Stay off my lawn!

[Meplat]

My late grandfather used to keep 50-pound bags of rock salt in the garage (for melting ice, of course), but today I wouldn't have a clue where to buy it. And my local Dick's Sporting Goods is always out of stock on double-ought rock salt shells.

<sigh> This whole "rock salt" thing and the stuff I see here on the board makes me wonder how many believe in the four rules.

Once worked with a man...good guy...had a daughter who married a not so good guy...she had a child by him, things went south, and she divorced the bum. Moved a trailer in next to her dad's place. Late one night, got an hysterical phone call from the daughter, grabbed his Remington 1100, and headed next door to defend his daughter and grandson. Bum had broken out the front window, reached in, grabbed the grandson's arm (breaking it in the process) and was attempting to pull the child through the window when Pops rounded the corner of the trailer. Pops never hesitated, threw the shotgun up, and unloaded a round into his former son-in-law's fat ass. He thought he had a round of buckshot. Turned out to be birdshot. As Pops was grateful for until the day he died in a truck wreck a couple of years later, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS JUSTIFIED IN SHOOTING TO PROTECT HIS GRANDCHILD. He once confided in me that the sounds of that man's screams when the shot tore into his ass haunted his dreams every night.

Load 'em up with rock salt. "Pepper" a kid with salt. And pray, pray, pray that you have the correct round in the chamber. You can find the rock salt over by the supplies for making homemade ice cream in your local grocer's, if you are willing to ignore the four rules.

Personally, if it ain't worth killing over, I ain't pointing a gun at no one, no matter what it's loaded with. And walking across a lawn, prior provocation or not does not qualify as a "killing offense". Anyone who goes the rock salt route is begging for trouble. Sting him...piss him off...how you going to prove that what you fired was rock salt and not a clean miss? Can you say "aggravated assault with a firearm"? Can you say "I love you, you big hairy guy"? Chances are, you'll get the opportunity. If you are lucky, your cellmate will be gentle with you.

 

[Strings]

I hate to say it but, in the world of today, Meplat is probably right...

 

[c_yeager]

A couple of folks here got things right, in my opinion. It is the parents fault. They failed to raise a child who is respectful of his neighbors. They also raised a bully. Constantly engaging in passive-aggressive behavior like continuing to trespass over an other’s property especially when you know it’s going to push the guy’s hot button is no better than stealing some little kid’s lunch money.

You do realize that this whole statement only makes the least amount of sense if you believe every single word said by the shooter, and also assume some facts that he didnt even state.

Remember this is the man whith the sort of mind that justified shooting a kid for walking on his grass, and didnt really think that he was wrong for doing so. Even if you take the word of an obvious mental defecient at face value, you would still have to assume that he even made his concerns known to the kid and his parents. He has not even stated this.

What if his yard happened to be in the most direct path of the sidewalk from the front door of this kids house. Now, lets say that the kid shortcutted over 5 inches of the guys lawn. This infuriated the home owner, but in his abject cowardnice he chose not to confront anyone about it. Instead he sat inside and fumed in a rage, in his mind firmly assured that the kid and his parents *know* how much it pisses him off. This assurance is as strong as any psychopath believes in his fantasy, and it is without question in his mind that they are doing it simply to insult and persecute him, so he "defends" himself and his property against his "attackers".

The above scenario fits just as well with the available evidence as any other, and based on the obviously ludicrous actions of the shooter, it seems the most likely to me. We are not dealing with a rational person here, so it is truly foolish to assume that he behaved in a rational manner. This guy didnt go crazy overnight.

 

[joab]

Wow yeager, you got all that from from a micro newspaper article written by an unknown reporter

And do you realize that your comment makes sense only if you believe every word written by the reporter and that there cannot possibly any more or any different account to it than that

Right now all that is known is that a kid was shot on a neighbors property.

There is no quote attributed to the man that did the shooting about lawn walkers only of harassment and a vague comment allegedly attributed to police

 

[only1asterisk]

This reminds me about the thread where the 3 well-mannered youths were throwing eggs at passing cars and some jerk returned fire with a rifle. This is just as stupid.

