storing a beretta 92 with slide locked open harmful to the gun?

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bullseyebob47

bullseyebob47

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thats all i want to discuss but i will give reason cause everyone will ask why. please don't make the topic about the reason why. ok?

reason: after years of asking my mother to take the beretta 92 for hd, she finally did. she has shot a .22lr revolver decades ago but will not shoot the beretta. she will not store it with a round in the chamber.(grand kids) she flicks the safety on when racking the slide. its a mess. so i just lock the slide back and all she has to do is put the mag in and hit the slide release then shoot. i know this is very far from ideal but its all im gonna get.
 
According to the experts, working a spring doesn't do much damage, unless -- when worked -- the spring is pushed to its elastic limit -- the point beyond which it was designed to function. If the spring is KEPT near or at that limit (stretched or compressed) it will degrade. That degradation will occur more quickly than if it's just worked normally, as when cycling the slide as the gun is shot.

In theory, locking back the slide for a Model 92 (or almost any semi-auto) for extended periods, will leave the recoil spring almost stacked, and will likely cause spring damage.

In an earlier discussion here (or on The Firing Line), a National Guardsman talked about NCOIC in charge of his unit's weapons left all of the M9 stored with the slides locked back over much of the Winter, and nearly all of them had to have their recoil springs replaced in the Spring. On other forums, guys who have begun using suppressors/silencers on some handguns find that the recoil springs are too strong with the devices attached and some leave the slide locked back for a few weeks and try again. They generally find the recoil springs slightly weakened and the gun then functions with the suppressors/silencers installed.

In the case of the OP's mother -- maybe get an extra spring to have on hand and check the gun at the range from time to time. If the gun doesn't cycle properly after a prolong period of being left open, replace the recoil spring and order a new one.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
According to the experts, working a spring doesn't do much damage, unless -- when worked -- the spring is pushed to its elastic limit -- the point beyond which it was designed to function. If the spring is KEPT near or at that limit (stretched or compressed) it will degrade. That degradation will occur more quickly than if it's just worked normally, as when cycling the slide as the gun is shot.

In theory, locking back the slide for a Model 92 (or almost any semi-auto) for extended periods, will leave the recoil spring almost stacked, and will likely cause spring damage.

In an earlier discussion here (or on The Firing Line), a National Guardsman talked about NCOIC in charge of his unit's weapons left all of the M9 stored with the slides locked back over much of the Winter, and nearly all of them had to have their recoil springs replaced in the Spring. On other forums, guys who have begun using suppressors/silencers on some handguns find that the recoil springs are too strong with the devices attached and some leave the slide locked back for a few weeks and try again. They generally find the recoil springs slightly weakened and the gun then functions with the suppressors/silencers installed.

In the case of the OP's mother -- maybe get an extra spring to have on hand and check the gun at the range from time to time. If the gun doesn't cycle properly after a prolong period of being left open, replace the recoil spring and order a new one.
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If that is in fact true, and I'm not saying it isn't, then magazines shouldn't be loaded for long periods of time either, or at least not at full capacity.
 
I have an old Daisy SoftAir Model 59, a replica of the S&W of the same model designation. This gun fires AirSoft pellets, but it fires them from fake "brass cases" that then eject from the port. The mechanism is spring-piston; pushing the slide closed against the spring cocks the gun. When it's fired, the slide snaps rearward, and must then be forced forward for a next shot.

I had that gun stowed away for probably 20-25 years, with the slide closed (spring compressed.) When I finally found some of the "brass" in my old gun box, I dug out the gun. I found no evidence that the spring suffered from being compressed all those years. It may have, but I couldn't tell.
 
If that is in fact true, and I'm not saying it isn't, then magazines shouldn't be loaded for long periods of time either, or at least not at full capacity.
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It depends entirely on the magazine and whether the magazine spring is pushed to or beyond it's limits.

Seven-round 1911 magazines can be left fully loaded for decades -- because those springs aren't pushed anywhere near their limits. (The springs will still deteriorate, but the amount of degradation is so little that the gun will probably die before the mag springs do...) Most hi-cap mags are probably OK, too, but a few (maybe 18+ round 9mm hi-caps) mags will show spring fatigue more quickly than mags holding fewer rounds.

On another forum, one of the moderators is an air gun enthusiast, and he periodically posts links to the experts from that discipline, which -- depending on the design of the gun and how the springs are used -- often push springs to their elastic limits. With these high-end "specialist" air guns, all spring powered (and most of them are designed to really compress the springs as much as possible), it's a NO-NO to leave the weapon cocked!

