Jim Watson
Member
A cop of my acquaintance had occasion to shoot a felon with a 140 gr HP. Didn't do the punk a bit of good.
Street reputation of various handgun loads?
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fastbolt
Member
That was one of my factory favorite loads, and favorite component bullets when I was a young handloader (70's). The image in my memory gives the nose cavity shape a 5-sided shape, with a flat bottom. It didn't look large and deep, but it didn't seem to need to be. It was the hot speeds that could be realized, especially in longer barrels, that made for what was often described as some nicely explosive expansion.
My other favorite handloading component bullet for my .357's in those days was a half-jacketed 160gr SWC. The crimp could be done over the leading edge of the half jacket, and the medium-ish hard lead SWC could be boosted pretty fast, since it didn't contact the bore's lands/grooves and melt (or lead the bore
).Both of those served as my backwoods loads, when I was in the mood for a medium-bore, medium power gun. I carried them in my 4 5/8" Blackhawk Convertible (.357/9) and my first stainless 4" Security-Six.
I also used the factory CCI 140gr load for work and off-duty for a while. Until it dried up and I couldn't find it on any store shelves. (That was the 80's, so the internet wasn't a thing, and you had to find gun stores in the Yellow Pages.
)
whatnickname
Member
I can solve this question right now. Anything will kill anyone or anything else. I read a story once about a man killing a Brown bear with a 22 pistol. The warning on the box of 22 ammo states “ Warning: 1&1/4 mile range”. Using my superior powers of statistical analysis, I have determined that the 22 Long Rifle bullet is an effective round for taking Brown bear out to 1 &1/4 miles! See how easy that was?
Seriously, your question is one that cannot be answered with much certainty. There are just too many variables that factor into the forensic circumstances of an actual shooting. The FBI attempted to answer this question about ten or twelve years ago by conducting interviews of medical examiners, on postmortems of actual shootings, in a number of large US cities across the country. The report was published in 2014 if memory serves. You may still be able to pull a copy up on line. The bottom line was that caliber, within reason…9mm on up not 22LR, was not as important as the selection of premium ammunition designed for self defense. Right about this point in time many police departments started migrating back to 9mm. Why? Because the majority of their officers, particularly those of smaller stature, could fire the 9mm more accurately…less recoil, easier to recover between shots and smaller frame size fitting a greater percentage of officers. I don’t care what caliber or ammo you select, there will always be the one-off situation where we see ammo fail…it’s all about percentages and probabilities.
And for Bubba, that wants to take me on because I slighted their favorite 22 LR, 25, 32 or 380 round, I don’t care. I didn’t write the 2014 report published by the FBI. I could care less that your cousin 46 times removed managed to drop a Cape Buffalo at 2500 yards in 100 mph cross-winds with a 25 ACP. Now run along and book a Brown bear hunt with a 22 pistol. Get back to us and let us know how your hunt went!
Seriously, your question is one that cannot be answered with much certainty. There are just too many variables that factor into the forensic circumstances of an actual shooting. The FBI attempted to answer this question about ten or twelve years ago by conducting interviews of medical examiners, on postmortems of actual shootings, in a number of large US cities across the country. The report was published in 2014 if memory serves. You may still be able to pull a copy up on line. The bottom line was that caliber, within reason…9mm on up not 22LR, was not as important as the selection of premium ammunition designed for self defense. Right about this point in time many police departments started migrating back to 9mm. Why? Because the majority of their officers, particularly those of smaller stature, could fire the 9mm more accurately…less recoil, easier to recover between shots and smaller frame size fitting a greater percentage of officers. I don’t care what caliber or ammo you select, there will always be the one-off situation where we see ammo fail…it’s all about percentages and probabilities.
And for Bubba, that wants to take me on because I slighted their favorite 22 LR, 25, 32 or 380 round, I don’t care. I didn’t write the 2014 report published by the FBI. I could care less that your cousin 46 times removed managed to drop a Cape Buffalo at 2500 yards in 100 mph cross-winds with a 25 ACP. Now run along and book a Brown bear hunt with a 22 pistol. Get back to us and let us know how your hunt went!
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peacebutready
Member
Presumably the fmj referred to above are round nose ones. There are flat nose bullets as well. In the history of hollow points, I have to wonder if a person would have been better off with the flat nose rather than a hollow point many times. Many hollow points have not penetrated as far in live things as well as in gel.
As for current quality hollow points, does penetration sometimes come up short in live beings? Up to what size human do they usually penetrate enough?
Gordon
Member
The best answer so far IMHO . The neglected Sig .357 is pretty much a semi auto .357 magnum .I carry a Sig p226 slicked up by Gray Guns with 125 Speer God dots at 1450 fps chronographed. In my testing it is scary in terminal ballistics for thin skin stuff . The magazines hold 15 rounds in +2 size the use .40 S&w cases necked to .358.
