Strange characters taking pictures of my daughters and niece!!
- Thread starter Jick42
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45R
Member
Jick42
When I first recieved my digital camera the first place I went to was the park. It was a good place to learn all of the digital settings, "F-stops", Aperture settings and so forth. I pointed that lens at everyone and anything. I was worst than a foreign tourist
I got pictures of kids chasing squirrels, getting bit by ducks the whole nine yards. It was a hoot but I always made sure that if the kids were on the recieving end of the lens the parents were within an earshot.
Last thought:
The thought that they took off when you approached them is in itself a red flag but hey they are "Gothic" sterotypically makes them "Antisocial". Like you said you will more than likely see them again if they live in the same town. Did you make eye contact with them before they got into their vehicle?
When I first recieved my digital camera the first place I went to was the park. It was a good place to learn all of the digital settings, "F-stops", Aperture settings and so forth. I pointed that lens at everyone and anything. I was worst than a foreign tourist
I got pictures of kids chasing squirrels, getting bit by ducks the whole nine yards. It was a hoot but I always made sure that if the kids were on the recieving end of the lens the parents were within an earshot. Last thought:
The thought that they took off when you approached them is in itself a red flag but hey they are "Gothic" sterotypically makes them "Antisocial". Like you said you will more than likely see them again if they live in the same town. Did you make eye contact with them before they got into their vehicle?
Pedophiles take pictures of young children and swap them on the internet. While the pics themselves aren't suggestive these people get their jollies just looking at them. They always use digital cameras in case they're questioned by the police. Of course today almost everyone has a digital but the card can be erased quickly. A known pedophile caught with pics is not going to be a happy camper.
It's almost impossible to stop them except like it was mentioned, take your own pics making sure they notice you. They don't like to be seen out from under their rock.
If they're just cameraphiles then no harm, no foul either way.
It's almost impossible to stop them except like it was mentioned, take your own pics making sure they notice you. They don't like to be seen out from under their rock.
If they're just cameraphiles then no harm, no foul either way.
Jay Kominek
Member
Maybe you looked really pissed off and scary, and they decided that avoiding a confrontation was a good idea, as so many people on THR remind us all, regularly.
"once is accident, twice is coincidence, thrice is enemy action"
cracked butt
Member
Face it, you and your family are getting their picture taken several times a day without your permission and you probably don't care much about it. Every time you go to a bank, ATM, gas station, grocery store, traffic lights, or maybe even your workplace, you are being photographed or videotaped and you have zero recourse to stopping this, yet I think the rather small potential for abuse of these pictures in sinster ways exists.
If someone is photographing you or your kids, politely ask them to stop if you don't like it. You don't have a right to not have your picture taken in public.
If someone is photographing you or your kids, politely ask them to stop if you don't like it. You don't have a right to not have your picture taken in public.
burbanite
Member
Call the police.
Give them descriptions and an account of what happened. Who knows, you may not be the first to report them. If nothing comes of it then well and good, no harm done but if there happens to be a future incident then they already have some background.
I will never knowingly compromise my children's well being.
Give them descriptions and an account of what happened. Who knows, you may not be the first to report them. If nothing comes of it then well and good, no harm done but if there happens to be a future incident then they already have some background.
I will never knowingly compromise my children's well being.
Amish_Bill
Member
Hmmmm....
(assuming that you don't consider them an immediate threat to the well being of you and yours...)
Maybe just wave at them & smile? Just because they're acting silly and look wierd doesn't mean you can't be neighborly.
How they react to a smile & a wave will tell you more than how they react when confronted.
(assuming that you don't consider them an immediate threat to the well being of you and yours...)
Maybe just wave at them & smile? Just because they're acting silly and look wierd doesn't mean you can't be neighborly.
How they react to a smile & a wave will tell you more than how they react when confronted.
CannibalCrowley
Member
Sheesh, a lot of people here are awfully quick to call the police about people who are breaking no law whatsoever. So the same people advocating calling the police about a camera can't say anything about those who call the cops about a firearm being legally open carried (at least not without being hypocrites).
Holly76201
Member
Jick42,
I worked with child sex offenders as a parole officer a long time ago. Your and your wife's concern is NOT paranoia or overreaction. These people at the park may not have been predators, but they were behaving in the way predators behave. All parents need to be vigilant at all times. A child can be snatched in a brief moment while a parent is looking at something across the park or engaged in conversation.
