Strange - Plated Bullets Keyholed

[Walkalong]

I went to the range a little while ago. (102 degrees in the shade here in Alabama today.) Anyway. I experienced something strange. I have had lead bullets keyhole, but never jacketed or plated. I was working up some midrange loads for .357 in my Blackhawk. I had shot these same three powders earlier at smaller charges and no problems, just lighter than I was looking for.

I shot the X-Treme 158 Gr. SWC at 1.488 O.A.L. with Winchester cases trimmed to 1.280. That is seated deep, past the cannelure. I used a medium taper crimp on them.

I used 6.4 Grs. True Blue, 6.0 Grs. AA #5, & 5.0 Grs. Red Dot with the WSP primer.

True Blue gave Hi - 917 / Lo - 880 / Avg - 895 / ES - 37 / SD - 14

AA # 5 gave Hi - 852 / Lo - 816 / Avg - 838 / ES - 36 / SD - 13

Red Dot gave Hi - 945 / Lo - 888 / Avg - 907 / ES - 57 / SD - 20

I shot 1 group with each load and then did it again with the same results.

The True Blue Shot OK, but a couple of bullets showed signs of tipping. 2 Groups

The AA# 5 shot pretty well and all bulets cut clean holes. 2 Groups

The Red Dot shot poorly and almost all bullets keyholed! 2 Groups

It seemed like at somewhere around the upper 800's or 900 FPS the bullets were keyholing. Hmmm. I had 1 round of eack load left so I shot them in my 686 and they all cut clean holes. I did not check velocities, I should have, but assume they were similar to the Blackhawk velocities. The Blackhawk barrel is 4 5/8" while the 686 is a 4" er. I will have to check this further, but the Red Dot load keyholed so badly I would think it would do so from the 686 as well, but it might have fallen below the magic velocity to keyhole.

I have shot Rem 110 Gr. JHP's through this Blackhawk at 1200 to 1250 FPS with excellent accuracy at 7 and 100 Yards!

Now, what caused the keyholing? Strange for sure.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I had that happen with some plated (Ranier? or whatever Midway sells) they were undersize by .004. this was .45 acp supposedly, I just bought 100 to try, wouldn't recommend, besides good lead hard-cast is cheaper.

 

[Walkalong]

No ideas?

 

[joneb]

If the bullets are to spec ? I would push them faster, but it's strange the AA#5 load did not tumble at that range . Do you know the twist rates for the two guns ? I think the Ruger maybe 1:16 ?
Have you inspected the barrel of the Ruger ? mainly the crown
Good luck,

 

[ReloaderFred]

Walkalong,

Since you're not pushing these bullets very hard, in fact, way below the maximum velocity for plated bullets, and they work just fine in the S&W 686, I would say the problem probably lies with the bore diameter of the Blackhawks in relation to the diameter of the bullets. I would slug both barrels and see if the 686 is tighter than the Blackhawks. If they're the same, then check the diameter of the cylinder mouths. It could be that the cylinder throats are messing up the bullets as they come out of the cylinder.

Just another thought. Have you thoroughly cleaned any leading or copper fouling from the barrel of the Blackhawk? That can sometimes affect bullets of another type.

You might also try shooting some of those rounds through the Blackhawk from about 5 yards and see if you're getting flakes of the plating hitting the target. I doubt you will, since you said you're using a medium taper crimp. You can also try the same loads with a very light crimp and see if that makes a difference, but I doubt you're cutting through the plating with the crimp.

These are just some possible areas to look at.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Walkalong]

then check the diameter of the cylinder mouths. It could be that the cylinder throats are messing up the bullets as they come out of the cylinder.

I kind of wondered about that. Without slugging the throats or barrel I can tell you that the throats on the Blackhawk are about .0015 to .003 bigger than the throats on the 686. The .3576 to .3578 X-Tremes drop through the clean throats of the Blackhawk with just a touch of wiggle room. (.001 to .002 maybe, I'm guessing)(Fouled they will not drop through). They will NOT drop through, or even push through, the throats on the 686. I don't think this is as important as the relationship between the throats and bores respectively.

Without knowing that relationship I can only guess as to what is happening to the bullets as they pass through the throats and enter the bore. I will drum up some .38 lead bullets and see if I can get an idea here. I hope I can find some soft ones besides the HBWC's I have. I don't want to try to beat a hard cast bullet all the way through those bores.