Also the .40 S&W has excellent police record. The lighter 155-165 bonded hollow points at 124 grain ,9 mm velocities of 1200 fps have put a stop quickly on a lot of bad folks with one decent hit. They didn't abandon the .40 S&W because it was weak ! They didn't not switch to
.357 Sig to get slightly less recoil either , both are fierce combat handgun cartridges in my and many LEOs opinions who actually used them . Also the .45 ACP is pretty much in the same boat performance wise but requires a larger frame gun and carries less rounds in the mags. The 9x19 mm with hi tech bullet technology is also adequate and cheap so got the nod for general anti personnel use.
C-grunt
Member
Very possible.
In my experience modern main stream LE used hollow points in the duty calibers (HST, Gold Dot, Ranger, Critical Duty) have shown good penetration and expansion as long as they dont hit heavy bone. Im talking about bones like the humerous and femur. Even the lighter bones at or near the joints where they are thicker. They will do a lot of damage to the bones and joints, but tend not to travel far after that if they have gone through the bone. Glancing off or going through at a shallow angle is different. But with normal torso hits the bullet usually ends up on the off side of the person or fully penetrates. Often if they fully penetrate they can be found nearby as they have lost most of their velocity.
I cant remember anyone being so big that their size actually helped them. There just isnt a whole lot of 400+ pound people out there doing things that get them shot. I do remember one guy that was probably close to 400 pounds that got shot outside of a liqour store. He fell down when the suspect first started shooting and was on the ground on his side with his feet facing the suspect when he got shot. The 22lr hit him in the left side just below the rib cage. Say very upper abdomen area. Because of the orientation of the suspect and the victim the bullet travelled at an upward angle and damaged the liver and heart. He was still conscious when he went to the hospital but I believe he died later that night or the next day. I cant remember for sure but I do remember that he was not expected to survive when I ended my shift that night.
The only time Ive seen fat actually stop a bullet was a 380 hollow point. Victim was a construction worker. In okay shape except for the little bit of a beer belly he had from spending a lot of time at a local bar. He got into an argument at the bar and the suspect stood up, pulled out a 380 (Keltec if I remember right), and tried to shoot the victim in the face. The victim slapped the gun down and to the side and the shot ended up hitting him basically in the love handle. The 380 hollow point went through about 7 or so inches of fat and expanded perfectly. I collected the bullet after the medical student doctors cut open his skin and pulled it out.
LimaCharlie
Member.
Physics says that if you want to destroy something, bigger is better or faster is better. Therefore, biggest and fastest is best.
The BATFE says that anything over 50 caliber cartridges are destructive devices. A 500 S&W Magnum long barrel or a 50 BMG revolver would be the maximum handgun. After that, it is rationalization and justification for what you are willing to carry.
Internet science says all of the calibers are about the same to cut down on caliber wars that go on forever and ever.
The BATFE says that anything over 50 caliber cartridges are destructive devices. A 500 S&W Magnum long barrel or a 50 BMG revolver would be the maximum handgun. After that, it is rationalization and justification for what you are willing to carry.
Internet science says all of the calibers are about the same to cut down on caliber wars that go on forever and ever.
PEACEBUTREADY,
I do not think your question is that hard to answer. Police departments and other LEO'S test ammo all the time on the streets and in the field. When I started as an LEO, it was in the early 90's and we were issued .357 magnums. We had previously been issued .38Special +P+ ammo it it worked great, but only some of the time. This led to complaints from the field.
My agency then switched to .357, using the 110 grain sjhp as the baseline with the 125 grain optional if you could qualify. After switching to magnum loads, complaints from the field disappeared.
When we transitioned over to .40 S&W, we used 155 grain jhp at 1,200 fps and again no complaints.
When we went to a smaller gun, we dropped down to the 135 grain jhp at 1,200 fps and this seemed to work well.
The reason for going to a lighter bullet was a result of low qualification scores and failure to qualify.
So we switched to the mild 180 grain jhp. However, the 180 grain we went to was the FEDERAL HST and again no problems.
If an agency uses a certain load, then it probably works, though you have to watch out for politics. NYPD took forever to adopt the 9m.m. and tried several different kinds of ammo to get the .38 Special to do the job, but without adopting a hollow point bullet. It failed.
The FBI came up with an elaborate test to show it was the fault of 1 bullet and not poor training that caused such a disaster in the MIAMI shootout. They then announce the superior stopping power of the 147 grain jhp with proved to not work very well in the street. So again, you have to be careful about the politics.
If a round like the FEDERAL HST or SPEER Gold Dot or WINCHESTER PDX has a good reputation with the police departments and these rounds do, then you can generally go by that as tested and proven.
