Suddenly cornered by unarmed person?

[anthillsinrome]

This has likely been discussed before, but I'm unsure of how to dig it up with a search and it seems like it might be worth reiterating.

Let's say you stop by the office after hours and after doing your business inside, exit through one of the side doors that locks from the outside. Just as the door locks itself someone comes around the corner pretty fast right towards you while mumbling some sort of vague insult like "motherf***er". Let's also say that they're good-sized (e.g. you aren't going to be able to walk all over them or swat them aside) and that it's night or early morning, so there's nobody around in general, not in the office, or in the parking lot a few hundred yards away where your car is. As a last point, you can't see any weapons on the person, and both their hands are plainly visible.

So this person is thirty or forty feet away, closing fast, seems hostile. What do you do? (Besides taking preventative measure in the first place, like using the main exit and avoiding doors that lock you out.)

This scenario could bear itself out in several other ways as well. Let's say I'm stopping by a friend's house out in the country (neighbors are all miles away) to pick something up. No one is home. You ring his doorbell, no response, so you walk back towards your car. As you're heading to your car, the same character as above comes out from behind some trees and bears down on you, they're between you and your vehicle, and are approaching quickly with no weapons.

 

[HighVelocity]

I'd make tracks at a 90 degree angle to the persons path. If he changed course to intercept me then I'd have to consider him a threat and take appropriate measures to insure my safety.

 

[1911 guy]

Predators are predators.

Most folks would tend to try to retreat. If no wep is visible, stand your groud and assume an agressive stance. If our bubba don't back down, you're gonna wind up in a fight whether you tried to get out of it or not. Predators act like predators whether they've got four legs or two.

 

[AnthonyRSS]

If somebody attacks you for no apparent reason, you should shoot them. Barring that, you should knife them. Or at least hit them.

3 Rules:

1. Hit First
2. Hit Hard
3. Hit Repetitively

This goes for any armed/unarmed combat.

Everyone needs to learn how to throw a few good punches.

 

[hso]

At 30 or 40 feet you are already out of time. You don't know if they're alone. Just because you can see their hands doesn't mean they won't produce a shiv without warning.

If you don't have a clear and immediate safe haven don't retreat! You have to go on the offensive immediatly.

I would recommend instantly "woofing". This involves a hyper agressive verbal assault with a combative body posture to intimidate your assailant. You won't just stand your ground you'll advance on them stealing the momentum. Often this is such a role reversal that it can deter any further hostile behavior on their part. You want to dominate the individual and produce the impression that you are someone to be feared.

This will also buy a little more time to draw a weapon or find a better tactical positon. But don't hesitate and don't be nice in fear of making a mistake. If someone's going to piss their pants let it be the other guy. Draw your weapon and drive the other guy off if possible or get into the fight.

 

[WayneConrad]

Tough one, and my nightmare scenario. In Arizona, this would not be a justifiable shoot, as the person has neither demonstrated intent to kill me (insults don't count) nor displayed the means to do so. It might be a good time to have some pepper spray on hand.

 

[WT]

Try to retreat in a safe manner. If not possible, be prepared to go to 'hands on' contact.

So far, nothing in the scenario justifies the use of deadly force.

 

[sm]

Good points already made.

Stairwells are one area one should watch, especially with colder temps and folks getting out of weather.

In my case it was a stairwell leading to parking deck of a hospital. We are not allowed CCW in hospitals.

Two gentleman. Short version I tossed one some $1 bills in shirt pocket, the other what left of a pack of smokes and cheap lighter. I tossed in a manner to allow me a "safer passage by".

I had my knife and ceramic coffee mug. Still the sound of a stairwell door closing locked shut is not good. Another good tool is a cane. I can fake a limp as good as anyone.

In this case, the gentleman wanted the goodies, to busy scrambling to get to worry about me. I basically threw off any "intentions" they had by being the first one to take an action and be assertive.

"Hey guys, cold huh? <toss, scoot, gone> Engage without engaging as they say.

Steve

 

[BsChoy]

If somebody attacks you for no apparent reason, you should shoot them. Barring that, you should knife them. Or at least hit them.

3 Rules:

1. Hit First
2. Hit Hard
3. Hit Repetitively

This goes for any armed/unarmed combat.

Everyone needs to learn how to throw a few good punches.

Anthony I have no idea waht the laws in AZare like but if you did that (shoot them) to an unarmed person in NY you would get 20 years for it minimum...here in NY you have a duty to try and retreat if no exit exists then and only then can you meet the force they apply...if they have a weapon and try and kill you then by all means end their life...but if they only have their hands and its one on one you have to fight it out.