The look or dress of the guys in this particular case makes no difference. Predators come in a variety of guises and disguises. Trust NO stranger. Especially one taking pictures of your children. Pedophiles [just a fancy word IMO, for toxic waste] often take pix in public of their preferred victim "type". If these guys were legit photography students, I think they would have approached the parents for permission and to allay any fears they might have. And don't give me that "it's legal to take pictures in public" line. It may well be legal, but if it's my grandaughter, it's gonna be darn dangerous!
I worked with child sex offenders as a parole officer a long time ago. Your and your wife's concern is NOT paranoia or overreaction. These people at the park may not have been predators, but they were behaving in the way predators behave. All parents need to be vigilant at all times. A child can be snatched in a brief moment while a parent is looking at something across the park or engaged in conversation.
The look or dress of the guys in this particular case makes no difference. Predators come in a variety of guises and disguises. Trust NO stranger. Especially one taking pictures of your children. Pedophiles [just a fancy word IMO, for toxic waste] often take pix in public of their preferred victim "type". If these guys were legit photography students, I think they would have approached the parents for permission and to allay any fears they might have. And don't give me that "it's legal to take pictures in public" line. It may well be legal, but if it's my grandaughter, it's gonna be darn dangerous!
Jick42:
If it arouses your suspicions, act upon them.
I have a two year old daughter. I take her to the playground alot. When I see anybody - photography or not - who seems hinky I start to get nervous.
No person and no law has a higher concern for the safety and well-being of your family than you.
Confront them with all the authority adulthood and fatherhood brings. Ask them not to photograph the children in your family. I don't mean with hostility or with a drawn weapon. I mean as a citzen of your community. You'll get an idea from their response to you whay they are all about.
If you don't want to do that (and even if you do) let the cops know. You say you are in small town. Be known in your community as one who is looking out for your own.
Holly76201: Your post is dead on.
A while ago my wife heard an interview on the radio with an ex-cop/investigator who dealt with kid-related crimes and susequently wrote a book. He backed up my feelings that playgrounds are very dangerous places for kids. Mostly women and kids, rarely cops around. Bad guys can feel very safe there.
And don't let your kids ever go into a playground bathroom with you having checked it out first! That goes for your wife, too! And that goes for highway rest stop bathrooms!
As good fathers and husbands, we are in charge of the welfare of our families.
Frank Einstein
If it arouses your suspicions, act upon them.
I have a two year old daughter. I take her to the playground alot. When I see anybody - photography or not - who seems hinky I start to get nervous.
No person and no law has a higher concern for the safety and well-being of your family than you.
Confront them with all the authority adulthood and fatherhood brings. Ask them not to photograph the children in your family. I don't mean with hostility or with a drawn weapon. I mean as a citzen of your community. You'll get an idea from their response to you whay they are all about.
If you don't want to do that (and even if you do) let the cops know. You say you are in small town. Be known in your community as one who is looking out for your own.
Holly76201: Your post is dead on.
A while ago my wife heard an interview on the radio with an ex-cop/investigator who dealt with kid-related crimes and susequently wrote a book. He backed up my feelings that playgrounds are very dangerous places for kids. Mostly women and kids, rarely cops around. Bad guys can feel very safe there.
And don't let your kids ever go into a playground bathroom with you having checked it out first! That goes for your wife, too! And that goes for highway rest stop bathrooms!
As good fathers and husbands, we are in charge of the welfare of our families.
Frank Einstein
Dionysusigma
Member
I have no children of my own, but all of these posts are good advice that I'd follow if I did.
In light of this, I'd advise carrying another addition to your everyday SD stuff (pocket knife, CCW, cell phone, etc.)--a disposable 35mm camera. Six bucks, and if you notice somebody taking pictures again, start snapping your own of them immediately. In a sense, use their own rights "against" them. It's one heck of a lot easier to develop a set of pictures than trying to give a police officer a description of the suspect when you're under a ton of emotional stress (in case this situation turns for the worse).
