This is what most self defense shootings are..a conflict that gets out of hand

[Jeff White]

Members are continually posting hypothetical situations that are pretty much the classic self defense shooting. Here is an account of how most self defense uses of force actually happen.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_us/sc_party_shooting

SC father accused of killing teenager at party

By KATRINA A. GOGGINS, Associated Press Writer Tue Aug 19, 8:22 PM ET

LEXINGTON, S.C. - A South Carolina man shot an unarmed teenager to death after a scuffle at a weekend party thrown by his children, then shot two teens involved in a retaliatory shooting at his home, authorities said Tuesday.

Francis Marion Reeves III, 62, is charged with murder in the Friday shooting death of 17-year-old Deshaun Rashad Clark and was released on a $125,000 bond after a Tuesday court hearing.

The shooting is still under investigation, but prosecutors and authorities described a chaotic scene at the small party hosted by Reeves' children at the family's lake house in Lexington County, just west of Columbia.

Reeves' children claimed a cell phone was stolen. Someone accused Clark of taking it, and he scuffled with another person and was struck several times before leaving and threatening to return with friends, police said.

Reeves' son went to the family's other nearby home to get his father, who brought a loaded pistol and unloaded shotgun over to the lake house. The father was told that his daughter had been attacked at the party and watched as his son was attacked by three people.

After Clark returned with friends, Reeves shot him, prosecutors said. Partygoers scattered and friends took the injured teen to a fire station. He died at a hospital.

"He literally bled to death," prosecutor Rick Hubbard said.

Reeves' attorney, Dick Harpootlian, said his client acted in self-defense, fearing that he and his children were in danger.

"This is a tragedy. Anytime somebody dies, anytime somebody's killed, that's a tragedy, but one has a right to act in self defense," Harpootlian said.

Reeves returned to his home afterward and was sitting on the front porch when one of the slain teen's friends drove by and shot at his home in retaliation, police said. Reeves fired back with a shotgun, police said, striking two teens who were in the car. They were not seriously injured.

One of the slain teen's friends has been charged with assault with intent to kill in the drive-by shooting. Breon Jacoby Mayers, 17, remained in jail Tuesday after his bail was set at $100,000.

When deputies arrested Reeves on Saturday, he appeared intoxicated, authorities said.

"He was traumatized and upset about what had happened and had been up all night long. And he had several drinks," Harpootlian said.

Reeves did not speak about the shooting during the hearing Tuesday, but nodded to family members as he left the courtroom. Around two dozen family members of the slain teen also attended.

Family members described Clark as a soft-spoken and sensitive teen who planned to play sports at Chapin High School this year.

Family members and some residents of the community have speculated that race was a factor in the shooting — the dead teen is black and Reeves and his children are white — but authorities say race was not a factor.

Clark's uncle, Corinthea Stack, 49, said he feared that Reeves' release could cause more violence in the town just 22 miles from the state's capital.

"We don't want it to inflame ... more violence," Stack said.

There are no details about the actual shooting. I imagine they won't come out until the trial. Maybe it was self defense and maybe it wasn't. We don't know and we may never know. What we do know is a man is dead and the man who shot him was trying to drink himself into oblivion when he was arrested. Not likely the outcome he expected when he pressed the trigger. Would it have been smarter to break the party up and have everyone go home?

Jeff

 

[fletcher]

Lots of stupid here on both sides, but I don't think murder charge is proper for the following reasons:

1. Clark threatened to come back with friends.
2. Clark made good on his threat, and most likely came back looking to continue the fight.
3. When Clark leaves, the situation has legally de-escalated, IIRC. As soon as Clark came back with his buddies, that's a new problem, and THIS is what he ends up getting shot as a direct result of. Granted, Clark could have said "I have friends in case you guys try to attack me again", but given the circumstances, that's pretty doubtful, especially considering his friends do this:

One of the slain teen's friends has been charged with assault with intent to kill in the drive-by shooting.

Dad should have broken up the party and called the police, and Clark should have left and stayed gone (and called the police himself if he was attacked for no reason). But, had the police not arrived before Clark returned, it may have not gone any differently.

 

[ilbob]

chaotic is a good word for it.

one has to wonder why he did not just call the cops up front.

 

[Jeff White]

Three years ago I was the first officer on the scene at a similar situation. Only the weapon was a car, not a firearm.

Large party in the country, lots of underage drinking going on, adults hosting the party didn't care. Group of kids gets into an argument over a cell phone (why is it always cell phones?), one kid is told to leave. Says he coming back with his big brother. Expelled kid leaves, party continues as before. Kid comes back with big brother and a friend. Fighting words are exchanged, pushing and shoving. Initial troublemaker, brother and friend get into car to leave, and run down the kid he was arguing with on the way out. Victim is not dead, but is crippled for life at age 22.

It wasn't my case, not in my jurisdiction, I was asked to respond because I was the closest officer, and take care of things until the deputies arrived.

