W-244

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Great range report as usual, thank you.

It looks like W244 will make a good replacement for W231 if need be for any reason. I'm not sure how soon I will be buying W244 in bulk since I still have over 10 lbs of W231 in stock! Your report is comforting especially with the 45 Auto. Thanks again...
 
Walkalong said:
The SNS coated 180 gr TrFP (They call it a Flat Point) in .40 shot well as usual and both powders shot pretty well.
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Walkalong, thanks again for sharing your W244 loads. I have done some 9mm, 45acp and 357sig loads, but are interested in your 40S&W loads.

Do you think it is a powder that works well in 40S&W, and which bullet weight should work better in 40S&W?

I see you shoot SNS coated 180gr bullets and you comment that they shot well as always. Do you have any recommendations for reasonably priced .40 bullets that shoots well. Lately I have been having a tough time finding reasonably priced .40 bullets. Even the pulled jacketed bullets are not that cheap anymore.
 
vaalpens said:
Lately I have been having a tough time finding reasonably priced .40 bullets
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Amen to that. I used to shoot the X-Treme 180 Gr HP and it shot well, was clean, easy to load, and reasonably priced. Not so much anymore.

I had some old Precision coated 180 Gr TrFP bullets that shot well for me (Have a handful left), but Precision went to a no lube groove style and 170 or 175 Gr, so I tried the ones from SNS 180 Gr TrFP which are almost surely from the same Magma mold as the old TrFP Precision bullet.

I am sure the new Precison bullets would shoot well, and may still get some, but I like the SNS ones.

The Precision 200 Gr SWC has always been no lube groove and I like it a lot.

I don't shoot much .40, and just recently got another .40 after not having for for many years.

I tried some 140 gr SNS bullets for lighter recoil, but it's hard to get good numbers and a clean burn at minimum load levels with light bullets in .40. I still have some 140 Gr Raniers that did well for me. The Ranier 155 (TrFP) @ 1.130 OAL and 4.5 Grs Sport Pistol or 4.3 Grs N310 make nice mouse fart level .40 loads. Just happened to have some leftover from back then.
 
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Walkalong said:
Amen to that. I used to shoot the X-Treme 180 Gr HP and it shot well, was clean, easy to load, and reasonably priced. Not so much anymore.

I had some old Precision coated 180 Gr TrFP bullets that shot well for me (Have a handful left), but Precision went to a no lube groove style and 170 or 175 Gr, so I tried the ones from SNS 180 Gr TrFP which are almost surely from the same Magma mold as the old TrFP Precision bullet.

I am sure the new Precison bullets would shoot well, and may still get some, but I like the SNS ones.
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Thanks for the information. I have never looked at SNS coated bullets, but I had a quick look and compared some prices. I just included some of the manufacturers. Cost can still come down by purchasing more bullets, especially when shipping has to be paid:

40sw_bullet_cost.PNG
 
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I have updated the above list of 40s&w bullet suppliers to include Precision Bullets. They are very competitive with the no shipping cost.
 
kcofohio said:
Personally, with no facts to back me up, I think HP-38/W231 days are numbered.
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Why do you say that? I'm curious, not criticizing. Personally, I see very few powders being retired, and I wouldn't think a popular powder like W231, who many swear by, would be cut. I have some of the same worries, though, when IMR introduced the Enduron powders... right in the same burn range as other powders like IMR4895 and IMR4064. They seem redundant, so why would they waste their production capacity and advertising dollar on a same-same powder... unless they intend to retire the older ones.

I'm curious about W244, just like I'm curious about BE-86... they both seem to fit a niche that's already filled, but are they really a better mousetrap?
 
Charlie98 said:
Why do you say that? I'm curious, not criticizing. Personally, I see very few powders being retired, and I wouldn't think a popular powder like W231, who many swear by, would be cut. I have some of the same worries, though, when IMR introduced the Enduron powders... right in the same burn range as other powders like IMR4895 and IMR4064. They seem redundant, so why would they waste their production capacity and advertising dollar on a same-same powder... unless they intend to retire the older ones.

I'm curious about W244, just like I'm curious about BE-86... they both seem to fit a niche that's already filled, but are they really a better mousetrap?
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As I said, I have no facts to back me. But it was reported during the last run on powder, which I will try to find when I get home, that HP-38/W231 had a lot of waste in the process of producing it.
 
Walkalong said:
I think BE-86 is.
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Not so much W244?

Not to sidetrack... but my initial test with BE-86 in the 9mm were mixed, I think it's too slow for the shorter barrel 9mm's as evidenced by the dropoff in velocity gain vs more charge weight. It did very poorly in my single .45 Colt test load, but it seemed to work well in the single .45ACP test load I had, almost better than Unique... so testing is continuing... probably only in 9mm and .45ACP.

W244 might show more promise than BE-86, at least in the few loads I intend to use it for... but, as I said, testing will continue.... and that's why I really appreciate feedback from the gang here. :)
 
vaalpens said:
What about Sport Pistol. Don't you think it fills a niche, especially for the competition shooters using coated bullets: "Optimized for polymer-coated bullets"
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I think the "optimized for coated bullets" is marketing hype since they are so popular now. I believe any powder with low nitro content and perhaps also treated to produce low flame temp is "optimized" for coated bullets.

