees have already called the police by then and try to usher them out saying "The police are on their way so you better get outta here!". They start hollerin' about how they're from NY and we're going to "get it" when we leave. They said they were going to wait for us in the parking lot. The entire time not one of us said a single word. This ordeal went on for about ten minutes and I was surprised not one of us mouthed back.

The Denny's employee was pretty serious about our safety and really insisted we stay inside until the police arrive, as we were just wanting to leave at this point. At least we had finished our meal by then and it was on the house for not escalating the situation. Police arrive and inform us "We found a Cadillac with Texas plates packed full of Mexican thugs and we identified the vehicle and occupants as the aggressors. You boy's were pretty lucky, they were waiting for you in an empty lot of a closed Home Depot. There were more of them than you.". I guess they thought they were hard ya' know, being from NY and all with TX plates:rolleyes:. Well, they got to find out what a holding cell in So. IN. is like:cool:. The way the police made it seem, without giving away info on their case, these thugs may have had a crappy cut down shotgun, a rusty old 'throw away' revolver and quite possibly a good amount of 'product'.

For no good reason, these guys probably have weapons charges and possession of amounts of product worthy of an intent charge, as well as disorderly conduct and threatening bodily harm.

My buddies and I came out smelling like flowers with our very own nice Denny's lady to escort us to our car:D.
 
This is an good and relevant thread, Jeff,
even if it is based on a family tragedy.

Your post 41 is an excellent, concise primer on deescalation
that doesn't take long to read and envision.

It's a pleasure to see our mods
not only take the high road,
but to lead the way.

Thanks.

Nem
 
I'm going to let you in on the dirty little secret of violence in America. It's almost exclusively confined to the criminal class. They prey on each other. They get drunk or high and fight with each other. Sometimes they injure or kill each other in self defense while committing another crime such as attempting to rip off each other's drugs or cash. Yes, that's right, there are cases of legitimate self defense where the drug dealer killed the guy who was going to rob him in self defense.

If you don't hang out with criminals and stay away from where they hang out, your chance of becoming the victim of a violent crime drops to next to nothing. Unfortunately, sometimes the criminals frequent the same venues the law abiding people do.
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You said a mouthful here, Jeff.
Most of the altercations and s/d situations I've ever been involved in usually involved someone who was a part of the criminal class.
I find that this part of the community is not too responsive to deescalation and much more willing to duke it out, or worse.
 
Jeff White said:
David, I agree, you can do everything right and still die and I'm sorry about the outcome to your friend's incident.

I'd still like to talk about deescalating the situation. It's important and not often talked about here.

Jeff
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Jeff, I think this is an excellent idea.

Perhaps a dedicated subforum of Strategies and Tactics could be created, specifically to deal with discussions of deescalation and nonviolent resolution.
 
Just a few things I noticed.
I didn't see anything in the story about underage drinking.
The father had been drinking when arrested but people under stress are known to take a drink. This is not unusual. No indication that he was intoxicated when he shot the victim according to the story.

When the teen left going to get his posse bent on revenge why didn't someone call the police/sheriff?

I have a hard time believing that the person who was shot was as innocent as the story implies. Having armed friends that return and do a drive by shooting raises even more doubts about him. Sounds more like a wannabe gangster.

Shooter sitting on porch with a shotgun? I have mixed feelings about this.

Was this a racial shooting? Maybe not when it occured but will turn into one when the NAACP arrives to march or the white guy is found not guilty.

This is a tragic story.
 
Jeff White said:
If you don't hang out with criminals and stay away from where they hang out, your chance of becoming the victim of a violent crime drops to next to nothing. Unfortunately, sometimes the criminals frequent the same venues the law abiding people do.

Now that we've got deescalation on the table, let's talk about how to deescalate. Anyone heard of Verbal Judo?

Jeff
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When I took my CHL class, we were required to talk about threat deescalation -- we didn't talk about it very long. What the instructor said boiled down to:

1. Don't go stupid places.
2. Don't do stupid things.
3. Don't have stupid friends.

and

Learn to put your ego in your pocket and leave it there.

Personally, I have found drunken belligerent types repond fairly well to a dose of good, self-deprecating humor. If you can make a funny at your own expense in a tense situation, you may well defuse it. This works well on normal people who are enraged for some reason -- i don't know if it would have any effect on a more criminal mind. I expect it would not.

Jeff, I really think you ought to summarize your threat deescalation tips into a sticky thread in this forum, or start a new subforum dedicated to this topic. I think it would serve us well to discuss stories of how we avoided possible violence.
 
After 17 years as a LEO I have learned two important things.

#1 There are three sides to every story.
His side, Her side, and the truth.

#2 If anything can be screwed up leave it to your local news paper. I have seen facts so screwed up that you wonder who these "reporters" talked to.
 
Chicago is an antigun area.
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In the newspapers it is Jeff. I know far too many Chicagoans that not only are gun owners, but carry concealed too, they are just very quiet about it. The only reason Daly and Blagojevich continuously shoot down ISRA and any gun law is that they would lose in a landslide and that's what they fear the most. All those people that say "Only the Police should have guns", are probably closet gun owners themselves. Stay safe.
 
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