I don't think I've ever had to replace a magazine spring in a 10-round full-size magazine, but I have had to replace a few 6-7 round mag springs in some Kahrs, and a number of springs in some 16+ round high-cap mags. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever had to replace a Glock mag spring, and some of those were 17 rounders. And while I don't generally leave all mags loaded, I do leave my carry weapon and home defense weapons FULLY loaded; I just shoot them periodically to check function.

(In MedWheeler's response, the issue isn't whether the spring can remain cocked for 20+ years without deterioration, but whether that same spring, when cocked, is pushed to or near its elastic limit. A (7-round) 1911 mag left fully loaded can last 60+ years without noticeable deterioration, and it may be that a Daisy air gun spring is also not being pushed to it's limits when left cocked.)

I think that leaving a Beretta 92 with the slide locked back MIGHT cause recoil spring deterioration -- but have no idea about how long it would take for that springs to be unable to feed the next round.
 
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460Shooter said:
If that is in fact true, and I'm not saying it isn't, then magazines shouldn't be loaded for long periods of time either, or at least not at full capacity.
Click to expand...
IME, springs, particularly mag springs quality tends to vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer. I would advise that, upon finding a bad spring, consider a Wolff
replacement.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
I think that leaving a Beretta 92 with the slide locked back MIGHT cause recoil spring deterioration -- but have no idea about how long it would take for that springs to be unable to feed the next round.
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Ok. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for clarifying Walt.
 
What about the hammer spring? That will also be compressed during storage with the slide back.
 
ny32182 said:
Gun will be fine.

Forcing it on someone who doesn't want it, and doesn't manipulate it well, in any form, may be a different story.
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I agree. The firearm will not be the weak link in this course of action.

OP, can this lady not physically rack the slide if she doesn't want to keep a round in the chamber? If she has problems racking the slide, then she needs a different pistol or even a revolver for the job.

Sorry to be blunt but semi-auto pistols are not meant to be stored in this manner. Nobody does this, for good reason.
 
LUCKYDWG13 said:
A spring gets weak from use not by compression
Click to expand...

Do you have ANY EVIDENCE to support that claim? There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, available from various sites on the internet, and other technical sources.

When a spring is compressed to it's limits, and kept there, the strain of being in that state leads to small micro-fractures in the spring material. The longer the spring is kept at that level of use (at or near its design limit), the more likely a micro-fracture is to occur -- and once it starts, the remaining spring materials has to take over the load -- and failure hastens. Just cycling alone doesn't always have the same effect, because the "strain" isn't a great (i.e., time-related), even when the compression or stretch is to the same degree.

NOTE: IF springs wore out primarily by use, tappet springs in car engines would be examples of common spring failures -- but the don't fail often, if at all. Most of those tappet springs will cycle many, many millions of times during the engine's service life. (Tappet springs are part of an engine design that never pushes the springs beyond their design limits.)

Working the spring CAN make the spring weak -- but for well-designed spring applications, done with quality materials, springs wear out primarily when they're compressed or stressed BEYOND or very near their design limits. In many cases, the springs will outlive the gun.

There are exceptions. Take the Rohrbaugh R9, the smallest 9mm available for a long time. That recoil spring handles the same round as any other 9mm, and does it with a smaller slide in a smaller gun. The recoil spring for that gun had a recommended service life of only 250 cycles. Why so few cycles? Because the spring has to do more work with less materials, and fit in a smaller space to meet the gun's design goals. And that meant that spring had to be compressed fully with each cycle. The recoil springs for most compact and sub-compact versions of a basic model will have much shorter service lives than the larger versions of the same gun -- but they're cycling the same rounds.

RA40 said:
What about the hammer spring? That will also be compressed during storage with the slide back.
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Generally speaking, the hammer spring of most guns isn't a small spring being forced into a very small space. There's generally a lot of reserve left in the spring when it's fully cocked. (There may be exceptions in some of the smaller guns.) Note, too, that when a hammer is cocked you can, with most SA or DA/SDA guns, still pull the hammer back farther when DECOCKING it. There's reserve built in!

Guns like the 1911 and the Browning High Power have been carried cocked & locked for years, and you just don't hear about hammer spring failures in those models. Just because a spring is compressed or stretched it doesn't mean that spring has been pushed to or beyond it's design limits. Some recoil springs ARE compressed to or past their limit when the slide is fully to the rear.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
Do you have ANY EVIDENCE to support that claim? There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, available from various sites on the internet, and other technical sources.