That said, I like Sport Pistol a lot as well.
 
W-244 didn't wow me, but did not disappoint either. It did get my attention with the good powder forward numbers in .45 Colt, and if it can do that consistently in large cases, it will move way up on the list if it delivers accuracy with it.

I need to try it in a mid-range .357 load that BE-86 is so good at.
 
Charlie98 said:
I'm curious about W244, just like I'm curious about BE-86... they both seem to fit a niche that's already filled, but are they really a better mousetrap?
Click to expand...
IMO, yes they are (Short answer).


Now for my long answer. Below is "my" compilation of pistol powders by "relative" burn rate groupings - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-10966508


Faster burning pistol powders:

Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - Trail Boss - N320 - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Sport Pistol - Green Dot - IMR Green - W244

Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X

No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37


Charlie98 said:
kcofohio said:
Personally, with no facts to back me up, I think HP-38/W231 days are numbered. Nice to know that they'll have a decent replacement in the lineup.
Click to expand...
Why do you say that? I'm curious, not criticizing. Personally, I see very few powders being retired, and I wouldn't think a popular powder like W231, who many swear by, would be cut.
Click to expand...
W231/HP-38 has been my reference powder since I started reloading and shooting matches. But I believe Hodgdon/Winchester HAD to come up with "Winclean 244" to address W231/HP-38's short comings:
  • Depending on caliber/bullet weight, needed to be loaded to near max load data to make power factor
  • Good for medium target loads but could not produce higher full power velocities of slower powders
  • More temperature sensitive than other powders and loads that met power factor in summer would not make PF in winter
  • Depending on lead lube type, leaves gummy residue in pistols
With Winclean 244 using newer manufacturing process, perhaps Hodgdon/Winchester hoped to address these issues to produce higher velocities, cleaner burning and perhaps less temperature sensitive(?) to better appeal to target/match shooters needing to meet power factor at medium powder burn rate.

But Winclean 244 has stiff competition. While Ramshot Zip is close, Alliant really did not have a powder that directly competed with W231/HP-38/Titegroup/N320 in the comparable burn rate. When Sport Pistol was released, looks like Alliant also addressed W231/HP-38's shortcomings as well while directly comparing with Titegroup and N320 enough for me to replace W231/HP-38 as my reference powder (Many match shooters consider Sport Pistol new N320 that burns cleaner) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-performance-info-for-shot-011017-pdf.235432/
  • Better metering than W231/HP-38
  • Less temperature sensitive
  • Cleaner burning

As to BE-86, I consider it modern Unique that meters better. There are many reloaders that love Unique for flexibility of caliber application but hate how it meters. During all the years I have shot USPSA, I have never met a match shooter who used Unique. :eek: This adds to the fact that Alliant previously did not have any match shooting worthy powder in the Titegroup to W231/HP-38 other than Bullseye and Power Pistol which are faster and slower burning.

BE-86 for me has shattered all previous known accurate loads in 9mm and 40S&W (with exception of WST) to replace WSF (Which BTW is reverse temperature sensitive) and if I were to compete again, would be one of top powder choice I would choose, especially for higher velocity loads.
 
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bds said:
Yes they are (Short answer).


Now for my long answer. Below is "my" compilation of pistol powders by "relative" burn rate groupings - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-10966508


Faster burning pistol powders:

Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - Trail Boss - N320 - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Sport Pistol - Green Dot - IMR Green - W244

Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X

No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37



W231/HP-38 has been my reference powder since I started reloading and shooting matches. But I believe Hodgdon/Wichester HAD to come up with "Winclean 244" to address W231/HP-38's short comings:
  • Depending on caliber/bullet weight, needed to be loaded to near max load data to make power factor
  • Good for medium target loads but could not produce higher full power velocities of slower powders
  • More temperature sensitive than other powders and loads that met power factor in summer would not make PF in winter
  • Depending on lead lube type, leaves gummy residue in pistols
With Winclean 244 using newer manufacturing process, perhaps Hodgdon/Winchester hoped to address these issues to produce higher velocities, cleaner burning and perhaps less temperature sensitive(?) to better appeal to target/match shooters needing to meet power factor at medium powder burn rate.

But Winclean 244 has stiff competition. While Ramshot Zip is close, Alliant really did not have a powder that directly competed with W231/HP-38/Titegroup/N320 in the comparable burn rate. When Sport Pistol was released, looks like Alliant also addressed W231/HP-38's shortcomings as well while directly comparing with Titegroup and N320 enough for me to replace W231/HP-38 as my reference powder (Many match shooters consider Sport Pistol new N320 that burns cleaner) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-performance-info-for-shot-011017-pdf.235432/
  • Better metering than W231/HP-38
  • Less temperature sensitive
  • Cleaner burning

As to BE-86, I consider it modern Unique that meters better. There are many reloaders that love Unique for flexibility of caliber application but hate how it meters. During all the years I have shot USPSA, I have never met a match shooter who used Unique. :eek: This adds to the fact that Alliant previously did not have any match shooting worthy powder in the Titegroup to W231/HP-38 other than Bullseye and Power Pistol which are faster and slower burning.

