Steel ammo (Wolf) for my DPMS?

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I have seen those huge wide magnets with wheels pickup pounds at the time.
I meant for those reloaders that want actual brass recovery so when you go in the woods to play around you don't care bout loosing the cases. It is pain specially in the Autumn/winter. For those plinking and similar situations the steel is ideal.
Otherwise at a range is simple, a good magnet or just take the broom and the bucket and done. The magnet is a great idea to keep the dust undisturbed as in the range is not the best thing to be creating too much dust due to the lead and other chemicals in all the dust.
In any case when using the bench or prone I shoot very slowly almost always. A different thing is when I am doing a defensive drill or training for that I stick to brass too, occasionally I use steel with some systems.
There is no really any benefit (not even cost) for me on the steel as I have a very efficient and fast Dillon progressive reloader for the .223 55-96gr loads and pistol.
For the rest is all top end ammo or single stage handloads developed for the specific purpose.
 
I suggest the Silver bear, even though it's a little more money. It's zinc plated steel instead of polymer. Not that there's anything wrong with the polymer, just that the silver bear, AND MFS if you can find it, is a higher quality ammo with cleaner powder, and seems to be much more accurate. Plus; I can buy the MFS 62 grain SOFT POINT from Weaponsworld.com for $239 SHIPPED for 1000 rounds. http://www.weaponsworld.com/shootin...oint-zinc-plated-steel-case-1000-rd-case.html With 62 grain SOFT POINT, you get an all around perfect ammo. It's steel case, meaning inexpensive; it's a good middle weight so it works perfect in ALL barrel twists; it's a SOFT POINT, so it can be used for plinking, hunting, varmints, and home defense. And the shipped price comes to $4.80 per box of 20. And weaponsworld.com is a great company.

Silver bear 62 grain soft point is all the same, but will cost about a dollar more per box. Right now, you're not going to find any soft point for this type of price. Oh, plus another + for soft point. You don't have that steel bi-metal that some people complain about for starting fires, or that an indoor range won't let you shoot. They all let you shoot soft points. Plus; many targets, metal and resealable, don't recommend hollow points or FMJ, but love soft points. Telling you; weaponsworld.com 62 grain soft points, $239 for 1000 SHIPPED. Or $139 for 500 SHIPPED. Can't beat it.
 
christcorp said:
I suggest the Silver bear, even though it's a little more money. It's zinc plated steel instead of polymer. Not that there's anything wrong with the polymer, just that the silver bear, AND MFS if you can find it, is a higher quality ammo with cleaner powder, and seems to be much more accurate.
Click to expand...

Christcorp I agree with you on most things steel case, but in my experience what you have written there is wrong. The only difference between the Brown Bear and Silver (and Gold, come to that) is the case (in like for like bullet variants - 55gr FMJ/JHP, 62 FMJ/JHP, etc). And Brown Bear is the green "lacquer" case, not polymer. The new Wolf WPA is Polymer cased, but is now produced at Barnaul alongside the "Bear" stuff, and that is in a polymer case. And "MFS" is simply the same ammo as Silver Bear in different packaging. While MFS is a Hungarian firm, this line is imported from barnaul then re-exported here. Not sure what its like now, but I got some early MFS with the Barnaul headstamp on the cases. They may have their own on their now, but that is easily done in the originating factory.

The whole point with shooting this cheap ammo is exactly that - cheap. So if your rifle has no issues with the Brown Bear lacquer or WPA polymer, there is no point at all in paying an extra $20 or so for a shiny zinc case which is actually more prone to adverse weather effect (it oxidizes).

ETA - one thing with the Silver Bear line, however, is that you get a wider choice of bullet - the softpoints as well - which I don't believe they do in the "Brown" variant.

Heretic - yep, that Tula stuff - total bottom rung; inconsistent ****. I have shot a bit of it and I noticed I quite easily feel through the rifle the difference in individual rounds -a lot of extra weak rounds per box. With the Bear ammo (and as of last year, the WPA), as well as being hotter from the get go, the loading seems much more consistent.
 
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I prefer the soft points in MFS. "They are cheaper than silver bear". There's a lot more uses for a soft point than the fmj/hp. As for accuracy, I have found the 62 grain MFS/Silver Bear to be more accurate than the brown bear. Each rifle has it's own personality, and for mine, "Both the AR's and the Saiga's", the MFS is more accurate. Maybe it's the 62 grain. "All my other steel case ammo is 55 grain".

As for cleaner, maybe it seats and expands better. Normally, I can shoot about 200-300 rounds of Brown Bear, and then I'll purposely shoot a magazine of brass ammo such as PMC bronze. Usually; the first 6-8 rounds of the brass will show chamber residue from the brown bear. After about 8 rounds, there's little to no more residue. "I actually use this method as a "PRE-CLEANING". Basically, I shoot a mag of brass after every 200-300 rounds. Anyway; after shooting MFS, I usually see chamber residue on the PMC for about 4-5 rounds. Maybe it seats/expands better. Not sure.

