Strange thing at Starbucks
- Thread starter steverjo
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MisterMike
Member
That strikes me as an oversimplistic--and nonresponsive--answer to a legitimate question. I hardly consider myself an anti, but there are certain holsters I won't use--most notably an IWB worn in the front of the waistband--because the consequences of a bobble include a high chance of a life-ending injury (muzzle pointed at femoral artery).
It seems that some folks defend every method of carrying in a holster without considering the point that the actual use of that weapon would require it to be withdrawn from the holster. If, at the moment of withdrawing the weapon, it is being pointed in an unsafe direction, I would argue that it's an unsafe holster . . . and, therefore, an unsafe method of carry.
GoWolfpack
Member
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- May 13, 2009
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So, how can you carry a gun safely if this is your position? IWB, I draw the gun, it's pointed at: me. OWB, I draw the gun, it's pointed at: me. Ankle holster, I draw the gun, it's pointed at: me. Vertically positioned shoulder holster, I draw the gun, it's pointed at: me. Pocket carry, I draw the gun, it's pointed at: me. Mexican style, I draw the gun, it's pointed at: me!
If you're drawing your gun, it better be to point it at somebody with the intent of using it if necessary. Otherwise, you shouldn't be drawing it.
I have an idea for the perfect holster; never pointed in an unsafe direction. It attaches to the side of your head and keeps the gun pointed muzzle-up all the time. But you'll have to be sure you're always on the top floor of whatever building you're in. Looking silly is a small price to pay for safety.
MisterMike
Member
In most of your examples I don't see the problem. How, for instance, could an OWB-carried gun end up pointed at you when you unholster it?
I honestly don't understand your point, and I acknowledge that I must not be explaining myself very well . . .
I carry IWB almost all the time, sometimes OWB. My pistols are always in the 3 to 4:30 position, regardless of the holster. At the moment they're withdrawn--which strikes me as a pretty critical instant, because you're making initial contact with your grip, perhaps dealing with clothing that's in the way, and likely under a bit of pressure from the situation, the muzzle is pointed downward and not at any person (myself included). I'm willing to acknowledge that if I wiff it at that point, I might suffer a grazing wound, but an AD would likely strike the ground. It sure seems to me that until I bring that gun up to a point it, it's still safe.
As I mentioned, the holsters that freak me out the most are the front IWB holsters, because at the most critical point the muzzle is pointed at an artery. An AD will see you bleeding to death in a matter of a couple of minutes. Likewise, the shoulder holsters that position the gun horizontally give me the willies--not because I'm likely to shoot myself, but because the muzzle is pointed directly in back of me at the moment I'm pulling it out of the holster.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Life is not an IDPA match.
Draw from strong side, seated in your car, as if a perp is bashing the drivers window in. See how that works for you. Don't pretend you are at an IPSC match, pretend someone is about to bash your head in with a hammer. Can you do it without covering yourself at some point? Sure. Is it quick enough to stop an attack? Maybe, maybe not.
Life isn't always safe. If it were we wouldn't be carrying guns.
There is no foolproof, 100%, guaranteed safe, all bases covered method of carrying a handgun on one's person.
It's not the equipment that is the danger, it's the person. You can't depend on only using certain holster types to keep you from shooting yourself.
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SharpsDressedMan
member
If I had the money and the resources, I would post a live feed of a loaded gun on a table, safety off, and stream it continuously day and night, so the anti's could tune in anytime and watch, and wait for it to go off. It would give them something to do.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Here's one. Been up for years
http://www.assaultweaponwatch.com/
Not sure if it's live or not, but it's hilarious.
MisterMike
Member
Sounds like an anti . . .
. . . just kidding. Okay, I see your point in your hypothetical. I think it's possible to bring your weapon to bear without sweeping yourself, but I acknowledge that it's pretty likely that you'll do so. But, that still brings me back to my point, which you might agree on, that you need to consider the consequences of the fact that no method of carry is "foolproof." That being the case, I like to account for the possibility of my inner fool making an appearance as I'm unholstering.Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Cosmoline
Member
Shoulder holsters have been around for ages. The way you avoid a ND is by not pulling the trigger when you draw. Same as any other presentation.
Cooper's rules are not religious dogma. If you apply Rule 1 absolutely you would never be able to clean any firearm. Or load a musket for that matter.
Cooper's rules are not religious dogma. If you apply Rule 1 absolutely you would never be able to clean any firearm. Or load a musket for that matter.
After reading the above as posted by the OP all I could think was do I really want to continue reading this thread? I imagined that the amount of proselytizing by the zero tolerance range nazi crowd, the 4 rule gospel guys, and the wadding of the panties people would just be - well - too annoying to bear. Move on said I. But being bored I jumped in with both feet prepared to wade thru all the pathetic wailing and gnashing of teeth.
<Best Gomer Pyle voice>
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise...
No wailing, no gnashing of the teeth, no wadded panties. Just reasonable responses filled with common sense comments.