 

[AnthonyRSS]

Of course you don't shoot unarmed people, but if someone is going to attack you, are you going to let them hit you before you shoot? Like all scenarios, there are many variables, and if we were to discuss all of them, we would be here for 34 years. Some like situations would warrant shooting; some would not. A fist is a deadly weapon.

I am not going to willingly fist fight with somebody who attacked me. They may whip me, and that is not a chance I am willing to take. I am going to prevail, with whatever means necessary. I might run, if I could. All depends.

 

[grizz5675]

I was quite the fighter when i was younger but now that im getting older i have a very bad right knee and a bad left foot and am not near as fast as i use to be so i guess with that in mind ,i would pull my 45 out fast aim it ,being in my stance an verbally command the person basically to stand down .If that person still came at me i would most likely take appropirate measures to stop him and of coarse I would imagine this guy would be found on the ground with his weapon near by.

 

[hso]

There is no way to know if your attacker us unarmed or not in this situation because things will happen too fast to be sure enough to bet your life on.

There is no way to know if he will stay unarmed.

30 feet it too close to be scrambling around looking for a place to retreat to and won't do any good unless you can get a locked door between you and them since they will continue to come after you.

Your gun probably won't do you any good at all unless you've trained in H2H in getting a shot off while under physical attack. I say won't do you any good because your purpose in carrying it is to keep you from getting killed. Odds are if you're not trained to shoot the guy off of you while keeping him from killing you you're probably going to end up dead with him.

You can get bailed out of jail, but not the morgue.

 

[BullfrogKen]

You can get bailed out of jail, but not the morgue.

Many, even most, states allow for no bail in capital murder cases. Think hard about how long you are willing to stay in jail awaiting trial for killing a man under circumstances like this. Shooting an unarmed man is a hard thing to justify, and you need to be prepared to await your trial date in jail until this gets resolved.

Some folks have legitimate disparity of force circumstances. The majority of us do not.

Scenarios such as this one are the subject matter of good Force on Force training and quality unarmed self defense skills. Nothing in this scenario suggests is has risen to the level of deadly force.

If all you've got is a hammer . . .

 

[odysseus]

As others have said here, you need to be careful with a visibly unarmed person if you are considering using deadly force. I think common sense needs to be brought to bear. It's not an easy call, it's one with peril for both sides. Obviously the issue after an encounter is if you reasonably felt you had no other choice but to shoot the assailent in self-defense - especially since you had the "upper hand" in this scenario. However that's easy to analyze later, not very good when a surprise is facing you right in front of you. I myself have always felt that I would keep trying to put space between me and an assailant if at all possible (assuming I am NOT at my home), and do whatever I can beforehand to avoid deadly force. It's a plan, never had to really act on it. I do prefer to live than die.

I have had this happen to me before when I was not armed with a firearm, and it went the right way that time, the person turned away and walked away. I sensed someone approaching me one night as I was unloading my vehicle at a parking lot of an apartment complex, and I immediately turned and locked eye-to-eye with him, and took on a defensive stance. This was a large person, with no weapons present and was not talking, but it was a menacing situation I took immediate threat to. I was never sure what really was going on - even if he thought I was someone else. LE officer who came by after I called it in knew the person though as a character of some trouble in the area and went out searching for him.

 

[strambo]

I'd start to retreat whether I had a good place to go or not. Reason; 1) gain a little distance 2) it will give you tactical suprise when you suddenly reverse and attack 3) witnesses will see your physical motion going away from him 4)hey, it might help?

Now this retreat could only be a step or two, left hand goes up in a submissive looking position to him/witnesses but a ready position for me. Right hand starts to access weapon if I feel it is appropriate. Once you decide to attack, do it with violence of action and take him out. If you're very good at H2H, maybe you'll just engage with hands and be prepared to access gun in fight if necessary.

If you aren't comfortable with unarmed skills and/or the disparity is too great then draw and take care of business as necessary. The ball will be in his court now whether you have to shoot or not. You'll be drawing after taking a few retreating steps and making a subissive gesture though. You gave him a chance to back off and any/all witnessess will confirm it (assuming they're neutral-if they're hostile it won't matter).

 

[anthillsinrome]

Well it's (kind of but not really) comforting to know that others also see this as a fairly difficult situation.

Tough one, and my nightmare scenario. In Arizona, this would not be a justifiable shoot, as the person has neither demonstrated intent to kill me (insults don't count) nor displayed the means to do so.