The shooter is less than sane and guilty of murder. The dead miscreant bit off more than he could chew. Sometimes life is harsh.

You shouldn't around pissing people off and counting on their self control to save you. It isn't a dependable way to stay alive.

David

 

[buzz_knox]

And do you realize that your comment makes sense only if you believe every word written by the reporter and that there cannot possibly any more or any different account to it than that

Right now all that is known is that a kid was shot on a neighbors property.

You're right. That's all we have. So why is the kid a punk, a bully, a foul seed worthy of being destroyed?

Where's the evidence that the kid posed an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the shooter? Don't see it in the article. Don't see it in the 911 tape. But a lot of people are blaming the victim, not the shooter.

 

[scbair]

I strongly suspect there's a lot of details not mentioned in the article. While I absolutely agree the homeowner was NOT justified in shooting the punk, the few details provided enable me to make a judgment call; the "kid" WAS a punk! I also suspect his parents are punks. The reasons have been clearly enumerated already in this thread.

Now, as a teen who was reared by parents to not become a punk, I once witnessed small town justice. A new family moved to our little village from some "big city" (he was also from a different region of the country, but I'm an enlightened Southerner, so I don't tar all Yankees with the same brush ). He was apparently bored by small town life; decided to show us unsophisticated kids how to have some fun, by harassing an old guy down the street from the school. He'd walk through the old guy's yard every morning, make sure the town police weren't in sight, and kick or stomp his flowers & shrubs, drop paper scraps around the yard, and just make a nuisance of himself. If the old guy was in the yard, he'd just barely trespass along the edge of the yard and grin insolently.

After the first couple of incidents, the old guy called the kid's parents. He quickly figured out why the kid was a punk; the parents basically threatened him with legal action if he so much as yelled at their darling child.After several weeks of such harassment, the old guy, who was a retired cop, had had enough. So had the rest of us "small town hick kids." Old Pops was leaning on his walking stick in the front yard, near the sidewalk, as the punk headed to school. A friend and I were in sight, but I really don't think Pops saw us. As punk walked by, again j-u-s-t off the sidewalk on Pops' lawn, Pops slammed him hard on the shin with the cane. Now, Pops had never before been seen to rely on a cane . . .

Punk screamed like a baby and fell to the ground. Jumped up, saw my buddy & me, yelled he was gonna have Pops arrested, and limped off as quickly as he could toward school. Pops looked around, saw my buddy and me approaching, and looked concerned. Until, that is, my buddy and I assured Pops we had seen the entire incident, and that punk should be more careful running through people's yards or he might trip over another flower garden fence.

Sure enough, the parents screamed bloody murder, Pops denied any knowledge, and my buddy and I declared the punk had run through the yard and tripped over "something" and fell. Pops? Why, we just didn't recall seeing him at the time. Only time I was less than forthcoming with the town police.

Punk wasn't around much longer. His parents were pretty well despised by all the other residents. They were nasty, ornery and litigious, but they were also severely outnumbered! They left town, dunno where, and couldn't care less . . .

 

[Technosavant]

I think the disagreement comes down to this:

1) Those who think many on this thread are psychos ready to gun down kids for putting one foot on the wrong grass believe that the old guy snapped out of nowhere and unloaded on the kid.
2) Those who think that the old guy was harassed past his snapping point have heard news reports indicating a history of harassment, and while they do not excuse the shooting, believe that this situation was at least partly constructed by the youth himself.

As for the neighbors claiming "he was such a good kid," have you EVER heard about kids who, after death, are described as hellions? It doesn't happen. Even if they were.

 

[Meplat]

Now, as a teen who was reared by parents to not become a punk, I once witnessed small town justice.

Scbair, I was raised by a Dad who believed that to spare the rod was to spoil the child, and that youngsters should revere their elders. On more than one occasion I had my ass popped for blurting out something to an elder without using the obligatory "Ma'am" or "Sir". Not many more than one, mind you.

The only thing I see that ya'll might have done differently is to have stepped in and acted as the "tripping fence" so your elderly neighbor wouldn't have needed to. Water under the bridge now I know, but as Barney Fife used to say, Bud Nipping is a wonderful thing. Sometimes a neighbor needs a bit of help in the Bud Nipping department.