Yes the kid who ran the other one down claimed self defense, then he claimed it was an accident. 911 wasn't called until many of the underage drinkers had left, in the meantime the victim is on the ground bleeding from a compound fracture. It was a mess. I imagine very similar to this case.

Jeff

 

[ilbob]

did the adults hosting the party get charged?

 

[Big Del]

Fatherly instinct is very strong. It isn't going to turn out good for anyone. How do you denfend your self and family with a good outcome? If someone has intent to harm wich why else would you bring a bunch of friends back. Is this a castle doctrine situation. I suppose this has more to do with legal than S&T.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah it sounds like the "soft spoken and sensitive" Clark was a banger who's friends were fully prepared to kill. Whether Clark himself was presenting an imminent deadly threat when he was shot is another question. The article doesn't say bupkus about the actual shooting.

Anyway if you have teenaged kids, you're smart to establish a no party rule. No driving, no parties, no more than one or two friends. It amazes me how permissive parents are.

 

[moga]

I disagree with you assessment of most self defense shootings as a result of a dispute that has gotten out of hand.

I have been a regular visitor to Civilian Gun Self Defense blog for years. The reports of self defense shootings seem varied at best. Few shootings happen between associates that become involved in dispute as a proportion of all the reports of SD shootings in total.

I'm curious. JW, do you have a LE background by chance?

 

[Big Del]

I missed the race part, of course it was race related. Someone gets shot and it has to be race. This is getting a little out of hand.

 

[Jeff White]

did the adults hosting the party get charged?

Wasn't my case, so I take no responsibility for who was charged and who wasn't. I'll just say it wasn't handled the way it would have been had it been my case..........

How do you defend your self and family with a good outcome?

That's why this thread is in S&T and not legal. To talk about just that. One thing that could have been done was to stop the party, send everyone home. Of course I know there will be some people who will say that's copping out and they have a right to have a party on their own property, and I suppose that's true. But sometimes a little common sense goes a long way towards avoiding trouble.

I disagree with you assessment of most self defense shootings as a result of a dispute that has gotten out of hand.

In 22 years as a police officer, I saw very few "classic" self defense situations where someone was just attacked out of the blue and then defended himself. Most of what I've seen were situations that started with a conflict, many were actually mutual combat and not self defense.

Jeff

 

[only1asterisk]

This is what most self defense shootings are..a conflict that gets out of hand

Your statement makes it appear that both parties are equally irresponsible.

David

 

[Jeff White]

Your statement makes it appear that both parties are equally irresponsible.

In many cases they are. Ego, machismo, alcohol and other drugs, and 100 other factors figure in to turn simple disagreements into violence.

If Reeves had stopped the party and called 911 he might not be facing murder charges right now. We don't have any details of the shooting. But it seems that what the police and prosecutor know about what happened is ambiguous enough to cause them to charge murder.

We talk here all the time about when and how to shoot. We almost never talk about the skill that you will make the most use of, how to deescalate a situation.

Jeff

 

[only1asterisk]

Jeff,

I think it is important to say that a person can do everything in their power to avoid such a situation and violence can still come to them.

I have a friend that was in a very similar situation 7 or 8 years ago. He was trained in deescalation and crisis management. The primary difference in his case was that he was unarmed. When the people that had been expelled from the party returned, he was the one that was shot, 5 times IIRC.

David

 

[Jeff White]

David, I agree, you can do everything right and still die and I'm sorry about the outcome to your friend's incident.

I'd still like to talk about deescalating the situation. It's important and not often talked about here.

Jeff

 

[mbt2001]

The father was told that his daughter had been attacked at the party and watched as his son was attacked by three people.

Given the information, I wonder why he didn't call the police. Then, at least, if he had to shoot someone, he had a better claim of Self Defense.

The problem is that human judgement isn't perfect. What seems like a good idea in one setting has a way of not seeming like a good idea the next day, especially when the piper is demanding payment.

Edit:

The quieter you live, the less footprints you leave, the more you mind your own business the better of you are in this life. No good deed goes unpunished... (not saying that this was one, but his intention to protect his kids was honorable, if misguided.)

 

[csmkersh]

If Reeves had stopped the party and called 911 he might not be facing murder charges right now. We don't have any details of the shooting. But it seems that what the police and prosecutor know about what happened is ambiguous enough to cause them to charge murder

Maybe the shooting wouldn't have occurred and maybe it would. All we know is the Reeves shot and killed Clark after he and some backup returned to where the party was being held.