A camera is also useful for getting a good copy of their license plate if your memory is not so good (like me). Don't go for one of those cheap $20.00 Wal-Mart digital ones, as their resolution is so bad the camera ain't worth the materials of which it's made. For those, you also have to remember to have working batteries, also not good for those with bad memory.
Hope this helps...
In light of this, I'd advise carrying another addition to your everyday SD stuff (pocket knife, CCW, cell phone, etc.)--a disposable 35mm camera. Six bucks, and if you notice somebody taking pictures again, start snapping your own of them immediately. In a sense, use their own rights "against" them. It's one heck of a lot easier to develop a set of pictures than trying to give a police officer a description of the suspect when you're under a ton of emotional stress (in case this situation turns for the worse).
A camera is also useful for getting a good copy of their license plate if your memory is not so good (like me). Don't go for one of those cheap $20.00 Wal-Mart digital ones, as their resolution is so bad the camera ain't worth the materials of which it's made. For those, you also have to remember to have working batteries, also not good for those with bad memory.
Hope this helps...
odysseus
Member
A long thread on something to me that seems basic...
If they are stalking and purposely attempting to hunt photos of them without any legitimate context for this, and the girls feel threatened by this - this is actionable and should be forwarded post haste to law enforcement. Should anything in the future happen, you would have an attempt to stop this activity recorded and processed legitimately.
To compare this with paparazzi following stars is very incorrect. Yes it is legal to take pictures in public places. Sure fine. It is not however legal to follow and stalk out of no legit context. There is now even plenty of case law coming out about people trying to take pictures of girls to put online that has been prevented. Paparazzi are also licensed photo journalists. If you were someone off the street trying to do what they do - you could find yourself in some heat.
Lean on the side of safety.
If they are stalking and purposely attempting to hunt photos of them without any legitimate context for this, and the girls feel threatened by this - this is actionable and should be forwarded post haste to law enforcement. Should anything in the future happen, you would have an attempt to stop this activity recorded and processed legitimately.
To compare this with paparazzi following stars is very incorrect. Yes it is legal to take pictures in public places. Sure fine. It is not however legal to follow and stalk out of no legit context. There is now even plenty of case law coming out about people trying to take pictures of girls to put online that has been prevented. Paparazzi are also licensed photo journalists. If you were someone off the street trying to do what they do - you could find yourself in some heat.
Lean on the side of safety.
RED-DOG 40
Member
Hmmm....
..
...They just might be from the planet "Goofytron" analyzing the smaller species of humanoids. In that case, it's time to contact "Nightcrawler" and associates. He will get to the bottom of it, lickety split.....
..But seriously, Holly76201 said it all. They are Your children and any gut feelings are pretty much legitament......
..
...They just might be from the planet "Goofytron" analyzing the smaller species of humanoids. In that case, it's time to contact "Nightcrawler" and associates. He will get to the bottom of it, lickety split..... ..But seriously, Holly76201 said it all. They are Your children and any gut feelings are pretty much legitament......
standingbear
Member
I dont have any daughters but I do have a son and am very protective of him.If I saw someone taking pictures of him playing at a park or in the backyard..there would be trouble.It wouldnt matter what they looked like..id prolly go to jail.so what if its legal...THEY WOULD BE EATING THE FILM.
CannibalCrowley
Member
standingbear
Charges:
1. Anything from assault to murder
2. Possession of a firearm during the commitment of a crime (if you have a CCW and such a statute in the area)
3. Destruction of property
4. More depending on the prosecuter
Does losing your freedom (including your RKBA) and possibly your life, sound like something you should risk just because you don't like the legal actions of another person? On another note, isn't this the kind of situation that causes some people to believe that letting people carry is too dangerous?
odysseus
Earlier in the thread I posted an article written by a lawyer which explains that it is perfectly legal to take pictures of ANYONE in a public place. If and how those pictures are published is a completely separate matter.
Charges:
1. Anything from assault to murder
2. Possession of a firearm during the commitment of a crime (if you have a CCW and such a statute in the area)
3. Destruction of property
4. More depending on the prosecuter
Does losing your freedom (including your RKBA) and possibly your life, sound like something you should risk just because you don't like the legal actions of another person? On another note, isn't this the kind of situation that causes some people to believe that letting people carry is too dangerous?
odysseus
Earlier in the thread I posted an article written by a lawyer which explains that it is perfectly legal to take pictures of ANYONE in a public place. If and how those pictures are published is a completely separate matter.
