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Sturdy vs. AmSec - Finally Decided

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by Triumph, Oct 25, 2010.

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  1. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Some advice on the safe. If you are going to install it on cement, investigate the best way for a moisture barrier so your safe doesn't rust (no matter who the manufacturer is).

    Also, and this is KEY - make sure it's level. Otherwise the door will tend to swing either open or closed and it will be annoying.
     
  2. btn

    btn member

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    Funny coming from a guy with 1223 posts, all about safes!

    And if the comment's about her posing on their site, I'd like to remind you that we've all seen you pose in front of a few vault doors! :)
    And I think all the Sturdy, and Amsec owners, can agree on one thing and thats who we'd prefer to see posing in front of a steel box. Sorry Frank but you definitely lose on this one...
     
  3. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Good advice leadcounsel. Another thing you could try or add in addition which I have done and is working pretty well is going with a sacrificial anode (I.e., cathodic protection). I'm using aluminum plates with my safe but magnesium or zinc also work well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  4. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Come on guys let's not head off into the ditch on this one.
    Ford and Chevy must be proud of the rivalry that goes on between their truck owners.
    Honestly this whole warranty issue is pretty much a non issue to me.
    But that's just me talking here.
    I personally would be happy owning either of these gun safes.
    They obviously both have their redeeming values as the owners are making this known very abundantly.
     
  5. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Same here. I have no idea why he thinks the AMSECS are more money than a Sturdy. Even if they were, I still would have purchased the AMSEC for its elegant look, and great security.
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    leadcouncil - Thanks for the tip. I will make sure it is level. I was planning on mounting it on a horse stall mat to make a seal. I can level the concrete first. Rust is a big issue here - the garage floors sweat in the Summer.
     
  7. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Well let's step away from the safe for a moment and look at the locks.

    All UL rated locks are designed to relock internally when exposed to certain conditions. You slam a door with an electronic lock on it, and it could lock up tight. You slam a door with a mechanical lock on it, and it can break off the cover setting off the internal relocker. You can also trip the external relocker.

    So either A) You shouldn't be slamming the door, because you will damage it, or B) Sturdy has designed their door to be slammed, thus eliminating the security provided by the relockers.

    You can't have it both ways.

    Funny you mention that. UL conducts a drop test on safes with fire ratings. It's 30 foot, while heated, on a pile of rubble. One of the most severe tests that UL does as it relates to fire.

    AMSEC actually builds safes that have passed this test. Where's Sturdy's?

    You shouldn't do these things to any safe. But just about every safe manufacturer agrees with AMSEC, and as a safe tech, I agree with them as well.

    With that said, there are several safes that I could do similar things to and would get simillar results.

    Yeah, I've explained that. I trade my expert knowledge of safes for the expert knowledge of firearms that I get here on the site.

    Interesting point though. I have discussed several safes, vault doors, quick access hand gun safes, and other lock related issues in those threads. Some people are just beating the drum of one manufacturer.

    In addition to discussing safes, I have also assisted members who have had problems with their safes. I've helped troubleshoot, assisted with warranty related issues, and referred members to local professionals for both locksmithing and moving/delivery assistance.

    If you want to compare my contributions as it relates to safes to those of you, the engineer, or Sturdy, please do. I'm confident that my record will back all of this up.

    We can compare that to the engineer. I was having a similar debate, where you were also involved, on another forum. He got involved in that discussion over there. During the same dates that heated discussion was going on, he joined here. Since joining, the vast majority of his posts are arguing with me about Sturdy.

    I wasn't referring to her modeling. Simply her popping up here.
     
  8. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Actually, yes I knew all about that test and I'm not even a safe tech. Even though I think Sturdy has a safe that is ideally suited to pass that test (I.e., light weight insulation (ceramic and glass fiber insulation), a relatively thick shell (7ga) and an extremely strong door and locking mechanism) I know they don't want to be raped by the cost of qualifying each of their safes in order to put the UL sticker on them. Remember, UL is only a third party test lab, they are not a governing body of any kind (although some government agencies allowing UL to establish some standards because they don't want to be bothered with establishing them.)
     
