Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Lloyd Smale, Sep 29, 2011.
didnt know that. thanks for the info.
....or a tree, or dirt, or mud. Sorry, but it sounds like you probably missed.
Did you recover the one that failed to penetrate? I'd like to see a pic of it.
I'm hunting about 250 miles south of you in the NW lower penninsula. The Baldwin Swamp to be exact. I also use the 25.06 for deer and have had odd performance with the TSX bullet. I'd used the 100gr at 3100 fps on both (2)mule deer and (2) whitetails and while I bagged them all with DRT shots from 55 yards to 190 yards I never recovered any of the bullets. The odd part was
that there was only the entrance wound on all of the deer but no exit's Just the one whole in all thier hides. It was like the bullets disintergrated, I couldn't find anything when I processed the animals.
Consequently I went back to the Nosler familly of bullets I grew up on and for Deer and Bear it's the Ballistic tip and for Elk and Moose it's the Partition in any caliber I'm loading for. The only exception to that is my .223 which I load the Swift Scirocco II in 75gr. for it.
Michigan does allow tracking dogs and we've had several over the years, the most recent one is my current hunting buddy named Abel a young Drathar still in training but we found a deer this afternoon that a friend's son shot.
Disentigrated? The shank of the bullet is solid copper! You could set it on an anvil and pound it with a hammer and it wouldn't disintegrate. Several years ago I fired a 53 gr. X from my 220 Swift (MV 3850 fps) into a dirt berm. This would disentigrate most bullets, but the X peeled back to the point that it looked like a piece of copper buckshot.
Being a handloader I love recovering bullets, but I learned long ago that bullets sometimes take strange, inexplicable paths once they enter the body of a game animal. Add to this the fact that when an animal runs the bullets can move further from the wound track and it can at times be very difficult to find a bullet.
I poked a little hole through a couple of doe with the original Barnes X and decided they weren't the best for deer size game. With everybody seeming to like the newer version I have been tempted to try them again. I like the idea of the bullet nose not deforming from recoil in the magazine, although I doubt it amounts to much. After reading this I think I will just stick with Partitions. They seem to work on deer size game as well as elk. If it ain't broke don't fix it I suppose.
Why is this odd? Sound like the bullet's working as designed.
I'm not sure I understand: we got one hunter claiming the TSXs don't work (with 80 gr bullets) because they don't "open up;" we've got another hunter (using 100 gr bullets and getting DRT animals) complaining they don't shoot through-and-through--I guess they open too much?
As to the one that didnt penetrate. Im sure it didnt actually disinergrate. That truely would be about impossible but heres what i found. When i approached the deer i saw a baseball sized enterance wound on the shoulder. I gutted it and took it home and didnt think anything more about it. When i skinned the deer i noticed that the wound didnt completely penetrate that shoulder. Not only was there not a exit wound in the deer but there wasnt even any evidence the bullet made it through the shoulder. I went back the next day to look through the gut pile but critters had cleaned it up. I looked around a bit for the bullet and didnt find it. My best guess is the bullet hit the shoulder and tracked down the leg bone. Now before you say did you check the shoulder to see if that happened that front shoulder was so shot up i just tossed it with the hide and dumped it at my range and it to was gone the next day. I actually didnt even completely skin that shoulder as it was nothing but red jello. When i shot the deer i notice that when it ran it ran like it had a broken leg but chalked that up to the shoulder wound but remember when we loaded it my partner said its lower leg was broke as it was flopping around so thats where i came up with the bullet tracking down the bone theroy. Its as good of an explination as i can come up with. Some may say that the deer died within a 100 yards so its hard to call it a failure but i would expect a 180 grain barnes out of a 300 wby to punch through a little 90 lb doe like so much butter. I actually talked to barnes about this and its the same conclusion they came up with. So i got away with on that little deer but i would have hatted to see the resultes of shooting something like a elk or moose and having that happen. Im sure i would have chased an elk or moose into the next zip code with that wound. So I too have seen it both ways. Not enough penetration and not enough expansion. Maybe these all were just fluke incidences. I dont know but i do know that im not doing anymore trials on living animals with them. Ive just had much better luck with standard cup and core bullets. Im up to 7 deer with my 264 mag now using 120 ballistic tips. A bullet that im sure someone will jump up and down about being to light or to lightly constructed but its worked for me. Ive shot them from 150 to just shy of 450 so ive tried them at both ends of the velocity range and every one of those 7 have been bang flop kills and every one has given me an exit wound. No excessive meat damage other then one i hit in the spine and about cut in half. But even then i salvaged half the back straps. Just read in a handloader article where the writer has had great luck with 120 ballistic tips on elk and moose out of a 7mag. It might be a load i try next year as ive got about 500 of them left from when i had my 730. He said that bullet was constructed even stouter then the improved ballistic tips because silouette shooters use alot of them. Dont know if hes right or not but even if they work like the 264s ill be happy. Threres probably a good reason why bullets have been made of lead for over a 100 years and if it aint broke i guess why change it.