Cannibal, you forgot the ensung horde of lawsuits bought upon standingbear or his surviving family after he does something stupid.
For all the chest thumping and going on like antiscoial folks themselves, there is a lot more sound advice coming form the folks being a bit more level headed.
like folks said, nothing illegal was done, even if they send your psidey-sense a tingling, reacting in a manner inappropriate to that fact is going to make you the bad guy. If you love your kids, keep that in mind, because visiting hours at prison do not make for the best quality time. Being the good parent in this instance means being aware and looking out for your kids since the situation warrants. Not running around like an ass assaulting people.
Legally speaking, at the level this is going on, and since it does sound like it is a local park rather than something like a state park, is to document a pattern of behavior. This is because it may be the only thing they are doing wron (if anything). Call the police, or depending on the size of your town, drop by. They will likely check in periodically the next couple of days. Depending who they have living locally, they may request you come in an look at some mug shots. You pick any local sexual offenders, they are going to be getting a visit. If they gave you a really bad feeling, Take a camera and do your own passes on the park without the family. The rules on no expectation of privacy cut both ways and you can make use of that.
As fro confrontation, politely asking what they think they are doing might go a lot farther than storming over looking POed. I'll second the notion that you can tell a lot more about someone form how they react to a friendly greeting than a hostile approach. someone cutting and running from a wave and a smile is saying a lot more about themselves than someone doing the same from someone running up to you yelling and red in the face.
For all the chest thumping and going on like antiscoial folks themselves, there is a lot more sound advice coming form the folks being a bit more level headed.
like folks said, nothing illegal was done, even if they send your psidey-sense a tingling, reacting in a manner inappropriate to that fact is going to make you the bad guy. If you love your kids, keep that in mind, because visiting hours at prison do not make for the best quality time. Being the good parent in this instance means being aware and looking out for your kids since the situation warrants. Not running around like an ass assaulting people.
Legally speaking, at the level this is going on, and since it does sound like it is a local park rather than something like a state park, is to document a pattern of behavior. This is because it may be the only thing they are doing wron (if anything). Call the police, or depending on the size of your town, drop by. They will likely check in periodically the next couple of days. Depending who they have living locally, they may request you come in an look at some mug shots. You pick any local sexual offenders, they are going to be getting a visit. If they gave you a really bad feeling, Take a camera and do your own passes on the park without the family. The rules on no expectation of privacy cut both ways and you can make use of that.
As fro confrontation, politely asking what they think they are doing might go a lot farther than storming over looking POed. I'll second the notion that you can tell a lot more about someone form how they react to a friendly greeting than a hostile approach. someone cutting and running from a wave and a smile is saying a lot more about themselves than someone doing the same from someone running up to you yelling and red in the face.
itgoesboom
member
odysseus,
I am afraid you are very wrong there. I actually work as a freelance photojournalist, and there is absolutly no licensing necessary.
Sure, some counties hand out "press passes", which lets police and emergency crews know that the photographer is legit, and are often shown when you photograph at a public school-- something that happens often. They can sometimes be used to cross some police and fire lines. One county I used to work in did a background check. The State that I live in now does not issue credentials at all. Honestly, it is a first amendment issue, that the press don't need to be licensed. On one hand I actually prefered that photojournalists have the option of getting press passes from the police, but not require them. That can lend a certain amount of legitimacy when a photographer is working. But honestly, even when they are issued, we usually don't wear them.
Photojournalists will often times need to photograph kids. We do it pretty often, and sometimes it can be very uncomfortable for us, because many people don't know what we are doing, and there are often certain stigmas. But a real photojournalist will not do what was mentioned in the first part of the thread.
When I have to photograph kids, out on the street, in a park, etc, I will make a direct effort to find the parents first most of the time. Exceptions are during things like parades, where I will take a quick photo of kids interacting, and then I will approach the parents. If I can't find the parents, I either won't photograph, or I will find whoever is responsible for the kids at that time. Grandparents, friend, whoever. Either way, whenever I photograph kids, I am extremely cautious, and make sure everyone knows that I am there for a specific purpose.