As for the price, the extra $20 per thousand that I'm paying for, isn't because it's Zinc Plated. It's because it's Soft Points. And I'll definitely pay $0.40 more per box of 20 for soft points. Unfortunately, Weaponsworld.com doesn't sell silver bear, just MFS for steel case ammo. Most places will charge about $1 per box more for silver bear compared to brown bear. Even for FMJ. I am not suggesting that. This is why I am suggesting Weaponsworld.com. The FMJ and the Soft Point is the exact same price. Again, I'm paying the $20 more per case, because it's soft point, and not FMJ/HP. I find Soft Point at $4.80 per box (Shipped), too good a deal to pass up.
 
I personally think that Barnaul makes the best steel case ammo along with Norinco, but of course that is the ammo I use in my AK and SKS.
 
Heretic,
NO!
Bi-metal doesn't mean that the entire core might be made out of steel, it means soft steel is used in the core or inside jacket many times along with lead too.
Bi-Metal (two-metal) used in Russian load mean the bullet has a copper jacket over the steel. This has more penetration and also it is cheaper to produce bullets.
The copper keeps the steel bullet jacket from touching the bore and also from rusting.
Several methods are used, including cold swagging and gilding but the goal of Russian ammo is to keep the manufacturing cost down while providing adequate performance.
Do not worry bout wear more than you would do with other military bullets but when going plinking and playing in the woods with steel core bullets beware of the higher ricochet potential of this bullet construction.
Cheers.
 
I've been shooting a lot of steel cased Russian .223 over the last year and I've shot thousands of rounds of 9mm Silver Bear. I've never had any issue with the 9mm and have used it in several different 9mm's.
Almost all of the Russian .223 I've shot has been Brown Bear, Silver Bear or Tula. I've probably shot about 500 rnds of Wolf through my AR's without any issues until.....yesterday.
I was shooting a very dirty BCM midlength (3rd range trip w/out a cleaning) and had shot about 200 rnds of various brands of .223 and 5.56mm that day. Anyway...a Wolf case got stuck in the chamber. This is the first time for any of my AR's (3) and I shoot a lot of steel cased ammo.
Guess what?
It took me 5 minutes to find my cleaning rod and punch it out. It took another 5 minutes to clean the chamber and I was good to go for the rest of the day.
I'll keep shooting all of the steel cased stuff for fun. It's saved me a lot of money and a couple of minutes of inconvenience is not that big of a deal to cut my ammo bill in half. I wouldn't trust the Russian stuff for anything serious but then again I don't currently have a serious use for my AR's.
 
For those 'out of spec' chambers, you mean....? :)

I have a 223 Wylde SS Lilja barrel on one of mine that has no trouble with steel case ammo (yes, I know sacriligious shooting crap ammo from that barrel, but if it can shoot it fine...anything should).

Re your recommendation on PMC....in my experience the accuracy on that is no better than the Russian. Sure, you can reload the brass, but as a regular round, I'd personally not waste my money.
 
PMC is underpower round vs a NATO spec / LC round but addecuate at 2850 fps-2900fps. But it is pretty consistent, more than the Russian ones.
I have barrels that like it better and some others less so you have to try it to see what you get. On average it can be a tad more accurate than some steel due to its consistency, I would say pretty close. The brass is great though.
What I like of the less speed is that it saves barrel life for practice while it makes an adequate round for target, varmints, and many other uses. The difference in speed doesn't mean much in many average situations these rounds can be used. Still adequate for defense in moderate range and are very clean burning and good brass.
I have measured the spreads in different barrels and lengths of all the major ammo manufacturers if anyone is interested.
Cheers.
E.
 
I hate to admit it but I shot a couple of boxes of Wolf 55gr HPs on Sunday. They were very accurate. In fact, they were more accurate than some more expensive rounds I shot the same day. Having said that, the PMC FMJ 55gr shot a .4 inch group. They are a little more expensive but I have the brass I can reload.
 
I shoot steel almost exclusively. From what I've read it's more likely to wear out an extractor or bcg a bit quicker than shooting brass. Therefore I figured that the $100 or so I save shooting steel will not only pay for a new bcg but I'll save some extra as well. However if I have the chance to take a class then I'll use brass for that but for plinking steel is all I can afford to shoot.
 
Sig88 said:
I shoot steel almost exclusively. From what I've read it's more likely to wear out an extractor or bcg a bit quicker than shooting brass. Therefore I figured that the $100 or so I save shooting steel will not only pay for a new bcg but I'll save some extra as well. However if I have the chance to take a class then I'll use brass for that but for plinking steel is all I can afford to shoot.
Click to expand...
The steel case doesn't come in contact with the BCG. Just the bolt extractor. And an extractor, at the very worst case scenario, costs $5.00. Personally, I've seen a lot of steel case ammo shot, and I've never seen any cause an extractor to break. I've heard some stories, but after getting more info from the individuals, I concluded either A) They were FOS, or B) Based on some of their other issues, even with brass, that their extract or bolt was faulty and was going to break no matter what. This goes back to some people simply refuse to believe that their rifle could ever have problems. That it has to be the ammo.