We don't know if the youths who shot at Reeves later are the same ones who returned to the party with Clark. It's not unreasonable to assume they were. We don't know just what triggered Reeves into shooting Clark other than he said he feared for himself and his children. Maybe the DA made a good indictment; maybe he didn't. There's too much we don't know here.
​

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

It sounds like even if you de-escalate and leave, the other party can come looking for you later with intent to kill. Wouldn't that make it "classic" in that you were someplace you were supposed to be and were attacked, regardless of whether or not it was a stranger or someone who scuffled with you earlier? You attempted to break contact and were essentially backed into a corner later. (ignoring the earlier shooting, unless that is common in these cases. Seems like an earlier fight would be more common).
Wonder if the homeowner will also get charged with a bunch of "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" charges too if alcohol was present.

 

[only1asterisk]

David, I agree, you can do everything right and still die and I'm sorry about the outcome to your friend's incident.

I'd still like to talk about deescalating the situation. It's important and not often talked about here.

Deescalation is good topic and a useful skill. There are way too many people convinced that it is 100% effective and that if it doesn't work in a given situation that the individual attempting it has failed in some way.

David

 

[Jeff White]

We don't know just what triggered Reeves into shooting Clark other than he said he feared for himself and his children. Maybe the DA made a good indictment; maybe he didn't. There's too much we don't know here.

That's true, we don't know anything more then Reeves shot Clark. But if Reeves had taken his children and gone home with them, would it have happened at all? The issue isn't the shooting, we don't know enough about it to judge one way or the other. But we can and should talk about other options.

It sounds like even if you de-escalate and leave, the other party can come looking for you later with intent to kill. Wouldn't that make it "classic" in that you were someplace you were supposed to be and were attacked, regardless of whether or not it was a stranger or someone who scuffled with you earlier?

Exactly! You've changed the situation from one that is very murky to a more clear cut one. Not nearly as dramatic as arming yourself and heading over to the party to keep an eye on things, but probably smarter.

Jeff

 

[V1K1NG0]

I wish there were more details. As stated canceling the party was probably the best idea but it makes me wonder if these party goers were drinking alcohol as well. Hence the liquid courage for the guy to come back with his buddies. Yet, who is to say these guys wouldnt come looking for them later anyway.

Yet, something inside me says that this is my house and my property why should I falter in the face of adversity? Some say that goes for machismo but I think it also counts for what is right. You should respect others when playing on their turf. If you never learned respect then you are already behind the curve.

Really wish it could have been avoided.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Well... I'd go so far as to say that many shootings claimed to be self defense are in reality conflicts that got out of hand. All too often there is 'history' between the shooter and the shootee, some sort of pre-existing contact or conflict. All too often difficulties are fanned by excess ego, temper, alcohol or drugs. And then things get out of hand.

I never spent time on the street as a paid LEO, I did ride reserve for a couple of years with my small-town PD, and I spent six years as an EMT in the same area. There were more shootings among those I saw that were the result of conflicts escalating out of hand, than what we would consider 'classic' self defense shootings. My experience in the field echoes what Jeff said...

lpl

 

[FieroCDSP]

A friend of mine was recently in an encounter that went from simple arguing, to fighting, to assault with a metal rake, to a shotgun discharged into the air. While I can't speak to the details with certainty, there was ample time for people to simply walk away.

I can see some defensive shootings being avoidable by simply walking away early on, but I wouldn't say that most are "a conflict that gets out of hand." Some are unavoidable from one view, such as a mugging or an armed robbery in a store or home.

If the point of the thread is that one or both people in an argument must be willing to continue it to result in a shooting, I agree. People really just need to learn to step away and ask whether what they are fighting over is really that important, or worth the legal trouble. A cell phone is not.

The initial article's information leaves me hangin. The shooter was certainly acting in a responsible manner in packing after a threat were made against his child. The party might not have been ended because the people running it might not have known about the threat. Sometimes these fights occur in a small group and stay there.
The question hinges on what the "victims" did to result in being shot at when they returned. It is certainly possible they were armed or otherwise intent on using force to show who was boss. It is also possible the shooter fired without further provocation. We'll have to see.

 

[only1asterisk]

If the point of the thread is that one or both people in an argument must be willing to continue it to result in a shooting, I agree.

I initially misread here. No response required.

 

[TallPine]

In 22 years as a police officer, I saw very few "classic" self defense situations where someone was just attacked out of the blue and then defended himself. Most of what I've seen were situations that started with a conflict, many were actually mutual combat and not self defense.

So, most shootings that you have dealt with were crimes and not self-defense. I suppose that makes a lot of sense.

What about the ones that were self defense ???

Even better than de-escalating would be not escalating in the first place.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'd still like to talk about deescalating the situation. It's important and not often talked about here.

Your wish is my command 8^). Let me refer you to Skip Gochenour's lecture notes at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm , where he outlines a different model of self defense for plain old citizens.

It's called ADEE. It stands for Avoidance, De-Escalation/Disengagement, Escape and Evasion. Having sat through the lecture and its accompanying slide show live, I can recommend the ADEE model as the appropriate course of action for armed citizens. As Skip indicates, the more often cited AOJ model is really more appropriate to law enforcement IMHO.

lpl