  9. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Really? Rape? They would be the only company with a UL fire rated gun safe. It would be a gold mine. There is currently no gun safe on the market that will pass this test. Sturdy's wouldn't pass it, Liberty's wouldn't pass it, AMSEC wouldn't pass it, Prosteel wouldn't pass it, etc.....

    I know quite well what they are. I also know that they're really the only trusted testing facility for safes here in the US. Trusted by the government, trusted by insurance companies, and trusted by everybody who uses products with their labels on them.

    I have never seen a UL rated safe fail when exposed to the conditions it was rated for. UL really is a worst case scenario tester. It doesn't get any better than this (The RSC label being the only exception).
     
  10. heeler

    heeler Member

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    That is a very likely scenario Adirondack if we are talking UL RSC rating.
    But that U.L. fire rating is extremely tough to pass and on this one a1abdj is more than likely right on the U.L. testing.
    That U.L. fire rating is a tuff sob to pass.

    Edit to add...My BF would not even pass a U.L. 1 hour fire test.
    Although it's smaller cousin in the non gun safe,"safe" definitely does.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  11. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    I've just deleted more than a dozen posts because I have had enough of the bickering. No more of this childish behavior, or I will ensure that some of y'all will no longer be THR members.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    adirondack -

    Can you break that down in laymans terms for me. Would this be a better idea than the horse stall mat?
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    Also griding on how to level. I assume it would be a good idea to make sure the rubber mat has full contact with the bottom of the safe.

    I don't think allowing any airflow to reach the bottom of the safe will be a good idea. With the humidity & salt in the air any air touching exposed metal will rust quickly. Also not an option to have the metal touch the sweaty garage floor. This is what led one of the other posters to suggest the horse stall mat.

    Let me know if you have a better idea.

    Thanks
     
  14. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Out in my shop, I have a weight room with painted steel equipment over a concrete floor. I use elastic hydrocarbon polymer mats created from a Hevea brasiliensis between the concrete and equipment. No rust at all.

    Isn't it annoying when people use big dumb words to try and make themselves look more impressive? :barf::barf::barf: LOL.

    Translation: Rubber mats work fine in my location. Your mileage may vary in your location.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    Adirondack - I guess I also have to consider the following. It would be nice to get it up at least 3 or 4 inches.
    Thanks - heeler

    a1bbdj - had suggested bolting a metal support to the floor & then bolting the safe to the metal support. Any suggestion from you guys on what that would look like. In other words if the bottom of the support was a sheet of metal that would be easy to anchor. The difficult part is anchoring the safe to the metal support. I guess you could still use sleeve anchors as you would not have access to feed a bolt through the metal support. You only access would be through the safe.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    Keizer -

    Hevea brasiliensis?
     
  17. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Triumph,a metal stand could be fabricated out of channel steel with bracing so the safe could sit on that and if holes were cut or drilled in the bottom portion of the stand then there would be no problems anchoring the stand to the floor using concrete anchors.
    Other holes in the top bracing would allow you to bolt the safe to the stand.
    You could use red Locktite on the threads to keep someone from loosening the nuts or after the safe was bolted to the stand another plate could be welded to the front of the stand that would then make the bolts holding the safe to the stand unaccessable.

    Just an idea.
    Others can probably think of something just as good or better I am sure.
     
  18. rondog

    rondog Member

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    a1abdj - Do you know if AMSEC or any other safe mfg. offers a pre-made steel riser for their safes, so a person doesn't have to fabricate their own? I'd love a nice big safe, but it would have to go in my garage, and I'd prefer it to be off the floor at least 4" if possible. I'd most likely go with AMSEC or Ft. Knox, because there's local dealers for those here that can deliver and install them. No way I'd try to do that by myself.
     