When a spring is compressed to it's limits, and kept there, the strain of being in that state leads to small micro-fractures in the spring material. The longer the spring is kept at that level of use (at or near its design limit), the more likely a micro-fracture is to occur -- and once it starts, the remaining spring materials has to take over the load -- and failure hastens. Just cycling alone doesn't always have the same effect, because the "strain" isn't a great (i.e., time-related), even when the compression or stretch is to the same degree.

NOTE: IF springs wore out primarily by use, tappet springs in car engines would be examples of common spring failures -- but the don't fail often, if at all. Most of those tappet springs will cycle many, many millions of times during the engine's service life. (Tappet springs are part of an engine design that never pushes the springs beyond their design limits.)

Working the spring CAN make the spring weak -- but for well-designed spring applications, done with quality materials, springs wear out primarily when they're compressed or stressed BEYOND or very near their design limits. In many cases, the springs will outlive the gun.

There are exceptions. Take the Rohrbaugh R9, the smallest 9mm available for a long time. That recoil spring handles the same round as any other 9mm, and does it with a smaller slide in a smaller gun. The recoil spring for that gun had a recommended service life of only 250 cycles. Why so few cycles? Because the spring has to do more work with less materials, and fit in a smaller space to meet the gun's design goals. And that meant that spring had to be compressed fully with each cycle. The recoil springs for most compact and sub-compact versions of a basic model will have much shorter service lives than the larger versions of the same gun -- but they're cycling the same rounds.



Generally speaking, the hammer spring of most guns isn't a small spring being forced into a very small space. There's generally a lot of reserve left in the spring when it's fully cocked. (There may be exceptions in some of the smaller guns.) Note, too, that when a hammer is cocked you can, with most SA or DA/SDA guns, still pull the hammer back farther when DECOCKING it. There's reserve built in!

Guns like the 1911 and the Browning High Power have been carried cocked & locked for years, and you just don't hear about hammer spring failures in those models. Just because a spring is compressed or stretched it doesn't mean that spring has been pushed to or beyond it's design limits. Some recoil springs ARE compressed to or past their limit when the slide is fully to the rear.
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I have no prof I never did a test Only what i have been told from tool makers But i do keep my Magazines loaded and never had a issue with them
 
Walt Sherrill said:
NOTE: IF springs wore out primarily by use, tappet springs in car engines would be examples of common spring failures -- but the don't fail often, if at all. Most of those tappet springs will cycle many, many millions of times during the engine's service life. (Tappet springs are part of an engine design that never pushes the springs beyond their design limits.)
Click to expand...

Tappet springs don't see any cycling once oil pressure is up. Valve springs, on the other hand, can see on the order of a quarter billion cycles per 100,000 miles with no appreciable decrease in performance. I've been wrenching for two decades, have worked on probably about 10,000 vehicles in that time (260 working days per year *avg. 2 vehicles per day), have replaced maybe two dozen broken valve springs during my career, usually on vehicles with considerably more than 100K miles.
 
Thanks for the correction. Valve springs are what I meant, not tappet springs. (My father was a mechanic; I didn't inherit his mechanical skills or vocabulary.)

JohnKSa, an engineer, air-gun enthusiast, and moderator on The Firing Line conducted a long-term mag spring test and showed that some high-cap mag springs, when left fully loaded, showed spring function loss in just a year's time -- I remember that a Ruger hi-cap showed the greatest spring power loss and a Glock hi-cap the least -- but all of the ones he tested still functioned properly. I don't know if that test continues.
 
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bullseyebob47 said:
thats all i want to discuss but i will give reason cause everyone will ask why. please don't make the topic about the reason why. ok?

reason: after years of asking my mother to take the beretta 92 for hd, she finally did. she has shot a .22lr revolver decades ago but will not shoot the beretta. she will not store it with a round in the chamber.(grand kids) she flicks the safety on when racking the slide. its a mess. so i just lock the slide back and all she has to do is put the mag in and hit the slide release then shoot. i know this is very far from ideal but its all im gonna get.
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Well I am going to ask why the Beretta 92? It is a large, heavy gun with a long trigger reach. But if you are determined to arm her with the 92...

Have Mom try this technique;

My wife has carpal tunnel in both of her wrists. Try as hard as she can she can not pull the slide back far enough to chamber a round.