JIm
I do not think your question is that hard to answer. Police departments and other LEO'S test ammo all the time on the streets and in the field. When I started as an LEO, it was in the early 90's and we were issued .357 magnums. We had previously been issued .38Special +P+ ammo it it worked great, but only some of the time. This led to complaints from the field.
My agency then switched to .357, using the 110 grain sjhp as the baseline with the 125 grain optional if you could qualify. After switching to magnum loads, complaints from the field disappeared.
When we transitioned over to .40 S&W, we used 155 grain jhp at 1,200 fps and again no complaints.
When we went to a smaller gun, we dropped down to the 135 grain jhp at 1,200 fps and this seemed to work well.
The reason for going to a lighter bullet was a result of low qualification scores and failure to qualify.
So we switched to the mild 180 grain jhp. However, the 180 grain we went to was the FEDERAL HST and again no problems.
If an agency uses a certain load, then it probably works, though you have to watch out for politics. NYPD took forever to adopt the 9m.m. and tried several different kinds of ammo to get the .38 Special to do the job, but without adopting a hollow point bullet. It failed.
The FBI came up with an elaborate test to show it was the fault of 1 bullet and not poor training that caused such a disaster in the MIAMI shootout. They then announce the superior stopping power of the 147 grain jhp with proved to not work very well in the street. So again, you have to be careful about the politics.
If a round like the FEDERAL HST or SPEER Gold Dot or WINCHESTER PDX has a good reputation with the police departments and these rounds do, then you can generally go by that as tested and proven.
JIm
peacebutready
Member
@golden
Thanks.
I have a relative who is retired from the NYPD in the 1980s. They were using standard pressure semi-wadcutters at the time. IIRC, 158gr at 755 f.p.s. through the Model 10. I guess they experimented with other ammo for the .38. I guess it was after the semi-wadcutter era. They should have tried the "FBI load", aka the "Chicago load"
In the Miami shootout, if that 1 shot that failed was a 147gr jhp rather than the 115gr Silvertip, the bad guy may have been put down sooner because the 115gr stopped 1" from his heart. It's interesting to me the 147gr jhp used after the Miami shootout didn't work well on the street. I wonder which 147gr was used. Back in the day the San Diego PD used 147gr jhp and was happy with it from what I read in the past. I think they used Federal Hi-Shok.
Many nuances and variations in different circumstances.
Gordon
Member
I believe your correct, chances of fracture aren't there, a hole through maybe, but fracture not probably. I personally saw a 110 grain + p+ hit a slender build perp at 10 feet and it drilled thru with slight expansion and lodged under skin next to tailbone.
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Don't get me wrong, it's certainly possible that a typical self-defense pistol bullet in the right place could disable a person's hip joint and make it impossible for them to walk. Garen Brenner put a 9mm FMJ into the shoulder socket of a charging grizzly (admittedly one on the small side--though still larger than any human) which caused it to go down long enough that he was able to put some shots into the head and kill it.
But actually "shattering the pelvic girdle" is a really tall order for a typical self-defense pistol bullet.
But actually "shattering the pelvic girdle" is a really tall order for a typical self-defense pistol bullet.
Except when the "medical examiner" isn't a medical examiner at all but a forensic anthropologist (mostly works with bones and really badly decayed bodies) and the numbers he provides seem to be made up. Then it seems like it's not real world at all.
Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
Hi Biker. I have not seen any results from this round. I would only be guessing how it would perform. Sorry. -D
www.thehighroad.org
Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
With enough practice, one can double tap a .45acp as fast and as accurately as a nine and the holes are bigger. That's just a fact... Biker And still doesn't mean anything because the holes aren't that much bigger...not to mention bigger holes don't kill people, shots to the right places...
www.thehighroad.org
Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!
those cops were armed with 9 MM the bullets had no effect on them Pretty stupid argument IMO. The 9mm is known to have better penetration than the .45. Besides, in that situation, neither would have shown an effect on the robbers.
www.thehighroad.org
481
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Studies upon studies upon studies, even based upon carefully collated and reviewed actual OIS incidents, don't seem to clear up every little detail or address every variable that may be anticipated to occur in the real world. Imagine that.
I remember the service revolver days, as I came to LE during the tail end of those days and carried a .357MAG service revolver for the 80's. Yes, the 125gr JHP/SJHP was catching the attention of LE, but there were still satisfied users of 110gr, 145gr and 158gr Magnum loads. I never talked with anyone who used the Remington 140gr SJHP, myself, but I heard anecdotal discussion of it by a former DoD investigator who specialized in wound ballistics. His opinion was that if the days of the .357MAG service revolver had continued a little longer, the 140gr SJHP would've very likely have eclipsed the 125gr SJHP for duty use. I liked the 145gr STHP, myself, as I could find it very easily and for bargain pricing back then. Usually less expensive than the various 125gr MAG offerings. The 140gr CCI JHP I liked for a long time (hot & fast) became harder to find, and then it was discontinued.