I will be posting multiple pics of elk shot with 130gr tsx round from this years rifle season in Colorado and I will do my best to show the people here how a 270 with a 130gr tsx shoots clean through a big ole elk. One good reason for using solid copper rounds is to minimize lead ingestion by my family. Sometimes you wonder if a guy can remember which side of the deer he shot.
lead injestion? I just cant see how that would happen. Personaly i trim away any blood shot meat when butchering a deer and in all the years ive hunted and all the deer ive killed I cant recall once have a piece of lead in my mouth from it and if you for some reason and i cant figure how ever did get a piece of lead in your mouth your body cant digest it anyway and it would pass through you. Im an avid caster and shooter and about the only way to injest lead is from fumes from running your pot or smelting pot to hot or from fumes from indoor shooting or from handling things with lead dust on them and sticking your fingers in your mouth. You could swallow whole lead bullets and i doubt it would ever cause your lead level to raise. Might make going to the john a bit interesting though. By the way i have been treated for lead poisoning and this info comes from research i did and from asking doctors. My lead elevated lead levels came from sloppy practices casting. The average hunter and shooter will pick up more heavy metals in his every day life then he ever does from hunting, shooting or God forbid eating game. I cant imagine how much venison a guy would have to eat to cause his lead level to raise but i doubt there was ever a recorded case of lead poisoning that was atributed to eating deer. Castingdonkey i take it you got your internet name from the fact you cast. I have to wonder if your just trying to pull my chain here. Im not trying to flame you in any way but it just dont understand that statement.
i really would like to read the posts by the OP. However, long posts without paragraphing make me dizzy.
here comes the grammer police
I can vouch for the .25-06 on a shoulder shot bull elk. It was of course a single 117gr Nosler that was used. The result was a large mound of dead bull elk. Here in a couple weeks, we'll try it all over again with hopes of similar results.
I've missed animals and swore that I heard the sound of the bullet hitting them.
Not really, but....."Paragraphs are your friend".
And SO....easy to do (just hit enter).
Lloyd, I think in your research on bullets you missed something how to measure a bullets effectiveness called Sectional Density. Now, excluding shotgun slugs, the game classifications for sectional density are as follows:
<.200 SD = CXP1 game: varmints, coyotes, squirrles, small game, or animals under 50lbs
.200-.250 SD = CXP2 game: deer, antelope, mule deer, small elk, black bear, or animals between 50lbs-600lbs
.250-.300 SD = CXP3 game: elk, moose, buffalo, brown bear, or animals between 600lbs-1ton
>.300 SD = CXP4 game: dangerous game, cape buffalo, polar bear, lion, elephant, anything you need to stop yesterday, animals that are well in excess of 1-2tons in weight
80gr isn't the lightest you can go in 25 cal, the absolute lightest is 75gr, maybe 70gr. The 80gr TTSX has an SD of .176 in 25 cal. The 100gr TTSX has an SD of .216 which I'd say is a bit light for deer even in 25 cal. My deer round in my 257 Roberts is factory Federal +P ammo with 120gr Nosler Partitions. They have an SD of .260.
Mabe everything went right with the shot and the deer just fell some where
and you overlooked it? I've lost deer in tall grass or in thick woods. The bullet
should still get the job done regardless of what the peanut gallery here says.
I to like to try out different load combos and see how they perform in the field.
I'm looking foward to reading about your future tests.
Yes Lloyd lead ingestion. I understand that it is difficult to ingest lead by eating it that you just get a little from the suface area of a swallowed bullet. Like when bird shot goes through the breast of a bird and leaves a grey line. The amount of lead that I talk about ingesting is not the amount that you would feel in you mouth rather just the traces left behing from say a jacketed bullet like the remington CL that has a tendencie to explode halfway into an animal and spread lead all over the place. The Colorado Division of Wildlife has a lengthly write up on how they have found traces of lead throughout animals shot with lead bullet. Where when they use a round like the tsx or other non lead ammo's they do not find this.
The name CastingDonkey came from working deep sea fishing boats when people would screw up on a cast the crew and regulars would make a seeha noise to let them know it was a jackass manuver.
If god forbid me from eating game, I would end up in hell buddy. I don't know what happened to your deer I wasn't there, but I sure wish you would give those rounds another shot. Especially since you hunt everyday one more barnes round a little closer to the shoulder wont hurt anybody.
My problem with the original Barnes X was that it just poked a small hole through the deer and didn't expand. I found the deer which is how I know they didn't expand. But, the small amount of blood and distance traveled made it more difficult than it could have been.
If everything went right with the shot there would have been spatter where the deer was shot and a good blood trail to follow. If you can't find a good blood trail then everything didn't go right with the shot. Or, you need to work on your tracking skills.
ive tracked deer even in snow that showed absolutely no blood sign for 25-50 yards with a good hit using 243s 250sav ect. You dont get blood EVERY time and i think anyone who has shot a number of deer with smaller bored rifles will agree.