  19. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Rondog,I dont know the material it is made from but FT.Knox has a safe pedestal that can ordered as an accessory.
    Get in touch with them.

    Edit to add...I looked over at FT.Knox's website and that pedestal appears to be carpeted and raises the safe 5 inches.
    Ready made!!
     
  20. BADUNAME17

    BADUNAME17 Member

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    "misuse, or abuse" to us, means we will not repair damage due to one accidentally dropping it out of a pickup, using it like a wrecking ball, etc... however, Terry has been known to fix this type of stuff for free anyway. We are very lenient.

    Your more than welcome to abuse our safes such as:
    • slamming our doors
    • slamming our doors with the boltwork in the locked position. -Video coming soon.
    • stacking contents of the safe so that the door must be forced shut, because you can always dislodge the dead bolts with reverse force if you need to. Video

    It wont effect our lock system, or the warranty. We have never had a safe fail because of linkage problems. As you know, our deadbolts are guided.


    You can have it both ways with our safe. Frank you really need to call us and educate yourself on our safes before making anymore false statements. We have relockers in the door that are very effective. They are not designed to engage at the drop of a hat( such as slamming the door). Sheriffs departments, evidence rooms and other high use areas cannot have a safe that is sensitive to such abuse.


    Loose screws are considered a defect to us.
    When you order our hard plate upgrade, it would take a locksmith twice as long to get into, and this is why we wouldn't cover it. We don't sell many hardplate upgrades because we screen everyone to make sure they really need it, as well as, to make sure they understand we will not cover the locksmith opening if one was needed.
    We like the ability of a locksmith entry if one was needed for our customers. Some people do not, and for them we have the hardplate upgrade.
    S&G pays to open safes if their locks fail. According to S&G, we are one of the harder gun safes for a locksmith to open on the market with our standard hardplate as it is.
    Many gun safes on the market have loopholes in their security, that locksmiths can exploit out of the hard plate area. The elimination of these loopholes makes it more difficult to open a door that is locked shut, much like Sturdys design. All this is a moot point if you have a safe with linkage that can actually jam (such as accidentally clamping down on a strap from a rifle) under normal use in the first place. In fact, the majority of repairs on safes have to do with linkage problems, but not Sturdy Safes.




    Anyone here is more than welcome to call us, for factual information about our safes and warranties.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2010
  21. BADUNAME17

    BADUNAME17 Member

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    We can manufacture and install parts in any safe, legally, because many safes you can't buy parts for. In order to fix some of these safes, you would need to have access to equipment like: mills, laths, shears, press breaks, etc.

    It's not the manufacturers who come to us for repairs, it's the customers who are (for example): past their 1 year warranty mark, or who's warranties were voided for things like changing the combo/ "abusing" the safe/ cosmetic alterations made of the safe, or simply had unhonored warranty issues.

    What has this got to do with the quality of our safes anyway? We feel these forum people don't want us to bicker over things that are irrelevant.
     
  22. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Not that I'm aware of. The few "factory" risers that I have seen are wood. If you have a local welding shop, I'm sure building one wouldn't be that big of a deal. You may want to consult with your dealer ahead of time, as the design of the riser may be affected by the safe you choose.

    I've sold safes made by at least 40 different manufacturers. I've never had one fail because of a linkage problem either.

    The lock itself is designed to relock if abused. I could show you photos of cracked and broken covers on mechanical locks due to slamming. There's a reason the locks are designed this way. They certainly don't go off at the drop of a hat, but can certainly go off by slamming the door.

    After all, the shock of a door being slammed isn't much different than the door getting beat on by a sledge hammer.

    It is a defect. A defect in craftsmanship, not materials. You should clarify your warranty if this is the case.

