My Daughter The Terrorist

Status
Not open for further replies.
Very little that's more stupid, stubborn and difficult to deal with than a little bureaucrat with a little bit of power. Been that way since the dawn of recorded history. Good luck.

The cargo compartment is pressurized the same as the passenger cabin, so pressure shouldn't be an issue. There are also smoke detectors and fire bottles there (cargo comp't). The devices that brough the ValueJet 757 mentioned above down were live oxygen generators which are actual explosive devices, not oxygen bottles.
 
Kentucky Rifle and TarpleyG,

The time-share I bought was through a client of mine who owns multiple Gulfstreams, Citations and a customized 727. He was in the aircraft brokerage business and got into the charter business years ago. Time-shares, like condos, were on the scene but not as popular as now since 911.

I've known this guy for 20 years and hang out at his hanger at PBIA. Even got some stick time in the right seat when I pursued my commercial, but never finished. His maintenance and pilots are great.

He has no problem with you carrying a gun on board as long as he knows you. Six of us went dove hunting in Texas last month and were comparing shotguns during the flight. (unloaded and safe) A really weird feeling the first time. A palovian reflex flying with out in the open guns. Went against the indoctrination they drilled into me over the years.
But his times shares are really kept to people he knows anyways.

There are more commercial time-shares and groups of say stock and commodity brokers that go together and by time.

It’s only worth it if you can schedule your flights or trips around certain times. Everyday business travelers with deadlines should stick to commercial flight. Regular jet charter service is big time expensive unless you have deep pockets.
 
Two ways to handle it Keith,

The Boy Scout way and the American Rebel method (but you know this already as you have alluded)

First is to suck it up and write a concilatory letter explaining the situation as it really existed and tell them that certainly no harm was intended, rather these were/are intended as gifts to friends, blah, blah, blah... thats the safe high road and will ease everyone's minds, especially if you ask them to put a good word in the personnel file of the employee who found the dastardly things (known as kissing bootie), thankless job, safety for all travelers, just doing their jobs, etc. etc. and asking them, maybe, for some clearly worded letter that they can give to all future travelers warning them of such acts...:scrutiny:

The hard way is to get a lawyer, write the letter, copy your congresspeople and senator and fight the good fight, knowing that you're tilting at windmills and that you, as well as any members of your family, will be subject to intense scrutiny from this point on for the rest of your life when traveling through their (TSA) area of bureaucratic authority... sigh

If I were you, I would not travel via air with any of your firearms from this point on. Your family has now been entered into their profile red-flag computer "System" and if its anything like the local police computer customer "System", once you're in it, death is the only way out. Maybe a presidential pardon would do... but I doubt it. It might be fun to test it out once or twice with some single barrel el cheapo 20 ga shotgun and see what the reactions are and the conditions you (and said shotgun) will face in reaching your destination, but I sure wouldn't want to travel carrying anything I'd spent any real money on.

Good luck and let us know what the bureaucratic response is to whatever your reply by endorsement is.

Adios
 
From the TSA website: * Up to 2 lighters and 4 books of safety matches are allowed in your carry-on baggage - NOT checked
baggage. Disposable lighters and absorbed liquid lighters are allowed in your carry-on baggage.
Lighters with unabsorbed liquid fuel and refillable butane lighters are NOT permitted. Strike anywhere
matches are NOT permitted.
Note Some personal care items containing aerosol are regulated as hazardous materials. The FAA
regulates hazardous materials. This information is summarized at http://asi.faa.gov/Passenger.asp

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_10_16_2003v2.pdf
 
Fellow SF writer Mercedes Lackey used to work for American Airlines, and is a vol firefighter. Her site is www.mercedeslackey.com


The regs against butane lighters in checked baggage have been there since
forever. They were there when I started working for AA---1982. You're also
not allowed spray insecticide or paint or anything that isn't a toiletry. It
used to be that you were also not supposed to carry pressurized containers of
anything---including shaving cream, perfume, hairspray, deodorant,
air=freshner, whipped cream.... They changed that: see

http://asi.faa.gov/docs/HAZMATByPassenger.pdf

Checking the first posting, it's clear that the violation was this Hazmat
code, not a security violation. A piece of idiocy perpetrated by a
bureaucrat looking for a gold star in his bunny-book, based on an outmoded
reg, but no big deal and the guy's daughter isn't going to get a "potential
terrorist" stamp on her passport.

Unfortunately, pleading ignorance isn't going to get them anywhere, since the
reg is "clearly" printed in all that microtype on your ticket....UNLESS
Daughter got an E-ticket! In which case, she CAN'T have been aware of the
reg, and that's the "extenuating circumstances"! "My daughter had an
electronic, not a paper ticket, and thus we had not seen and were unaware of
the regulation." Hell, if it was me, I'd just send that as an answer anyway
and make them prove that I didn't have an e-ticket.

