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Sturdy vs. AmSec - Finally Decided

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by Triumph, Oct 25, 2010.

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  1. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    G6636open-432x634.jpg

    For me, that looks like it will more likely lock me out than a theft. The tempered glass doesn't look very well supported as you might see in a higher end safe such as a Graffunder or Brown; I hope that's not a higher end safe.
     
  2. 78tsubaki

    78tsubaki Member

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    Sturdy Safe Decals

    Triumph,
    Once you ask for and apply the "Sturdy Safe Minute Man Series" label and decals your safe will be just as great looking as any safe on the market!
    Best of luck with your new safe. I really appreciate my Sturdy Safe and the red blooded Americans that built it for me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  3. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    You can't even see the glass, or what supports it, in that photo. You'll notice that photo is one on my site, and I try not to show anything that would compromise anybody's security.

    I can assure you it is supported, set up, and operates in a very similar fashion to those found on real high end safes. Although Graffunders and Browns are nice safes, neither of those would be considered a high end safe.

    It is actually a converted commercial safe, set up with a gun safe interior. It offers a level of security above that of most gun safes on the market, and they start at just under $2,000. I'm not offering to sell anything here, just addressing the issue of its "high endness".

    It would only lock you out if you were abusing it, and that would not be covered under the warranty. In fact, it would cost you more money to open due to the increased difficulty.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2010
  4. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    I've never been to your site, I haven't had a reason to go there so I don't know where you got that picture. I've seen some higher end safes that have the tempered glass fully supported by rubber gaskets around the perimeter just to make sure that some shock to the door doesn't cause the glass to shatter; what you show isn't fully supported which would make me concerned if I were the owner; just my opinion.
     
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  5. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    With all the videos that Sturdy does showing them beating the crap out of their safes, and the relockers not going off, I would question if they work at all. What exactly has to happen for the Sturdy relocker to fire? Obviously beating on them with a hammer, dropping them on their sides, and prying on them don't fire it like I would hope.

    So I too would like more infor and maybe some pics of how it all works. I myself prefer something more sensitive like I have in my AMSEC.
     
  6. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Rather than speculate (and the last two posts do seem to be doing exactly that), I recommend that anyone interested in the topic actually investigate the respective issues and post their results.
     
  7. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Going back to this letter sent to Sturdy by Mitchell who had her house robbed on 11/21/2009

     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  8. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Maybe Sturdy safe will post with a more detailed description of how, and when these relockers work.
     
  9. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Then how the heck is the relocker not firing in all those Sturdy videos? They are abusing them worse than a criminal would. And I know the relocker isn't going off because Terry is always showing how the bolt work still functions fine at the end of the videos.

    Is he leaving the relocker off for videos sake?
     
  10. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Which safes? Manufacturer? Model?

    Your opinion is noted. My opinion is that you have no idea what you're talking about as it relates to this issue.
     
  11. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Hmm, is that a personal attack?
     
  12. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    No, and you shouldn't take it personally. You don't build safes. You don't work on safes. You don't break into safes. The fact is you have no idea what you're talking about as it relates to some of these issues.

    You going to tell me which high security safes you were privy to see the glass plate relockers in? I would like to see what support system you are talking about.
     
  13. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Illustration of Brown Safe's Glass Relocker

    Opt_features_sec_glassRelock.jpg


    I can't find the picture that I saw of Brown's re-locker but here is an illustration from their website. As you can see, they are showing a supported frame around the parameter of the tempered glass.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  14. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    See? This is the problem when using Google to become a safe expert.

    I can't speak for the left hand side of Brown's illustration. If I had to guess, they are making a reference to the glass breaking in a similar fashion to a broken window.

    If you look at their drawing on the right, of the glass, you will see a set up that is one of a few versions of glass relock mounting. The little dotted lines represent a glass plate. The four little dotted circles represent holes in the glass where it would be attached to the door.

    In this instance, the glass is supported only at the four corners. This has nothing to do with glass breaking while closing the door, and everything with the maximum glass coverage beneath the lock.

    Of course I was confused when you said "higher end safe" as Brown would not be in that category.

    Here's another example of glass mounted in a real high end safe, with a TRTL-30X6 rating. This safe probably sold for $20,000 or more. I had to make the pic a little small and crop it quite a bit. I don't want to show the inside of the door, even though I'm not going to mention the manufacturer.