I also need some more shooting with these and other plated bullets at those and higher velocities in those two guns and see what happens. I have some Ranier & Berrys 148 DEWC's, some Ranier 125 & 140 Gr. FP's, & some Berry's 125 & 158 Gr HP's.

I don't believe the type powder had anything to do with it. It has to be the velocity and what is happening to the bullet as it is fired. As I stated earlier, the Blackhawk shot some 110 Gr. JHP's at around 1200 to 1250 FPS with excellent accuracy. It has to be the more fragile plating and something. Something what? Velocity + Plating + ( ? ) = Answer

 

[Cleck]

Is there a chance they are being crimped too hard? If those Raniers are crimped just barely too hard, the plating will separate like an egg shell.

A bullet leaving the barrel with the jacketing ripping off will surely tumble.

 

[Walkalong]

No sign of that happening. I have shot these X-Tremes with more crimp than I am using now with no apparent problems. I have shot plated bullets for a long time now.

I am going to test further tommorrow, with any luck.

 

[joneb]

My Colt .357's cylinder measures .358 at the mouths I've shot Raineers and Accura plated 125,140 and 158gr FP and they shoot fine. When I shoot lead the .358 dia is more accurate than the .357 dia. my S&W's prefer the .357 dia lead slugs.
I roll crimp my plated bullets, I'm to cheap or lazy to get a taper crimp die, but my case lengths must be +or- .0015" for this to work well.

 

[Walkalong]

I shot the X-Treme 158 Gr. SWC again today as well as the Berry's 158 Gr. HP. If they got over around 900 FPS in the Blackhawk they started keyholing and if they got over about 1050 FPS they started keyholing in the 686 as well. The 686 has smoother throats etc. They shoot real well at around 850 FPS which is all I wanted really anyway. A nice .357/.38Spl load for plinking.

I am going to shoot some with no crimp at all, but I don't think it will help. I was out of Raniers. I will check them sometime as well.

 

[ReloaderFred]

That's really strange. I routinely drive Berry's 124 grain 9mm bullets at 1,350 fps in my 357 Sig, and they're really accurate. It's only when I try to exceed 1,400 fps with Power Pistol that they keyhole in that caliber.

Now you've got me curious. I'll have to load up some of the Berry's 158 grain FP plated bullets in my Blackhawks and S&W Model 19's and see what happens at various velocities. It will be a week or so before I can get to it, but I'll be interested to see if the results are the same as yours.

My Blackhawks both have 4 5/8" barrels, but I've got S&W Model 19's in 2 1/2", 4" and 6". That should give me a variety of lengths to play with, when I get the chance.

Fred

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

I had the same problem with berry's bullets in my .357. keep them under 1200fps (1000 is better) and don't crimp too tight or the copper plating will be compromised and the bullet will fall apart.

 

[GP100man]

Walkalong
ive shot & got similar results with three different GPs, so i called ranier .
they told me to load under 1,000 fps or jacket seperation is more than likely, i have found that about 1,050 is all i can get then keyholing & double holes.
i asked ranier how thick the (jacket) was the answer was .003-.007 & i have disected a few & found that jackets not only vary in thickness but vary on the same bullet.003 on one side & .007 on the other!!!!
i have recovered bullets & found some with 1/2 of the copper gone to just the cores even under 1000fps & no expansion on the HPs even shooting wet sand thoughthey are accurate to 1050 fps i used em as plinking rounds.

GP100man

 

[Walkalong]

That's really strange. I routinely drive Berry's 124 grain 9mm bullets at 1,350 fps in my 357 Sig, and they're really accurate.

I have pushed Raniers 9MM 115 Gr. RN bullet a tad over 1400FPS from a CX4 Storm with a 16" barrel with great results. My WSF load shot an AVG 1389 FPS from it with very good accuracy. That same load shot an AVG 1181 from a 5' Bennelli.
Like I said earlier, I am going to experiment with crimp and seating depth. I believe something is going on besides going past the bullets limits.

My only other thought is that maybe the bullets are too soft for this rifling. They may be skidding, which is what causes keyholing with lead bullets when the grooves are clogged full of lead. Grasping at straws here.