My brothers and I managed to disuade a couple of newcomers to our communtity from stealing bicycles for fun and profit, even though the rusted old Schwinns we had didn't seem to catch their eyes. Didn't have to shoot 'em to do it, and didn't have to put some grown up at risk of a lawsuit to make 'em stop. Amazing how easily some attitudes are adjusted. Shame more small town justice doesn't exist. World would be a friendlier, safer place. This was in the small town of Memphis, btw.

 

[Kramer Krazy]

Unless information comes forward that the kid did a whole lot more than cut across this guys lawn I do not see where this kid is "rotten" or a "punk" or any such thing.

I believe the CBS News story is hinting around to there being a bit more than just walking on the grass, as they reported this.....

...allegedly told the dispatcher that Mugrage had been "making the other kids harass me and my place, tearing things up."

I think getting other kids to harass him AND tearing things up is a bit more than just walking on the grass. The main reason that I never called the cops on my ex-neighbor is because I know her mentality (and that of her siblings) where I was *afraid* of my cars being vandalized or my home being broken into when I'm not home. They broke into the house on the other side of me by climbing through an unfinished wall from a storage room and busting out the ceiling. They used the house as a place to party until I put padlocks on the doors, called the previous owners, called the cops to have them check the place out, and hinted to one of the kids that the owner was looking to prosecute. How did I know it was them? My wife and I had seen that group of kids constantly coming and going from the fenced in back yard or actually seen them on the back porch. So.......Why did Martin quit calling the cops in 2003? Easy....He knew nothing would be done about it, because of the way things were handled when he did call them.

 

[spooney]

An important facet of survival is the ability to identify people who have short tempers and poor self control and then to avoid proximity as far as possible.

What if you've identified the person and you realize you are actually married to her?

 

[Byron Quick]

Wow I dont know what to say.

There is absolutely no way to justify shooting someone for walking on your lawn, no matter how many times you asked him not too, or what his parents may have told him.

The old guy is obviously mentally disturbed, but premeditated this act, so 1st degree murder for him. He can put a no trespassing sign on a chia pet in prison.
__________________

Master Blaster,

I am not trying to justify Martin shooting the kid. Nor am I trying to blame the parents for Martin shooting the kid. But the teenager obviously either had not been taught to respect other's property or lacked the mental capacity to learn. He obviously had not learned that there are people in this world whose reaction to minor provocations might be deadly. Whether his parents tried to teach him and he refuse to learn or was unalbe to learn is unknown. However, the tragedy that occurred was the responsibility of the man who pulled the trigger. But it is also a tragedy that he was so out of touch with reality that he was oblivious to the dangers of provoking wackos.

My neighbor who I mentioned not getting on with very well? I wouldn't mess with the weeds on his lawn for good money. I've seen the tics jump out all over his face when he gets irate. Short fuse. I won't light it. I'd tell any teenager I knew to go find some other old man to tease.

It's not a matter of justifying a person's actions. It's a matter of acknowledging the existence of people in this world who will kill for little of no reason and when one is identified-avoiding all interaction with that person.

 

[grimjaw]

An important facet of survival is the ability to identify people who have short tempers and poor self control and then to avoid proximity as far as possible.

We can't rely on that Byron, I'm afraid it's not enough.

We need to ban short tempers.

It's for the children.

jmm

 

[MrTwigg]

No matter how you look at this, nobody wins.

You do realize that this whole statement only makes the least amount of sense if you believe every single word said by the shooter, and also assume some facts that he didnt even state.

I'm not stating I believe the shooter. I am commenting on the written words.

didnt really think that he was wrong for doing so.

The artical clearly states;

Charles Martin called 911 on Sunday afternoon, saying calmly: "I just killed a kid."

Police, who released the call's contents, said Martin also told the dispatcher: "I've been harassed by him and his parents for five years."

Seems to me he knew exactly what he did and why he did it. I do believe he will be sorry for it for the rest of his life. It's not worth killing over.