    The glass on the gun safe shown above is mounted in an indentical fashion, although the type of relocker is a bit different.

    glassrelock1.jpg
     
  15. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    You wanted to see an example of what I was talking about and I showed it to you.

    There is a big difference between a door with a glass re-locker that weighs 1 or 2 tons to a door that weighs a fraction of that; there will be much less shock on a really heavy door as compared to a relatively light one since you can't accelerate a heavy one to a high velocity due to the heavy weight.
     
  16. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Yes, and I thank you for sharing. Of course the example you provided showed something different than what you had described. You were mistaken, and it's alright. I just didn't want anybody else who wouldn't know better to be misled.

    I don't know what this has to do with our discussion. None of the relockers shown in this thread are on doors that weigh anywhere near 1 or 2 tons.

    Regardless, mass will do you in every time on a heavy door. Know what happens when a 20 ton vault door gets slammed (at low speed of course)? The glass blows out the back. At least I've seen it happen. These doors don't get closed hard very often, so I only have one example.

    You also shouldn't slam safe doors. It's not good for the safe, and it's not good for the lock.
     
  17. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Opt_features_sec_glassRelock.jpg


    (adirondack) I've seen some higher end safes that have the tempered glass fully supported by rubber gaskets around the perimeter just to make sure that some shock to the door doesn't cause the glass to shatter; what you show isn't fully supported which would make me concerned if I were the owner; just my opinion.

    (Adirondack) You wanted to see an example of what I was talking about and I showed it to you.

    (a1abdj) Yes, and I thank you for sharing. Of course the example you provided showed something different than what you had described. You were mistaken, and it's alright. I just didn't want anybody else who wouldn't know better to be misled.

    No my example showed exactly what I described. Read it again if you need to ...
     
  18. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    We've gone well past 'what is a relocker' back into the 'I want to be more of an expert than you' exchanges that are frankly embarrassing to the forum.
     
  19. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Your example showed a "tempered glass fully supported by rubber gaskets around the perimeter"?

    Your example shows a plain piece of glass held in place at four points. A rubber gasket around the perimeter would prevent the device from working as intended.
     
  20. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Triumph said:
    Triumph, essentially cathodic protection works like a battery. When two metals are in contact with each other in a corrosive environment, the one that is more electronegative will be the one that corrodes. So what this means is if you attach a 'sacrificial anode' to the safe, the safe will rob electrons from the anode when it needs them which will keep it from corroding. Of course, there is a circuit involved here so the anode needs to be connected to ground as well in order for the electrons to flow but if done right, it will help reduce the chance of rusting not an ideal situation since the circuit is a weak connection (i.e., not submerged in earth or water) What I have done is use aluminum plates to shim up my safe, I used self tapping screws to make an electrical connection from the safe to the plates and so far it's working pretty good and my safe is right on the concrete (my safe is in my garage and I live in Northern NY so lots of road salt, water and slush). All I do for maintenance is clean off the oxidation from the aluminum plates a couple times a year. CB900 (I think that's his name) suggested using the sacrificial anodes used for outboard motors which are made of magnesium. Magnesium is the most electronegative of the metals so that will work best if you can get a hold of some. Use the mats as well just remember if you do use a sacrificial anode attach the anode to the safe then to ground (ground rod or even the concrete itself) to complete the circuit.
     
  21. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    The insides of safes don't look very pretty because no one really looks at them. It's like pulling off the interior panels inside your car and seeing the lumpy sheet metal and slathered paint and soundproofing material underneath. I've seen the back of a Graffunder door and it's very plain jane and all business. Lots of hardplate and welds. This example had a thermal coupling tied to two mechanisms which activated in case of torch attack. One blocked the active boltwork, preventing you from retracting the active boltwork even if you figured out the lock. Assuming you somehow defeated that and managed to retract the boltwork, you were still in trouble. The secondary mechanism fired a bolt into the frame that isn't part of the active boltwork system so you're still SOL because you've now got a random bolt somewhere on the safe that will not retract at all so you still can't gain entry. No fun for the safe tech to repair, even less fun for the would-be thief.