Photojournalists also won't leave the scene if a parent comes over to talk to them. Our job has us interacting with the public on a daily basis, so we are used to explaining what we do, what we are looking for.
There is a possiblity that they were students, but I even doubt that. As mentioned before, when kids are taking photo classes in school (very popular classes usually), they are often times given specific assingments to get, many of those are candids, people on the street, kinds playing with pets, etc etc. Unfortunatly, most schools don't teach the kids how to interact with the public when they are taking photos.
If you see these kids taking photos of kids again, I would get a good description, a photo would be better. If you can approach, non aggresivly, I would, and try to talk to them. Find out if they are students. If they are, where. Call the school, talk to the photography professor, explain your concerns.
If they claim to be a staff photographer, they will have some sort of company ID most likely. If they are freelancing (like me), they may or may not have cards. I rarely carry cards anymore, since they never helped my business anyways, and they are just one more expense, and they don't prove anything anyways. If they are freelance, and you press them for confirmation, they should be able to provide you with the name of either an Editor, or another photographer that works for that publication, so that you can call and confirm that they do work for the paper.
Also, look at the gear they are using. A news photographer will likely have 2 or more large SLRs, often times digital, and a lenses. Usually the lenses, even the short ones will be fairly large, due to the speed of the lens. A pro 80-200 2.8 is much larger than a consumer 70-300 5.6.
I.G.B.
I am afraid you are very wrong there. I actually work as a freelance photojournalist, and there is absolutly no licensing necessary.
Sure, some counties hand out "press passes", which lets police and emergency crews know that the photographer is legit, and are often shown when you photograph at a public school-- something that happens often. They can sometimes be used to cross some police and fire lines. One county I used to work in did a background check. The State that I live in now does not issue credentials at all. Honestly, it is a first amendment issue, that the press don't need to be licensed. On one hand I actually prefered that photojournalists have the option of getting press passes from the police, but not require them. That can lend a certain amount of legitimacy when a photographer is working. But honestly, even when they are issued, we usually don't wear them.
Photojournalists will often times need to photograph kids. We do it pretty often, and sometimes it can be very uncomfortable for us, because many people don't know what we are doing, and there are often certain stigmas. But a real photojournalist will not do what was mentioned in the first part of the thread.
When I have to photograph kids, out on the street, in a park, etc, I will make a direct effort to find the parents first most of the time. Exceptions are during things like parades, where I will take a quick photo of kids interacting, and then I will approach the parents. If I can't find the parents, I either won't photograph, or I will find whoever is responsible for the kids at that time. Grandparents, friend, whoever. Either way, whenever I photograph kids, I am extremely cautious, and make sure everyone knows that I am there for a specific purpose.
Photojournalists also won't leave the scene if a parent comes over to talk to them. Our job has us interacting with the public on a daily basis, so we are used to explaining what we do, what we are looking for.
There is a possiblity that they were students, but I even doubt that. As mentioned before, when kids are taking photo classes in school (very popular classes usually), they are often times given specific assingments to get, many of those are candids, people on the street, kinds playing with pets, etc etc. Unfortunatly, most schools don't teach the kids how to interact with the public when they are taking photos.
If you see these kids taking photos of kids again, I would get a good description, a photo would be better. If you can approach, non aggresivly, I would, and try to talk to them. Find out if they are students. If they are, where. Call the school, talk to the photography professor, explain your concerns.
If they claim to be a staff photographer, they will have some sort of company ID most likely. If they are freelancing (like me), they may or may not have cards. I rarely carry cards anymore, since they never helped my business anyways, and they are just one more expense, and they don't prove anything anyways. If they are freelance, and you press them for confirmation, they should be able to provide you with the name of either an Editor, or another photographer that works for that publication, so that you can call and confirm that they do work for the paper.
Also, look at the gear they are using. A news photographer will likely have 2 or more large SLRs, often times digital, and a lenses. Usually the lenses, even the short ones will be fairly large, due to the speed of the lens. A pro 80-200 2.8 is much larger than a consumer 70-300 5.6.
I.G.B.
Tom Bri
Member
The school my girls go to sends us a report about once a month of all the places perverts have been reported in town. Flashers, guys who look up little girls skirts, things like that. So far I haven't heard anything more serious, but let me tell you I keep my eyes open when out with my kids. These people exist, they are dangerous, and any town will have a few.