Push came to shove. He shoved back.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I hope the people on here that got enough info from that article to decide the kid was a "punk" don't have kids of their own. Their hatred of young people would make it a pretty harsh living condition for their children. I saw this kind of mentality when I worked for CPS and it is not pretty. In fact it serves to produce angry bitter adults who do things like shoot children. If you have this mentality please do not have children. If you do have young children please consult a therapist and for gods sake lock the guns away for awhile. From what I read when the dispatcher asked where the kid was the man said "on HIS lawn"...not on "MY lawn". So how far onto this guys lawn could this kid have been to end up back on his own lawn after being shot twice in the chest with a 410?

 

[Biker]

Penguin...

The shooting should never have happened but it's just possible that an old man who just wanted to be left alone decided that 5 years of BS was enough. Kids today, many anyway, have grown up *knowing* that there are no real consequences to their actions.
Sometimes they're wrong.
Biker

 

[sheep]

agree

The kid should not have been there; the problem is our youth and this attitude about questioning authority and running around doing whatever they please. I don't think that taking his life was a good thing, but maybe it will make people think twice before they mess with someone's property. You have to keep in mind they had been harrasing this guy for a while, a long while - and there had been warnings and everything but (and I'm going to go ahead and blame this on faulty parenting) the kids kept pushing his buttons for fun. I hate the "kids will be kids" or "boys will be boys" response when someone needs to be accountable - unfortunately with the way things are going in society more publicity will have to be drawn to stories like this to help the kids with the common sense that the parents refuse to provide.

Personally I would have found another way to keep him out, like a well trained dog with one of those underground electric fences.

People need to respect each other, all the kid had to do was keep off his lawn - it's not like he didn't have plenty of warning.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

"Doing whatever they please"? He walked on a lawn. HE DIDN'T VANDELIZE, HE DIDN'T EGG THE HOUSE, HE DIDN'T GET VERBAL WITH THE OLD MAN, OR ANYTHING ELSE. I am sure if there had been more the old man would have added it to his reasons when talking to the police. The last time he had called them was almost 3 yrs ago. Local neighbors are now coming forward and describing the man as "odd" and that he was often "fueding" with all the kids in the neighborhood.

 

[Biker]

Did you just have a Miss Cleo moment, Penguin? How do you know these things?

Biker

 

[MechAg94]

Playboy, you to sit down an have a chill pill. You are reading far too much into posts on this thread and throwing around a lot of accusations. You don't know me and you certainly have no clue of my fatherly abilities. The way you talk, you seem to be implying that parents punishing kids mean they beat their kids. I think you are biased by your own experiences. My Dad believed in discipline, but all that ever happened to me was getting spanked (and never once in anger). Not all parents are child abusers.

My whole point was that you reap what you sow. You take responsibility for your actions. The old man obviously knows this as you can tell by the way he talked when he called 911. He just told them what he did and that he snapped. He didn't try to say the kid attacked him or anything. Obviously, he had a temper, but he was at least willing to admit what he did. He'll get a lot of prison time and he deserves it. I have yet to see a post on this thread where anyone said he should get off free.

Also, I have no reason to assume he was lying. I assume the kid was a punk. With a history of seeing stories of kids committing crimes or getting shot or getting in trouble, almost 100% of the time the kids have a long history of bad behavior. I am not going to lie to myself or try to fool myself into believing that all kids are little angels. I was a kid and I was no angel even though I was better behaved that most.

 

[secamp32]

@ 10 years ago

My mother had a problem with HS kids cutting thru her yard to and from school. She asked them to stop but they didn't. So I put up a small chicken wire fence. The rotton little brats knocked it down. One day after that I followed one of the kids home and rang the bell and spoke to the boys mother. She was rude and cursted at me. We put up bigger fence. Problem solved.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

MechAg94

I can tell enough from your response of blaming the child that was shot. Your words and attitude speaks volumes. It is bad enough to even make such as statement but then to try and defend and justify takes alot. And I am not sure how you turned this towards "beating" a child. That is quite some disconnect there.

 

[Justin]

Closed.

This thread is, to repeat the recently famous quote, "Stuck on stupid."