HOWEVER she discovered that she can hold the slide in her right hand, grip and PUSH the frame forward with her left hand easily and pain free. She brought a S&W M&P 1.0 17 round 9mm and loves shooting it. She now wants to go shooting with me.

If it is possible for you have Mom try the S&W M&P with the small rear grip insert. The gun is much lighter than the 92 and the grip size is adjustable. With 17 rounds she is not giving anything up to the 92.

fyi; The Beretta 92 is my primary edc.
 
I'm always amazed no matter how clear an OP makes his question and asks to stay on topic how the people posting just can't honor those requests.

Springs lose their efficiency when repeatedly compressed and released. You will do no harm to the springs leaving the pistol in the locked back position. No harm at all and no need to shoot the gun twice or more a year. This holds true for all the springs including the magazine spring.

Good luck and I hope the gun is never needed.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I'm always amazed no matter how clear an OP makes his question and asks to stay on topic how the people posting just can't honor those requests.

Springs lose their efficiency when repeatedly compressed and released. You will do no harm to the springs leaving the pistol in the locked back position. No harm at all and no need to shoot the gun twice or more a year. This holds true for all the springs including the magazine spring.
Click to expand...

The question asked by the first post in this discussion was "storing a beretta 92 with slide locked open harmful to the gun?"

The answer I offered was "MAYBE."

Despite your claim, not all springs will lose their efficiency when repeatedly compressed (or stretched) and released. It depends on HOW FAR they're compressed or stretched! Believe it or not, springs DO decline, if when compressed or stretched, the springs reach a point that meets or exceeds their design limits (which is called the springs' elastic limit.) If left in that compressed or stretched state, the damage -- which is micro-fractures in the steel's structure -- can cascade (accelerate). The same holds true of most materials -- wood, metal, plastic, glass, even rubber.

Does a Beretta 92 recoil spring, when locked back, reach that failure point? I don't know -- which is why I recommended having a spare recoil spring on hand -- and checking the gun's function from time to time (out back, if possible, or at a nearby range.) One participant (either here or on The Firing Line, a similar forum) claimed to have seen a number of such failures at his National Guard unit when the unit's M9s were stored (by the NCOIC of the armory) for an extended period with the slides locked back. That's not evidence -- it's anecdotal -- but it seemed a legitimate story.

We've discussed this topic here and on other forums, with some participants offering technical references and links to various professional sites where scientific details are available. We've even had a Metallurgist or two involved in the discussions, along with engineers who work with various metals in the aerospace industry. They all seem to agree: If a spring isn't pushed to it's limits it can continue to function (compressing or stretching and returning to a relaxed state) almost indefinitely, but if pushed or pulled too far, a spring can die quickly. That's why VALVE springs in cars almost never fail (often cycling for many, many millions of times over the engine's lifetime -- as used, they aren't pushed to or near their elastic limit), but the small recoil springs in a Rohrbaugh R9 has a recommended service life of about 250 shorts fired. (I'm sure they'll work for more than 250 rounds, but RELIABILITY is the key for a small, self-defense weapon, and why risk failure?) Those springs were clearly made small to allow for a smaller gun; the metal in those springs must do more with less materials, and they simply don't last as long.

That's why some hi-cap mag springs don't last as long as 7-round 1911 mag springs, which can be left fully loaded for 50-60 years without problems, and why Wolff Springs, in their FAQ area, recommends downloading hi-cap mags a round or two for long-term storage. (Not all hi-cap mag springs require downloading, but some might -- and Wolff suggests that practice for all hi-caps, erring on the side of longer spring life.)

If cycling alone wears out a spring, why does a R9 recoil spring die so quickly, while valve springs seem to last almost for ever?

Maybe not all recoil springs will degrade if the slide is locked to the rear, but some might.
 
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ArchAngelCD said:
I'm always amazed no matter how clear an OP makes his question and asks to stay on topic how the people posting just can't honor those requests.
Click to expand...

Stick around long enough and I will amaze you some more.

The O.P. original question has already been answered several times along with side trips discussing magazine and hammer springs.

The O.P. states that Mom "will not shoot the beretta. she will not store it with a round in the chamber.(grand kids) she flicks the safety on when racking the slide. its a mess." I am presenting them with a proven technique that eliminates his concerns about the strength and endurance of compression of the recoil spring and having the gun in a safer mode by having slide down on empty chamber when the Grandkids are around..
 
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