I recall this particular piece of trivia because as non-revs (standby
passengers) we were expected to know and abide by ALL the stupid regs, no
matter how stupid. What was another odd one---oh, no more than two carry-on
pets per cabin (that would be 2 in first, 2 in business and 2 in coach). I
have no idea why. Because the yap-dog and the kitten might double-team the
bird in row 24? And you can cram as many animals as you want into the kennel
itself, but no more than 4 checked kennels per flight. Mind, that might be a
space-thing; the kennel area is heated as well as pressurized. (We were also
supposed to dress in suit and tie at all times. You could always tell the
nonrevs. They were the only ones coming from Hawaii, Disneyland, or Miami in
a suit and tie). That said, they were never able to open your bags to look
for Hazmat unless someone heard a hissing noise or other suspcious sounds
until the license-to-loot issued by Homeland Insecurity---about the only way
they'd find a couple of lighters was if the bag broke open in transit (or
someone decided your bag looked expensive enough to try a little shopping in
and they caught him). I can't tell you WHY the reg is there, but I can
guess; cargo holds weren't pressurized at all in prop planes or in early jets
(707s?) and weren't pressurized very well up until the late 1970s early
1980s. (I recall this because of a couple of cases of people dying whilst
being smuggled in someone's luggage or sneaking into the cargo hold to
smuggle themselves. Also pets put in cargo by mistake or being smuggled
croaked.).

Explanation for the reg? It is possible that an explosion and fire could
start that way in an unpressurized hold (not likely, but possible, and the
then-FAA preferred to err heavily on the side of caution.
end quote

Gee. Do we feel safer, now?
 
Hello, Folks! It's OVERREACTION TIME!!!!


No, not the TSA's overreaction. THR's.


Lighters in checked luggage were a no-no long before 9-11. Hazardous materials. Flimsy containers of pressurized butane in a non-pressurized cargo area where the possibility of ignition (meaning, EXPLOSION) exists.


I hate the post 9-11 nonsense as much as any of you, but this ain't it.
 
I used to be a Ramp Agent (baggage handler, in layman's terms) for Delta Airlines. As far as the rough handling of baggage goes, those crews are operating under draconian time constraints. We used to get our collective @$$'s chewed if the flight was pushed off the gate even 1 minute late! :eek: Bearing that in mind, the crew loading the cargo holds, cannot be expedient and gentle at the same time. The airlines want efficiency not baggage handlers with kid gloves! I always advise friends/family to never place anything valuble or fragile in checked baggage because of this. JMHO. :)
 
Confirming that it's a D.O.T. HazMat transportation thing: Google 49 CFR and watch what comes up. You'll also see references to spray cans and SCUBA cylinders. The references I saw showed butane REFILLS and Zippo-type lighter fluid being prohibited, but there's a lot of dense, non-specific wording in there. Sounds like a baggage-searcher got a case of err-on-the-side-of-caution syndrome. The question of packing plastic lighters must have come up a thousand times before. There should be info available about what was done.

There's some stuff in DOT and FAA reg's and airline policies that isn't obvious. When I came back from a stint in Japan more than ten years ago, I found out after the fact that my collection of matchbooks and boxes of matches (many handfuls, from restaurants) was a major no-no. No fallout for me, back then. Looks like she got an overzealous screener.
The letter tells us (her) that she has ten days to file "explanatory information reflecting extenuating or mitigating circumstances regarding these alleged violations".
IANAL; treating my thoughts as advice could cause major problems. How about: "They're souvenirs. They were packed because the policy was not posted clearly" ? That won't work if it was posted clearly, of course. Beyond that, because plastic lighters can be carried on board an aircraft when a long list of things can't, a reasonable person wouldn't give lighters a second thought when packing.

Good luck to you and to her; please let us know how it turns out.

{EDIT: I just read your next post; I agree.}
 
Baggage holds ARE pressurized! I know that because all of the lighters, deodorant and shaving cream I've packed over the years didn't explode in my suitcase!

It's a silly rule enforced by silly people doing a silly job.

Keith
 
"But seriously, imagine if a couple of butane containers were cracked during handling allowing a slow leak, of if Grandpa's bowling ball shifted during rotation, smashing a half-dozen of them...releasing a nice cloud of fuel-air-explosive... add a random spark...

It's not as far-fecthed as it sounds. Something similar to this brought down a cargo jet leaving Miami Int'l Airport a few years ago. Came down right off the Palmetto Expressway..."