While the 110gr .357MAG acquired a reputation for penetration on the 'shallow end', the .38SPL 110gr +P+ load still had its users, like CA's CHP. A friend of mine was a longtime CHP officer, and became one of their field weapons training officers at some field offices where he was assigned. He carried either the 125gr Magnum or the 110gr .38SPL +P+, depending on what the field office may maintain in inventory wherever he was assigned. (You could only carry what they issued at your field office, and you had to qualify with it, so it you wanted to carry Magnum loads you had to be able to qualify with them.) Interestingly enough, his service years also covered many years after they'd transitioned to .40 S&W, and he became a big proponent of the 180gr JHP .40 load. He once told me that an internal review of both the service revolver and service pistol days resulted in the agency having been better satisfied with the results of the use of 180gr/.40 than any of the previous revolver .357/.38 loads when it came to actual OIS incidents.
Bottom line? I still have the remaining supplies of W-W 145gr STHP, and Rem 125gr & 140gr SJHP, and I'll continue to carry them whenever I carry one or another of my .357's loaded with Magnum ammunition. (A couple of the shortest snubs often see one or another of the more modern +P offerings, but they're among the light Scandium aluminum frame models, so recoil can be a factor.) My 3" & 4" medium-framed .357's see whatever of the remaining rounds is within easy reach, without having to go open up one of the safes or cabinets.
I recall the CCI 140-grain .357 Magnum load that you mentioned. Looking at some of my (very) old chronograph work with that load, velocity out of my Ruger Security Six (4.5'' barrel) was 1,388 ± 5 fps. It was definitely ''hot stuff'.
Like you and your former colleague, I suspect that the .357 Magnum 140-grain SJHP would've eventually surpassed the performance of the .357 Magnum 125-grain SJHP given enough time—and use in the field. With its slightly greater mass, predicted expected time to incapacitation (based upon the US Army BRL's involuntary incapacitation model) for the CCI .357 Magnum 140-grain SJHP is T[I/H] = 11.3 seconds as compared to a T[I/H] of 11.4 seconds for the .357 Magnum 125-grain SJHP.
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Gordon
Member
Yeah a .480 Ruger or .500 cartridge wadcutter would be a "probably"
Two articles I recently read agree with the above statement. Center-of-Mass has been the ideal placement for stopping a threat. Then there was 2 in center-of-mass and 1 in the head, however a head shot is very hard to hit and hard to penetrate unless you hit a soft spot. The latest info I have is to shoot below the belt, hit the navel or abdomen. Medical info reveals a low hit will cause the perp to buckle and fall and though not lethal it will stop or slow a person down quickly. Second article stated unlike a round nose bullet, especially in a .38 Special, a wad cutter is a very good, hard hitting, deep penetrating projectile. The article disapproves of the Speer HBWC as being too soft , though a commercial round was not mentioned. So far I've been playing with a 148 grain Lee wc and could see a lot of benefit to such a projectile depending on the hardness of the cast. Some consider accuracy to be up to 50 yards.
If a person is predisposed to desist aggression when shot, then it probably doesn't matter that much where they are shot.
If they are predisposed to continue aggression, then it's good to keep in mind that shooting someone below the belt will not prevent them from shooting back--not even if they fall down. If it does cause people to fall down more often than a center-mass shot, that would be good for people attacking with contact weapons. Perhaps not so good for someone with a gun.
If they are predisposed to continue aggression, then it's good to keep in mind that shooting someone below the belt will not prevent them from shooting back--not even if they fall down. If it does cause people to fall down more often than a center-mass shot, that would be good for people attacking with contact weapons. Perhaps not so good for someone with a gun.
people seem to forget about semi jacketed flat point. not going to expand as well as a HP and not penetrate as deep as a hard cast bullet, but - somewhere in the middle of both, jack of all trades master of none option and probably a better idea than HP if woods or animals, bears of any kind might be involved. or if you ever needed to say, shoot through a door or other barrier.
481
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I am, for one, John, grateful that you are keeping track of the factual accounts and history surrounding this so-called ''knowledgeable source''. His misrepresentation of his profession and credentials are worth noting as they suggest an agenda beyond the stated purpose of his ''article'' might be at work. Thanks.
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peacebutready
Member
Did they survive?
In all three cases, they succumbed to their wound.
I recall a large gentleman being shot 6 times with a .357 magnum. He survived but the leo died when bubba shot him with a 22short. I’m sure someone will be along shortly to tell the tell better then I can.
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