And that seems like the problem. On one hand you have no real legal reason to begin taking action against this person...and it could just be someone having a bad day, or a situation you totally misread...so jumping into action and going on the offensive could be trouble.

I guess it's all about instincts. If yours tell you that this guy is up to no good, then you gotta go with it.

As some of you have made me realize, the situation also emphasizes the value of more...intermediate forms of defense (hand to hand, pepper spray), that will allow you to deal with a potential threat, but not go so far as to take a life or threaten to take a life.

"I would recommend instantly "woofing". This involves a hyper agressive verbal assault with a combative body posture to intimidate your assailant. You won't just stand your ground you'll advance on them stealing the momentum. Often this is such a role reversal that it can deter any further hostile behavior on their part. You want to dominate the individual and produce the impression that you are someone to be feared."

Interesting suggestion. Haven't heard of this before, and I'd rather do something like this than resort to drawing a weapon.

 

[Fun2Shoot]

So this person is thirty or forty feet away, closing fast, seems hostile. What do you do? (Besides taking preventative measure in the first place, like using the main exit and avoiding doors that lock you out.)

You are usually surrounded by items that can be used as defense tools to slow up and stop an attack or kill if required.

A sturdy pen in the hands of an angry and energized defender can be used like a knife to impale windpipe, eyes and rammed in the ribs repeatedly. Any heavy and graspable object like a large ashtray, pop bottle, planter pot etc can be used to bludgeon the creep to the floor. Containers of liquids ( scalding coffee ) or handy household chemicals can be thrown into the face and eyes of the attacker. Pick up an extention cord and start whipping them or charge the perp with the intent of strangling them with it.

You get the idea. Take the time to look around the spaces you inhabit. Pick out a few useful objects and make a mental note for the future. Or add some of these tools to your rooms. No one will know that they are your "Doomsday" defense tools.

Attach-Attack-Attack and don't hesitate even for a moment.

 

[hso]

I think the point that is being overlooked is that when you discover someone within 30 to 40 feet is bearing down on you you won't have time for all the avoidance suggestions.

I ask each of you to mark off 40 feet from a corner where you can not see what or who is around the corner. Ask someone like your partner to come around that corner like they're pissed at you and want to chew you out for leaving their favorite shotgun out in the rain. Ask them to pick something random up in each hand and not tell let you know before they come around the corner. Clock how much time it takes for them to march up to you and how long it takes for you to identify what it is in each hand. It amounts to only a couple of seconds in which you've got to determine that they don't have anything in their hands that's a threat. Now add the surprise delay that we'd all experience if this were dark with a stranger and without preparation.

I've never said kill the guy dead right there. I have said react as if you may need to. If you woof and he breaks of you're not going to shoot him in the back. If you get your weapon out and bark him into breaking off you're not going to shoot him then. But you must react immediately as if you were going to have to defend yourself with deadly force so that your assailant knows you are not a tastey snack.

 

[gripper]

I'm kinda with AnthonySS on this one...I HAVE gone H2Hwhen braced in such a fashion, but I was NOT CCWing at the time,and I DID know they were going to try and rough me off ( They were talking each other up before they were aware that I could hear them (parking garage in Lowell a few years back). In the scuffle one of them dropped a knife before I was aware he had palmed it,so I got REAL lucky hitting him on the move(hook to the heart and a head butt to the face).I think Reliable had the security contract for that garage,I recall an elderly guy moving away and calling someone on the radio.
None of us, me or the two guys lingered. I still drank back then ('97)& was probablymore interested in getting space and a few shots between me and the scrape).Funny...the second guy never really got into the fight;;things happened quick,but I think he had a good chance to move on me when I was occupied with his friend.Big time lucky for me,because I'm NOT 'Turro Gatti or Mickey Ward.

 

[strambo]

One problem with "woofing' him is to the casual observer it makes you look like the aggressor. Even if he is coming fast, you would probably still have time to simultaneously raise your left hand, step off line and reach for a weapon. If you didn't have even time for that then specific response plans won't matter because you'll just be in a fight with no time for anything pre-planned/consciously decided.

Any discussion of appropriate responses has to assume that there is time to consciously make a choice and take an action. So you decide now some good ways to respond in various situations if given the chance. If they attack too quick, then it is all up to your subconscious to react based on prior training.

If you have time to consciously decide to "woof" him (think of agressive words and speak them), you have time to step off line and say "back off" or "don't come any closer" in a forceful tone while raising non-dominant hand and gettin' a weapon (carried or improvised) ready to go.