Pul-leaze!

That was oxygen tanks that did that, not butane lighters.

I really do hope you are kidding & appologies in advance if so.

Really & c'mon. Butane lighters - brand-new & toot-sweet-full - can be thrown into a fire-pit & not do one damnable thing to anyone nearby.

Try it yourself sometime.

Make a roaring campfire & just toss a brand new one in. A few seconds later, they go "Poof!", but hardly any explosion, nor the old saw of "equivalent to 7 sticks of dynamite" crap-ola.

Wear safety goggles if you choose.

The whole thing about lighters is absolutely rediculous.

(& that they now have "safeties" on them is so stupid as to bound on the absurditiesness-silly-thingies ;))


Jack 'em up, My Man!
 
Concerning the discussion of the (de)pressurization of the cargo area - remember, they carry checked animals in the cargo hold, so it can't be TOO depressurized, or many, many old ladies would be very upset about the inside-out, freeze-dried Pekinese they picked up on the other end...
 
Everything in the "tube" of a normal passenger jet IS pressurized top and bottom, from the bulkhead just forward of the cockpit(the nose cone isn't), aft to the pressure dome which is immediately forward of the tail feathers(control surfaces).
 
Keith,

Consider dropping a note to your federal congresscritters about this, and send them copies of your correspondence with the TSA. Maybe--just maybe--they'll get the hint that the TSA was a stupid idea.
 
ceetee mentioned:
Most people haven't ever seen the trained gorillas the airlines employ as luggage handlers. They have genetically altered them so that they can do maximum damage to your checked baggage in a minimum amount of time, with a minimum amount of handling...

Remember the old Samsonite TV commercials? That was "Baggage Handler of the Month" at La Guardia. :D
 
labgrade

I realize it wasn't butant lighters but O2 generators brought that one down. My point was when the SHTF, you can' t be too picky about what caused it... like the cargo jet in which the freightmaster(bater) "forgot" that the load had to be secured. The entire load in a DC-8 shifted to the rear of the aircraft during rotation, causing the whole of the airframe to become vertical... Like a hot air balloon with no hot air. That's the one that really came down off the Palmetto... When the end result could be as disastrous as that, it pays to err on the side of caution.

P.S... did I really spell "fetched" that messed up? Geez!

Amegatek

Like I said... It's a job that's hot, nasty, and reeking of Jet A. One time, I was watching a flght in from Frankfurt being unloaded when they pulled off a "Beck's Bier" box that had "Fragile-Dishes" written all over all the sides... as it was coming down off the conveyor, the guy at the bottom was distracted by something... CRASH!!

The aroma of German hops wafted over the tarmac, as several pairs of eyes got all misty...
 
this is why i refuse to fly comercial airlines. went to dallas for quake con 2 months back 1st time out of the state (florida) in 6 years we drove it. it was cheaper, had more fun, and didn't have to put with any bull????.
 
Look, I don't really care if they pull butane lighters out of luggage on the grounds that they violate some regulation. I think the reasoning is stupid, but those guys with the scanners probably don't have any latitude in the matter.
What I do care about is the stupidity and expense of starting an "investigation" into such a thing! At some point, somebody, must be tasked with acting on the various items pulled out of luggage. This is where the bureaucratic mind goes off the tracks! Why does a butane lighter need to be "investigated" by some board? Why do I (or my daughter) have to provide documentation and explanations as to why a lighter was in some luggage? It's a lighter and it was in the luggage - what more do you want?

A sensible law would not pull lighters, deodorant and hairspray out of luggage. A sensible bureaucrat dealing with a nonsensical law would simply send a letter saying something like: "We removed a lighter out of your luggage because it violates such and such regulation. Please don't do that again. We don't have any lattitude in the matter and if you'd like to complain, send a letter to blah, blah, blah."

And my response to that would be: "OK, fine, whatever...".

But of course if we don't have "investigations" into such matters we won't be able to justify having all these stupid bureaucrats on the payroll. That's reason enough not to apply common sense to every day situations!

Keith
 
It's pretty sad

I'm not even remotely concerned that terrorists will attack one of my flights. But I live in real fear that uniformed representatives of Der Fatherland will find some smokeless powder residue on my fingers or bags and put me away for a while.

Every flight is a new exercise in bending over and taking it. Seeing all of us there in the security line, shoes off, partially disrobed, poked and questioned by arrogant TSA toadies. It makes me wonder if the whole "it can't happen here" line of thought is complete BS. It IS happening here! Right now! And there's absolutely nothing any of us can do about it. Welcome to the new world order.

All I know is I'll never bring a child into this world. Not much of a protest, but it's about all I've got left.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top