I've tracked deer shot with 7 and 30 caliber magnums that didn't show any blood for some distance. But, if you make a good shot with a good bullet that should rarely be the case with an exit wound. And, if you make a good shot with a good bullet and then say you couldn't find the deer something or somebody didn't do it's job.
Lloyd, what bullet made a baseball sized entrance wound (according to post #57)? I just haven't seen one of those yet, so I'm curious.
What speed exactly did you have the 80 gr. TSX's coming out of the muzzle at? And I forget, what distance did you think you hit this deer at?
I have shot a bear and a mule deer both with 80 gr. Tipped TSX's coming out at 3350 (out of a .243), and both were dead on their feet. The bear tumbled down the hill and died in seconds. The mule deer tumbled down the hill and died in seconds. Both had expected entrance wounds and roughly half-dollar exit wounds.
Barnes states to use one step-LIGHTER bullet than you would normally shoot when you are using their Solid Copper TSX Bullets!
So, if you would typically be shooting a standard bullet from a 25-06 that is 115 grains, and the next lowest weight bullet in the TSX happens to be 100 grains, go with the 100 grain bullet (just using those numbers as I don't have a 25-06, so I don't know the conventional bullet weights for that gun).
I also agree, the bullet most likely hit the lung(s) and didn't open much at all, which may be a pretty clean TandT shot!
Now, aim at his head or at his chest, shooting lengthwise through the animal and you would have dropped him right then and there.
I also agree that, if you are so confident in your shooting ability, then you know without a doubt that you hit this deer with a solid shot! You, therefore should not have given up after only two hours of looking for it. However, if you wonder what kind of a shot it was, and if you may have just grazed him, then, sure, stop searching after an hour or two as the deer is probably standing on the next ridge watching you look for him!
Don't blame the bullet. Instead, make sure every shot is a humane one or don't take it.
I handgun hunt with my 500 Magnum. I load Barnes 275g XPB (triple shock solid copper pistol bullets) Hollow-point Ashtrays. If I am not sure I can make a clean-kill shot, I am not going to shoot. That is part of my fascination with handgun hunting, to be a good rifleman, or in this case, a good "pistolman" one has to know his limitations and don't try to be a hero taking some shot that you are not 100% sure of!
bullet was a 180 tsx out of my 300 wby. the 80 was out of my #1 2506 and it was traveling at 3425 average speed over my chrono and the shot was at 200 yards give or take 10yards. Friendly dont fire just what do you consider a humane shot. the deer was broadside standing still at 200 yards off a solid rest. I routinely shoot them at twice that distance. I kind of get a charge out of all the so called expert shots here that jump down on someone accusing them of poor shooting and discount completely the fact the bullet could likely of failed. I can show you links to two other sights right now that guys are complaining about barnes bullets failing that i havent even gotten involved in and theres many posts in both of them with others complaining. Say what you want and think what you want. i was there and know what happened. Ive said my piece. Use them if you want and i wont. Youll eventually find out for yourself. The End
I have read countless raves on the internet by people who love these Barnes x bullets but they can have them.
I had a buddy use them hunting with me one season out of a 7mm magnum. He shot 3 deer with them. We found all three but I have never seen well hit deer travel so far after the shot. The results we noted were caliber sized entrance hole and caliber sized exit hole. It was like using a FMJ. Needless to say there was little to no blood to trail either.
Searching for deer in an Alabama briar thicket at night with a flashlight and no blood trail kinda sucks. Unless they have changed the design since then they just seemed too tough for our Alabama deer, especially if you are shooting them behind the shoulder. My buddy threw the rest of them he had left in the trash. He's using Fusions now with much better results.
I guess if I was hunting deer in an area where I might also get charged by a grizzly and need a deep penetration bullet then I might consider them. As this isn't a concern here in the south I'll stick with something that will actually expand on a deer sized animal.
Have I got this right? I'm to believe that a .30 cal 180 gr solid copper bullet traveling at close to 2700fps didn't penetrate the shoulder, and disappeared. Because of bullet failure. Which caused it to also break the deer's lower leg.
Two questions: has anyone got an alternate theory of what happened, and...
...What the heck killed that deer anyway?
what killed the deer was pieces of bone shattered off the shoulder. the gut pile looked like it had been hit by fine shot either bone did it or tiny pieces of copper or possibly both. My theroy is that it hit that shoulder bone maybe at an odd angle and being it i such a hard bullet deflected rather then mushroom and tracked down the leg and came out there or at least part of it did. I can only speculate though. there was no sign of any penetration of a bullet through that shoulder and i dont recall any open wounds on the lower leg but it was definately broke. Put a crater in that shoulder as big as your fist though. i can only report what I saw. It boggled my mind too. I would have thought it would cut through that deer like so much butter. Bottom line is anyone that knows me will attest that im a brutely honest guy. I have no bone to pick with barnes and sure dont need to make things up.
Separate names with a comma.