    How long would it take me to put a 1/4" hole through it? Assuming I don't have to change a bit, I can get through your average hardplate in less than a minute. I can get through moderate hard plate in less than 5 minutes. There is some really, really nasty stuff used in very high security safes that would probably take 30 minutes to pop through.

    What criteria is used to determine who needs upgraded hard plate?

    All gun safes open pretty easily for me. Even the ones with ball bearing and all the other goodies. Of course this could be a result of using locksmiths. Somebody who opens more cars than safes tends to have a harder time with the safes.

    A loophole indicates a purposely installed weakness. I can't think of anybody who would knowingly do this, as it would probably result in lawsuits. There are certainly manufacturers who fluff their products to a great extent.

    I've never run across a jammed safe where the linkage was the culprit. I have seen items in the safe falling behind and blocking the linkage. I have seen the linkage pressed against contents where the pressure on the linkage bound the lock. I have also seen the doors jammed with items in the door frame, that may put undo pressure on the bolt work.

    With all of these situations, placing excessive pressure on the handle is not the correct course of action, and may result in further issues.

    What parts are you replacing that the manufacturer can't supply?

    I work on ALOT of safes. I rarely have to machine parts. When I do, its usually for something 100 years old.

    I'm glad you asked about the relevance.

    When I posed the question on the other forum I mentioned, I got responses for four safe techs from California, one who believe it or not is an attorney. Although they said the state doesn't really enforce the law, the consensus is that you are required to be licensed to work on safes that you do not manufacture yourself.

    Since you do not have such a license, and if one is in fact required, you would be breaking the law by engaging in the repair of safes. Not to worry though. They said that any complaint to the authorities would probably only result in them sending you a letter asking you to apply for your license.

    Criminals shouldn't be dealing with safes. Proper licensing helps prevent that from happening. Operating without a license could put you in the group that the license is trying to prevent.
     
  23. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Is there some downside to having relockers that are less sensitive? I know little of the specific mechanics and wouldn't mind understanding the subject a bit better.
     
  24. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    You'll have to excuse me for using a photo of a Liberty, but that's what I found quickly on Google.

    relocker.jpg

    The red arrow in this photo is pointing to Liberty's external relocker. It is essentially a spring loaded piece of steel designed to block the bolt work of the safe from moving into the open position.

    [​IMG]

    In this photo you're looking at the interior of a typical combination lock. If you look just about the lower screw hole, you will see a brass arm that pivots just over that screw hole. That is the internal relock.

    In the event of an attack, the purpose of both relocks is to freeze the lock and the boltwork in the locked position. The external relock is usually attached to the lock itself. If the dial is hit, the safe door is jarred, or the safe is tipped over, the external relock can fire. The internal relock will only fire if the cover of the lock is broken off. This can also be caused from a direct strike to the dial, or a hard impact (tipping the safe over can cause this).

    You obviously don't want the relock to go off for no reason. However, you don't want to prevent the relocks from functioning as they should. The operation of the external relock is entirely up to the safe manufacturer's design. The internal relock is designed by the lock manufacturer, and tested by UL as part of the rating, and its operation should not be limited.

    Is sensitive better?

    Insurance companies, UL, and commercial consumers seem to think so as many high security safes can be found with this:

    G6636open-432x634.jpg

    Although not a direct shot, you'll notice multiple cables running around inside the door. These cables are attached to a piece of highly tempered glass that sits between the lock and the door of the safe. This glass can break if the safe is beaten, tipped over, or if an attempt is made to drill into the lock.

    None of these relocks should fire during normal use of the safe. Although you would have to "abuse" the safe to get them to fire, it is possible. If the relock is designed to fire during a tipped safe scenario, you wouldn't have to slam the door very hard at all in order to get it to fire.
     
  25. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Thanks Frank for a very good explanation of what and how the relockers work.
    Funny thing is a while back when I saw those pictures of that import safe you are selling I actually thought those cables worked the bolt mechanisms!!
    Now I find they are part of the glass relock mechanism.
    Good show.
     
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