    I've only had the luxury of seeing the internals of one very impressive (to me) safe and it was a picture of a 10cu.ft TXTL-60 being offered for $49k used with all sorts of active and passive relockers. Frank obscured the manufacturer of that safe to prevent IDing it but I can see the rack assembly rides a roller bearing when the pinion engages. Must be glassy smooth to operate the short throw boltwork. The Graffunders I've messed with are very smooth but their rack-and-pinion drives aren't running on roller bearings like the picture you posted. Even then, they'll probably last forever. I guess little details like this pop up when you start spending the big bucks.
     
  22. UncommonSense

    UncommonSense Member

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    Warranty exclusion

    First post, I'll introduce myself more later maybe. :)

    I'm on the precipice of buying a gun safe / RSC and have been reading these various threads (and occasional near-peeing contest type tangents) with interest.

    I was leaning toward Sturdy given their impressive videos, but the many comparisons to the AmSec BF series on THR had me looking at them in particular in the sea of previously-perceived-to-be-homogenous choices. I've seen a Graffunder in person and was very impressed (love that noise they make when you try to close them fast; you can't slam them closed!), but it's just a bit more cash than I ought to be spending on this right now. I would love to find a used one, but I know that's not likely.

    I entertained the idea of and am somewhat still considering a Zanotti so I can relatively easily put it in my finished basement, but the leadtime (~8 months) and material thickness (or thinness, relative to the other ones I'm considering) are drawbacks in my view. Also they are farther away from me, so the shipping cost compared to a traditional safe from the west coast is double. I suppose if they were as-thick as the regular safes, I would choose it quite easily. I also considered building a vault and putting a door in, but I'm trying to reel it back to what's most likely to actually happen here. :)

    I like thick metal and an generally a fan of overkill when it comes to most things. I spent about a day so far thinking and researching the option of buying a used jewelry safe (TL-15, TL-30) and fitting my own interior. I thought I could fab up a nice fire blanket to drape over the exterior if I wanted to have some fire protection. I had the idea of building a furniture-like wooden cabinet around it, lined with some type of fire/heat resistant material. I may still go the used "real" safe route, if I don't just bite the bullet here soon and "press the easy button."

    I'm currently leaning heavily toward an AmSec BF6636 (satin black with black nickel hardware), bought from out of state and shipped to a local dealer who would charge me a few hundred to install (locate) it. I called the dealer who mentioned having a 20 year old (pre-Liberty ownership) National Security Magnum with some impressive features but a dated interior configuration and color, for about $500 less than the new BF6636.

    I seriously considered the used NS Magnum, but then became convinced that the extra money for the new BF6636 is worth it to get the lifetime warranty, better interior, better fire and theft protection (I tend to believe any later of concrete, even with perlite in it, is going to be more of a hassle for a potential "wannabe pro" thief who's willing to try to get in than a few layers of sheetrock or ceramic textile type material would be. By the way, I imagine the ceramic material Sturdy uses does a good job for the purpose.)

    I guess this post is my chance to comment on all the stuff I read. :rolleyes:

    I think if I wasn't as concerned about fire then the decision would be more of a slam dunk in Sturdy's favor (or even more likely, a used jewelry safe or similar, made of thickish plate steel for cheaper if I can find one), but when you add back in the fire insulation it's a much closer call. The greater cu.ft./$$ with closely equivalent steel thickness and IMO superior fire protection with added burglary resistance of the solid composite material has got me leaning the way I am, toward the BF6636. If it wasn't such a pricey upgrade or if it were free, I might opt for pearl white, but the black nickel on satin black sounds nice too.

    ANYWAY :cool:, the actual point of my post was to point out something about the warranties being discussed that I didn't see mentioned. The AmSec warranty is pretty specific when it discussed the types of burglar attacks that are covered, "drill, pry, punch," while the Sturdy warranty just reads "burglar attack." (not verbatim necessarily) I heard from the Zanotti guy that they have had only two breaches ever and they were both with a torch. That to me seems the more likely type of successful attack (or plasma cutter, etc), since it's a bit quieter than a skilsaw with a grinder blade or something similar. It seems to me that the Sturdy warranty doesn't differentiate between the breaching methods and exclude torch attacks like AmSec does. Did anyone else notice that, or is it a non-issue?

    I do think a torch attack is pretty hardcore and it is arguably unlikely. However, I think between the various constructions methods that the BF series comes closest to what would be needed to thwart or at least delay the thieves' progress with that type of attack. Well, except for the stainless that Sturdy offers as an extra cost upgrade, that is. There is a youtube video of the U.L. certification test of a Meilink TL-15 safe that seems to show the efficacy of such a layer of concrete. Actually, I just had another thought, if the Drylight layer in an BF safe was reinforced with chicken wire or something similar, that might be even more of a problem. Or maybe not because it would just add a matrix of weak points where it could more easily fracture.