<looks around to see if hell has frozen over - nope>
A good read this thread. Yep a good read.
ScottG1911
Member
Twas exactly my thoughts. the gun is not going to go off in a holster without human interferance. I will include that interferance to not properly setting up your holster. all the old polymer holster even say to clear your weapon before inserting into the holter, to make sure that your gun will not discharge while being holstered or drawn. so IF you do these precautions, your gun isn't going off, and you can stop crying like a buncha anti-gun sissy girls.
NavyLCDR
member
And only one almost anti-open carry comment so far! I am impressed!
ScottG1911
Member
Dad's with pretty daughters do
XTerminator
Member
The guy couldn't have been a real cop anyway.
Starbucks doesn't sell donuts.
Steve
Starbucks doesn't sell donuts.
Steve
There is no
"Known Safe Direction"
With tools (including knives hatchets and skilsaws),
Vehicles (including cars, jets, helos),
Weapons (including bows, spears, guns).
I am also unaware of any "Known Safe Direction"
In executing the daily affairs of my life.
isher
"Known Safe Direction"
With tools (including knives hatchets and skilsaws),
Vehicles (including cars, jets, helos),
Weapons (including bows, spears, guns).
I am also unaware of any "Known Safe Direction"
In executing the daily affairs of my life.
isher
FROGO207
Member
Now that this is about all talked over........:banghead: Come to think of it almost every time I go past my local Starbucks
I see something strange in there.
I see something strange in there. mcdonl
Member
Just curious.... I wonder how many AD/ND's come when unholstering the gun. It seems that would be the only real risk... or re-holstering. I often pocket carry, and if for any reason I unholster the gun in my pocket (I do this from time to time so I am comfortable with the process I ALWAYS take the gun out, and the holster out so that I do not accidently get something in the trigger gaurd and shoot my self in the testicles.
Looking at that setup, it looks like the retention strap COULD get caught in the trigger gaurd if extrement care is not taken when reholstering.
Just my thoughts.
Looking at that setup, it looks like the retention strap COULD get caught in the trigger gaurd if extrement care is not taken when reholstering.
Just my thoughts.
Badlander
Member
If A sholder holster will attract 20 women I'm buying one.
rs999
Member
Should gunners be concerned that anti's might release the break pedal at a full crosswalk?
Sucks to be the person standing behind the guy and he tries to reholster it with his finger on the trigger or some piece of clothing gets caught in the trigger guard. Even more so if it's a Glock...
Yes, I know what a Glock is and I own and carry more than one, so save it.
Yes, I know what a Glock is and I own and carry more than one, so save it.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Let's not make something into something that it's not. A holstered gun is as inert as it can get (and still be a gun). A holstered gun will eventually point its muzzle at things that you do not intend to shoot, and we consider this OK because (see above) it's still as inert as it can get. Anyone reholstering in line for Starbucks is likely a danger to others - not because they are reholstering but because they unholstered their carry piece in line at Starbucks.
I'm more worried about the folks texting on their phone in traffic than I am about the guy with a shoulder holster in Starbucks. In the grand scheme of risk management, the dude at Starbucks doesn't even rate a mention.
I'm more worried about the folks texting on their phone in traffic than I am about the guy with a shoulder holster in Starbucks. In the grand scheme of risk management, the dude at Starbucks doesn't even rate a mention.
rbernie
Contributing Member
The argument still makes no sense, no matter where Mr. Shoulder Rig is standing.
The sole risk identified so far in all of this is having MSR unholster and reholster. That's not a common occurance, and frankly isn't even a pimple on the backside of 'daily risk management issues'.
If it bothers you - stand to the side of him when he looks ready to unholster or reholster his gun. Outside of that - I'd advise that you simply ignore MSR as a non-issue and worry more about how much money you're payin' for something as simple as a cup of java.
The sole risk identified so far in all of this is having MSR unholster and reholster. That's not a common occurance, and frankly isn't even a pimple on the backside of 'daily risk management issues'.
If it bothers you - stand to the side of him when he looks ready to unholster or reholster his gun. Outside of that - I'd advise that you simply ignore MSR as a non-issue and worry more about how much money you're payin' for something as simple as a cup of java.
That's right...one can always see what a person around them is doing all the time...forgot about that. A person standing behind him could NEVER be facing 180 deg the other way... Or the guy reholstering would never be wearing a vest, sport coat...whatever. And that everyone behind him who didn't see him unholster in the first place would know later because shots are ALWAYS fired, right?
The point was that it's potentially a BIT less safe than if someone were to have an ND when reholstering into a holster pointed at the ground as with IWB, OWB etc. The shot doesn't go directly across the room, courtyard, foyer, parking lot...you name it.
The point was that it's potentially a BIT less safe than if someone were to have an ND when reholstering into a holster pointed at the ground as with IWB, OWB etc. The shot doesn't go directly across the room, courtyard, foyer, parking lot...you name it.
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