These are the only two .357's I have besides my Security Six. I could try it in it as well.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I would guess you over crimped them.

I suggest you pull a bullet or two from your reloads and see if you cut the copper wash on the surface. I bet you did and this is the source of the problem. This is from prior experience with Raniers.

Now if it is Berry's bullets then you got "berry-ied". That is the term I use when you got terrible accuracy out of cheap bullets and wondered why. I gave up on Berry's after I found I could cut my group sizes in half by switching from berry's to Remington out of my 210's.

 

[Walkalong]

I am going to try virtually no crimp to make sure, but I did not use much crimp as I am aware of the problem of overcrimping plated bullets. The brass was not digging into the bullet at all, just pushed up against it good.

I will let you know if that turns out to be the problem. I will shoot again next weekend, or if curiousity gets the best of me, and it just about has, I may try to sneak out to the range midweek after work. I have more brass already prepped and ready to go. I'll load it up tommorrow evening.

By the way, I was shooting a 7 yards and saw no signs of plating on the target, just a tiny bit of powder residue.

 

[Navy joe]

I have shot about 20K plated 9mm bullets out of a Glock. Most were 115 gr with very good accuracy and flying in the 1130-1150 range. I made a batch of 147 plated, big mistake. They keyholed way worse than yours. Bad. Of course they shot fine in a Beretta 92 and A Hi-Power. I can only surmise the big bullet's inertia was able to overcome the ability of the polygonal rifling to fully engage it and impart proper spin since the Glock has a comparable barrel length and twist to the others. Maybe your rifling just doesn't like heavy plated bullets.

Sad I had to scrap that load, most accurate thing I've ever shot out of a Hi-Power.

 

[Sunray]

Bullets key hole for two reasons. Too slow or under size.
The AA #5 is giving you the best accuracy. I'd stop there.

 

[Walkalong]

The AA #5 is giving you the best accuracy. I'd stop there.

It got three Stars in my load book. That will be the one to judge others by. Still curious as to the cause though.

Addition:
I loaded some Berry's and X-Treme 158 Gr. bullets again over 7.0 Grs. of N330. It should give around 1150 or 1200 FPS easily and will keyhole the bullets for sure if I do everything the same as before. I did not. I used no crimp at all. I used a Redding two step sizer, just as before, which does not bell the brass, so to speak. It sizes part of the neck below bullet diameter and a small portion just above bullet diameter. I adjust it so I can hand start about 1/32 to 1/16 of the bullet. There is no bell sticking out, just a straight casewall.

I also loaded some 110 Gr. JHP's to see what they will do. I have already shot these 110 JHP's at just over 1200 FPS using Universal Clays with excellent accuracy at both 7 and 100 yds. They should do fine here as well. I did use a medium taper crimp on them. I roll crimped them before.

I might get to shoot them Thursday evening. If not it will be this weekend. I am looking forward to those results as well as Freds when he gets a chance to try it out in his guns.

 

[Walkalong]

I shot the uncrimped Berry's 158 Gr HP and X-Treme 158 Gr. SWC today. They averaged around 1063 to 1078 depending on bullet and gun. They keyholes some from the Blackhawk again, but not from the 686 at virtually the same velocities, BUT, I did not excede the velocity which the 686 had some keyhole at before, so I will have to push them harder to see at which velocity they keyhole (if they do and I suspect they will) in the 686. I was expecting a little more velocity from this load, but that is what I get for changing powders.
I also shot the 110 JHP and they shot well in both guns as expected. I have shot them previously in the Blackhawk with excellent accuracy.

The Blackhawk definitly does not like plated bullets at over 900 or so FPS.
The 4" barreled 686 gave a tad more velocity than the 4 5/8 barreled Blackhawk.

 

[Walkalong]

Well. I went out and shot the plated X-Treme 158 Gr. SWC again today in the 686. I used 7.5 Grs. N340 with a WSP primer and used a light crimp. I shot them at an Avg. 1135 FPS with no keyholing. I did not shoot them in the Blackhawk as there was no point in it. They woud have keyholed for sure. I am going to shoot these bullets at 1200 FPS plus next time with a light crimp and see how they do.

I also shot my Model 10 a little. I really like it.