BE-86 for me has shattered all previous known accurate loads in 9mm and 40S&W (with exception of WST) to replace WSF and if I were to compete again, would be one of top powder choice I would choose, especially for higher velocity loads.
Click to expand...

Much of what you said is what I have pondered, just never put into words. I've pretty much begged off W231 because, as I have stated, to get to factory velocity with 230grn bullets in the .45ACP, you have to max it; as a faster powder, it's not as forgiving as I have found Unique to be. I consider WST the same, at least with 230grn bullets, but now that I'm loading 200's for my alloy 1911, WST has become useful to me again. I would love to find a powder that would work well for that and the 9mm... I was hoping BE-86 would do that, but now that I understand more about it, I'm thinking not... but W244 might... and don't tell me TiteGroup. ;) I'll have to look a little closer at Sport Pistol... to be honest, the name put me off. I hear 'Sport' and I think 'muzzle blast,' much like Power Pistol.

I don't really dwell on the whole concept of 'cleaner burning...' I think a powder's burn is relative to a number of factors and, loaded incorrectly, any powder will burn 'dirty.' Granted, I'm not running 500rds through my pistols every other weekend, either, so I don't really care.

I've always used Unique in my .45 Colt loads, with excellent results; I was very disappointed with my trial load of BE-86... low velocity (with what the book said should have be an equivalent load to Unique) and a very odd discharge/recoil sensation. I didn't like it. That's not to say I won't try it again, but I'll have to do some more research. I guess the real question would be if the New Unique is as unique as Unique... that is to say, it will work in everything from the .380 to the big 40's (.41/.44/.45) I've never had a problem with measuring Unique, but I could see where it's properties wouldn't be the best in a fully automated type of reloader.
 
Charlie98 said:
Why do you say that? I'm curious, not criticizing. Personally, I see very few powders being retired, and I wouldn't think a popular powder like W231, who many swear by, would be cut. I have some of the same worries, though, when IMR introduced the Enduron powders... right in the same burn range as other powders like IMR4895 and IMR4064. They seem redundant, so why would they waste their production capacity and advertising dollar on a same-same powder... unless they intend to retire the older ones.

I'm curious about W244, just like I'm curious about BE-86... they both seem to fit a niche that's already filled, but are they really a better mousetrap?
Click to expand...
The quote in Post #13 is similar to what I remember reading.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/goodbye-w231-hp38.785777/#post-9986937
 
Walkalong said:
I think the "optimized for coated bullets" is marketing hype since they are so popular now. I believe any powder with low nitro content and perhaps also treated to produce low flame temp is "optimized" for coated bullets.

That said, I like Sport Pistol a lot as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation regarding what constitutes an "optimized" for coated bullets powder. What qualifies as low nitro content?

My apologies for going off topic with my questions.
 
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bds said:
But Winclean 244 has stiff competition. While Ramshot Zip is close, Alliant really did not have a powder that directly competed with W231/HP-38/Titegroup/N320 in the comparable burn rate. When Sport Pistol was released, looks like Alliant also addressed W231/HP-38's shortcomings as well while directly comparing with Titegroup and N320 enough for me to replace W231/HP-38 as my reference powder (Many match shooters consider Sport Pistol new N320 that burns cleaner) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-performance-info-for-shot-011017-pdf.235432/
  • Better metering than W231/HP-38
  • Less temperature sensitive
  • Cleaner burning
Click to expand...

Nice charts, wish they covered all the powders! I’m about ready to order my second 8# jug of Sport Pistol and it’ll definitely be used more often than not. VV had a rebate promo last year so I restocked 320/330/340 which are all good. I’m also a fan of W244 as I never really developed W231 mostly because I was hooked on WSF.
I really don’t want to order BE-86 as I have so much Universal on hand I need to shoot and not develop loads. But someday based on these posts I may have to. All the powders I load require me to clean my guns. I don’t know how factory loads burn so clean, but mine don’t.

Interesting thread on the powder interacting with the coatings. I gave up on 100 round plastic boxes and switched to 32oz Gatorade bottles to hold ammo. I guess I’ll just have to live with possible tracer rounds.
 
kcofohio said:
The quote in Post #13 is similar to what I remember reading.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/goodbye-w231-hp38.785777/#post-9986937
Click to expand...

That post was from 2015... 4 years ago, and W231 is still around. Reading through those posts it sounded like production had slowed or been cut back already, and was aiming to cease. Still plenty of W231/HP-38 on the shelf today, at least where I'm at. Not saying it won't happen, eventually; as soon as you rely on an outside supplier or manufacturer, you lose some amount of control over the product... so never say never.

I left some BE-86 in my powder hopper over 3 days... it etched the inside of the clear tube. That hasn't happened to me in 30 years of reloading, so it's obvious some powders are, indeed, different. I'm paying a little more attention to what's in powder, now... and I don't leave powder in the tube for longer than a lunch break.
 
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