I say pass the word around to all of the other Moms and Dads you meet. Ask them if they have seen anything like that, have everyone keeping a sharp eye out. You live in a small town, so if these kids are up to no good it should soon become common knowledge.
Ask the cops if they have heard any reports like this.
I say pass the word around to all of the other Moms and Dads you meet. Ask them if they have seen anything like that, have everyone keeping a sharp eye out. You live in a small town, so if these kids are up to no good it should soon become common knowledge.
Ask the cops if they have heard any reports like this.
I've worked as a reporter who had to take pictures occassionally and I've taken photojournalism courses in college. I never ask for permission before I take a picture of someone because the best picture I'll get is the one where the person doesn't know they are being photographed. This is especially true with kids.
Depending on the circumstances, I may or may not approach the subject afterwards. If I took the photo for a newspaper, and it's just a candid shot and not a breaking news piece, I'll need a name and address for the subject. If it's a commercial shot, I'll need a signed release as well or I can't use it commercially. But, if it's just a shot for my portfolio that I don't intend to publish, I won't always bother to get the contact info.
When I'm out taking pics I may not look like a National Geo shooter out on assignment, but I'm not hanging off of basketball hoops either.
Depending on the circumstances, I may or may not approach the subject afterwards. If I took the photo for a newspaper, and it's just a candid shot and not a breaking news piece, I'll need a name and address for the subject. If it's a commercial shot, I'll need a signed release as well or I can't use it commercially. But, if it's just a shot for my portfolio that I don't intend to publish, I won't always bother to get the contact info.
When I'm out taking pics I may not look like a National Geo shooter out on assignment, but I'm not hanging off of basketball hoops either.
Warren
Member
There is a breed of criminals that use telefoto lenses to take pictures up the skirts of women and children. They must have incredible patience but I guess the payoff is good enough.
When I was working as a reporter in Gardena Calif, there was a story of these guys who showed up at an amature model shoot and were arrested for just that thing.
Charges were eventually dropped due to the police failing a warrant to search the men's house.
odysseus
Member
...interesting. Think I learned a little more about the world of photo journalists. Most of the news types I have met (not much) have had a form of crendential. Certainly this doesn't apply to freelance types.
I took a photography class in college and wound up taking LOTS of pictures of folks just going about their daily buisiness. Kids never really interested me as subject matter for photography but, i can see how someone else would feel different in a perfectly NON perverted way.
However, i have found that pedophiles and weirdos in general usually come off as such when confronted. If you see these guys again try to talk to them and ask them whats up. If they strike you as OK and they have an answer that seems legitimate i would let them carry on but, keep an eye on them just in case. Should they have unsatisfactory answeres or just come off as miscreants i would strongly encourage them to go about their buisiness elsewhere and make sure to get a license plate when they leave.
However, i have found that pedophiles and weirdos in general usually come off as such when confronted. If you see these guys again try to talk to them and ask them whats up. If they strike you as OK and they have an answer that seems legitimate i would let them carry on but, keep an eye on them just in case. Should they have unsatisfactory answeres or just come off as miscreants i would strongly encourage them to go about their buisiness elsewhere and make sure to get a license plate when they leave.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What can we conclude from this discussion?
1. There is a threat. Children ARE taken or otherwise exploited, and this behavior fits into the pattern.
2. The law hasn't YET been broken, and the people taking the pictures MIGHT be perfectly innocent.
3. It would be a good idea to take THEIR pictures and a picture of their license plate and report to the police. Let them check it out.
4. If your state has a CHL law, get one and carry.
1. There is a threat. Children ARE taken or otherwise exploited, and this behavior fits into the pattern.
2. The law hasn't YET been broken, and the people taking the pictures MIGHT be perfectly innocent.
3. It would be a good idea to take THEIR pictures and a picture of their license plate and report to the police. Let them check it out.
4. If your state has a CHL law, get one and carry.
I have passed the word along to some of the other parents around my work place, so they are keeping an eye out as well. So, i will just keep my eyes peeled for awhile, and if i dont see them again, so be it. And if i do see them again, I have my Digital camera riding shotgun with me in the car.
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