    Okay, that's enough for now. :)
     
  23. UncommonSense

    UncommonSense Member

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    Actually I hadn't yet read that long, ugly, thread that got locked when I posted this morning.

    I had picked up somewhere that the BF6636 had 7 (3/16") gauge outer wall steel thickness (1/2" outer door steel thickness). But I saw some mention in the threads that they are actually 11 gauge outer with 16 gauge inner (formerly 10 gauge outer, 14 gauge inner). I can't find where I got the 7 gauge reference, so I'm assuming I just got confused and it's wrong.

    That being said I'm back in a more neutral point in the decision. For 10 gauge, even though it's not supported by drylight or another layer of steel, I'd lean more toward Zanotti. For a conventional safe I'm leaning more toward Sturdy. I know they are different animals. I should be able to hide the Zanotti better than I can the Sturdy. Layers of security vs. brute strength.

    I explored the used TL safe option and was quoted $3.5k for a 15.4 cu ft TL30, plus $150 shipping plus a guesstimated $300 to install the ~2500 lb thing. I'm turned off by the $$/cu ft, compared to the deals it looks liked I could get (those are all sold or too far / wrong coast).

    I did find a used "custom" TL30 (but unrated) safe that is the size of a gun safe at 27.2 cu.ft. and 60" inside height. Quite a nice fit, composite construction with 3.5" composite body and 6" door thickness with 3" "solid barrier material" would I would assume or wonder if it's steel. It's close enough that the installers themselves could do the whole delivery (no freight company in addition). However, my hang up on that option is that I don't know who made it and it doesn't sound like it actually has a U.L. rating (just "built to the TL30 specs" I suppose). The seller has paperwork from its construction, but supposedly since it's custom it hasn't been rated. I don't know if that's "a problem" (If I'm spending that much cheddar on a "TL30" safe, I want the full insurability that would tend to come with it, not that I really know what I'm talking about here. Another way to put it is that I would want the TL30 safe to be able to be sold to the next guy who needs such certification, if you know what I mean. If not I want to pay less for it for the risk/unknown.). I may just go check it out (across town quite a ways) and ask to see the documentation before I continue seriously considering it among the options.

    I know I'm comparing "apples and elephants." Maybe I'll start my own thread. It seems like the last thing THR needs is another gun safe thread tho'. :banghead: :barf: :what:
     
  24. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    I agree that a torch attack is incredibly unlikely because:
    1. I don't have a torch so they would have to bring the equipment
    2. I don't have anything valuable enough that an expert with a torch would waste his time at my safe
    3. Using a torch would risk destroying the contents which are mostly flamable or setting off my powder which could risk death!
     
  25. UncommonSense

    UncommonSense Member

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    In my case, I plan to have a torch someday, although I don't have one currently (other than one of those propane / map gas ones).

    I don't think #2 and #3 contribute quite as much to the unlikeliness, since

    #2 they wouldn't necessarily know what's inside, and criminals have nothing to lose by destroying the contents (they would cut your convertible top to get to your GPS, for example, why not?), other than spending extra time to find out, and

    #3 they wouldnt' necessarily know what's inside, to have any fear of explosion.

    #4 not to mention, criminals don't necessarily think like the rest of us (or they would get jobs and contribute to society), so you never know what they might do (considering they are already doing something we wouldn't do by wanting to get into the safe).

    #5 conversely, if they are not stupid or crazy and they are instead logical and cautious like non-criminals (I think criminals can be logical and certainly all of them are not exactly the same), they might assume that you wouldn't store powder in a safe, since (at least I thought I'd heard) you're not supposed to do that because you are creating a "bomb" by having it in a sealed metal space.

    I'm not saying it's "worth" spending the extra dough on torch resistance, which it may not even with those considerations, but those are my thoughts on the mindset of the criminal and likeliness of an attack that could involve a torch. I think a torch attack is somewhat more likely than a skilsaw attack, just because of the additional noise the latter would add, for the neighbors to hear.

    Last night I noticed that Sturdy is offering a 5 gauge body upgrade on their 3627. I may end up going that way since that seems very cool.
     
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