When police respond to fight calls they usually assume both parties are at fault because they usually are. Two macho idiots being stupid. I wouldn't want to do anything to put me in that category in the eyes of police or witnesses. A forceful "Get back!" or "I don't want trouble!" reinforced by a confident demeanor will have the same effect on the scumbag while helping immensly with the Police if it gets ugly. You can have it both ways.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I've never said kill the guy dead right there. I have said react as if you may need to.

I didn't mean to single you out. Your comment was used to bring to the foreground of the discussion the problems with using deadly force on an unarmed man.

You have introduced a lot of what-if's that weren't presented. The scenario presented makes it clear we've concluded he's unarmed. I believe the salient point of the discussion is what to do when in a situation we cannot retreat from, have before us an aggressor, but the level of violence presented falls somewhere short of deadly force.

Every situation is case specific, because we as individuals are specific. What works for me . . . might not work for him . . . definitely won't work for her . . . is out of the question for him because he cannot perform the task for physical restrictions . . . and on and on.

A 150lb 18 yr old puffing his chest bluffing like he can break bad with a 300 lb prison experienced fighter is bound not to work. So would a 65 yr old man with arthritic knees. We cannot use someone else's responses. We must tailor and develop our own.


Back to the salient point. To this point, the interaction is still undefined as to intent and purpose. To justify a course of action that elevates through the various levels of force, more information is needed. This can be gathered by direct questioning - a direct, "What do you want/Can I help you, SIR?"; by physical response - you pushed past him, he re-oriented to you and again closed; announcing your intentions to perceived violence - "Leave me alone or . . . ". Any meaningful action on your part that serves to gain information on his motive and intent will allow you to ARTICULATE why performed the actions you chose to take. Tricks and tape loop chatter do little to help, and do not gather information to help articulate your justifications.

Up to this point, what we are presented with is an angry man closing in on you. There could be any manner of acceptable, although RUDE, reasons why he is behaving this way. We need to determine his motives. At the point he escalates the confrontation, you have the information you need to justify your course of action.

 

[Fun2Shoot]

...... Your comment was used to bring to the foreground of the discussion the problems with using deadly force on an unarmed man.

No attacker is really unarmed so to speak. It is not a matter of whether or not they have a "weapon".

Thousands of people are strangled bare-handed around the world every year. Kicks to your face and head will kill. Being punched in the face and falling and smashing your head on the concrete will cause death.

I have been beat to unconsciousness (with bare hands) and I can tell you it won't happen twice. Screw the loud commands or taking some posture to show force. I've walked the mean streets of several major citie's worst urban rat-holes. Have it in your mind that you will take no bull from anyone and have a plan and tools to back it up. That's all the scum bags of this world need to see. You may be attacked anyway, but at least you can do some serious damage to them in the process.

 

[Geno]

When on campus...

I can not carry where I work. Ergo, when entering or exiting (when few coworkers are around) I carry my pepper spray in-hand, finger on the button (inside my coat pocket). In my case, the worst that can happen is they get "seasoned" accidentally. Now, if I were somewhere that I can carry my gun, the story changes quickly. But, since this was the office, the office I answered. Hope it never happens.

Doc2005

 

[BullfrogKen]

Thousands of people are strangled bare-handed around the world every year. Kicks to your face and head will kill. Being punched in the face and falling and smashing your head on the concrete will cause death.

What precisely in the above described scenario has led you to believe you are about to face strangulation or a beating?

 

[Legionnaire]

Situations where you can't carry are good places to have a one-hand folder on your person. You can palm it while closed when leaving places such as the one described, and be armed much faster if needed than drawing a gun from concealment.

A key issue in defense is also recognizing disparity of force. It isn't just due to a weapon. It can be being outnumbered. It can be facing a person bigger than you. It can be facing a person the same size who is screaming that he knows karate or some other martial art and is going to "kill you." If one believes the assailant has the ability to do great injury, he has the opportunity to do so (and you've said that he is already inside 20 yards), and is acting in a way that makes one believe he or she is in jeopardy (closing aggressively, verbally threatening physical harm, etc.), one would reasonably be "in fear for one's life" and likely be justified in using lethal force.

In the scenario described, the questions seem to revolve around whether or not the potential assailant has the ability (he doesn't appear armed) and whether he is putting you in jeopardy. Like you said; tough call.

But as I began, this is a good situation to have a folder in hand.