It is a fact that some rifles simply don't like shooting steel case .223. Unfortunately, it's the rifle's fault. But it's not worth replacing the BCG and/or correcting the chamber. The payback on the money you'd spend, wouldn't be worth the savings. Unless of course you are shooting in the 5,000-10,000 round range per year. I easily shoot 5,000 rounds (I've already shot 4,000 in just 6 months), and even if I took the low count of 5,000 rounds a year, on the very low end, I will save minimum of $500 in one year. That's using an average of a $2 per box savings. Me personally, I'm sure I'm closer to saving around $750-$1000 between shooting more than 5,000 rounds, and probably saving more than the $2 per box. But I'll stick with the low side. It's still quite significant of a savings.

Now for many people, shooting is even less of a hobby. They get out there and shoot 100 rounds per month, AND THAT'S PUSHING IT. For them, they should just go to walmart or their local hardware store and buy the 100 round pack for $40. That's $8 a box of 20 at walmart, but these people aren't going to buy in bulk online anyway, so they aren't going to save much on the steel case. Tula at Walmart is $4.97. So they save $3 a box. That's only a $15 savings for one month of shooting. At our local hardware store, at least 5-6 times a year, they have their PMC Bronze on sale for $6.49. Those who don't shoot much should just wait for those sales and buy about 20 boxes. That will last them for quite a few months.

As long as you get to know your rifle, you'll know if it will shoot anything, no matter what the ammo; e.g. S&W M&P15-OR. Or if it needs you to clean your weapon more often in order to shoot steel case ammo. All my weapons are potential home defense weapons. And because I use ammo like Hornady TAP FPD, and it's brass, I clean my M&P15-OR after each outing. Just in case, I don't want a brass case getting a little sticky in the chamber after I've fired 300-400 rounds.
 
All great points. I personally haven't experienced any problems with my rifle, except for my very first magazine which was wolf (however I believe it was user error). So far I haven't experienced any problems bit I have only put about 500 rounds of wolf through my current rifle.

I liked to look at worse case scenario so if I only have to spend $5 for a fix works for me. However, thinking that the bcg may fail leaves me more likely buy a spare bcg just in case. I don't shoot as much as I'd like so the AR only sees anywhere from 2-500 rounds a month. I still like to buy in bulk though cause I like the big savings. Ideally I would love to have 10k rounds socked away just to have and shoot piecemeal.
 
Totally agree with Christcorp there - in my own "testing" of tens of thousands of steel case rounds, I have not broken an extractor. If there is any additional wear on the extractor caused by steel cases, it is so minimal that it is irrelevant, and should you have an extractor break at some point, you will never ever be able to pin it on the fact that the steel cases were to blame. As Christcorp says, chances are it would've broken regardless of ammo type, brass or steel.
 
Sig; the BCG can't break because of the ammo. Not unless the ammo was loaded so hot that it blew the BCG back with too much force. And the one thing we'll ALL AGREE ON, is that steel case russian ammo is NOT TOO HOT. If you've ever pulled out your BCG, you'll see that it's impossible for the BCG to come into contact with the steel case ammo. WORSE case scenario, which I don't buy, would be the entire bolt itself. And even if that happened, it's only a $50 replacement cost for a bolt. $5 for an extractor. $125 for the ENTIRE BCG with a new bolt and firing pin.

As Kwanger said, some of us have been pumping out a lot of steel case ammo. And we've never seen an extractor break because of a steel case. let along the entire bolt.

Your gun is either chambered properly, and can shoot steel case ammo, or it isn't. If it is, then you can shoot all the steel case ammo you want, and it's not going to cause any problems. If your rifle isn't chambered properly, it will either have a chamber that is too tight, and it cause some stuck cases; usually brass cases after shooting a lot of steel cases, because of the powder residue/blowback. Or, you have a timing issue, and you are tearing part of the rim of the shell off. This is because your rifle is trying to extract the shell before it's had a chance to start the contraction process after expanding. "Yes, steel case do expand". The easiest fix for this is a heavier/slower buffer or heavier buffer spring. This problem also happens with brass cases too, and is usually easier to detect.

But if you can run 200 rounds of steel case ammo through your rifle, without issues, then your rifle can run it, and there won't be ANY DAMAGE because of steel case ammo. Then you just have to decide how often you want to clean it out. If you plan on using the AR as a potential home defense weapon, i would suggest cleaning the weapon; mainly the chamber; after you're done shooting steel case for the day. No sense of taking a chance with a brass round expanding and getting stuck on the powder blowback/grime. At the very least, simply run a 20 round magazine of brass ammo after every 200-300 rounds of steel core. You'll notice the first 5-6 rounds of brass will expand and collect quite a bit of the residue from the steel case blowback. After that, most of the residue is gone, and you can sit there and shoot brass till the cows come home. This is my normal procedure. If I didn't shoot at least 500 rounds of steel case that day, I'll just finish my shooting for the day with a 20 or 30 round mag of brass ammo. By the end of that mag, I feel quite confident that the AR will be clean and ready for me to leave a hot live 20 round mag with TAP ammo in it.
 
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