Suddenly cornered by unarmed person?

[Strings]

Ummm... maybe I'm just a fool, but I'd start off with my standard "What's up?" before doing ANYTHING else. More information is needed before making an irrevocable decision that could result in someone loosing their life...


Oh... this gem:
"Have you ever been the victim of an attack? I am not trying to be provocative or rude, but having you butt kicked by a perfect stranger will change your world view of criminals in very short order."

Try facing down a loaded .38 because a drug dealer thinks a friend of yours was stealing from him (boy, violent action saved THAT one!). Or having half your face destroyed by an AWOL Marine that figured you had some money in your pocket. The reconstructive surgery at least kept me from looking like the Elephant Man...

Even given the above, I'd STILL start with something low-key, to gain more info. I may at the time slip my hand to a weapon, so that I can react quickly to whatever further info my "What's up?" provides. But I'm not going to take an immediate agressive stance, or pull a weapon, or anything else until I have some further hint that this person IS a threat...

Oh... disparity of force? The above mentioned surgery means I'm in SERIOUS trouble if I ever get hit in the face. There's "fear for my life" right there...

 

[Fun2Shoot]

Oh... this gem:
"Have you ever been the victim of an attack? I am not trying to be provocative or rude, but having you butt kicked by a perfect stranger will change your world view of criminals in very short order."

Try facing down a loaded .38 because a drug dealer thinks a friend of yours was stealing from him (boy, violent action saved THAT one!). Or having half your face destroyed by an AWOL Marine that figured you had some money in your pocket. The reconstructive surgery at least kept me from looking like the Elephant Man..

Do you ever ask yourself why you keep ending up on the losing end of the encounters that you have described?

Think about it. That's what I had to do. I hung out with ex-con scum and other low-life trash for years, until it dawned on me that if I didn't want to be constantly on guard and getting in fights, I should stay out of areas where drug dealers and other hostile types congregate, like shot and beer bars and low-budget pool halls. Once I put a whole state between me and my former "friends", my encounters, like Hunter Rose descibes, ended immediately.

*** Above post edited to be extra nice on Christmas day (later poster *cliffstanc* didn't like my manners) Most of the bad stuff that occurs in one's life has mostly to do with the bad choices made by that person. I include myself first.

 

[Ryder]

I'd do what I've always done in these situations. Get an object between us and stand my ground. They know that navigating this trigger point puts them at a disadvantage when I am already in a defensive stance. So far I haven't had hurt anybody doing it this way. They give up and walk away eventually.

I won't run or back down. Getting hit in the back of the head or tripping over something is bad news. I don't see fighting as fun and games. If it's violence they want it's been my intention to give it to them. As it's turned out that's not exactly what they had in mind afterall. Good for all concerned.

In some cases I don't know and never do find out their motivation. Other times it turns out to be the misunderstanding of a closed mind. The only thing I am sure about is that I didn't give them a reason to act like that.

 

[cliffstanc]

Fun2Shoot: I think your comment to Hunter Rose was both rude and irrelevant. How does making the criminal attacks on him his "fault" (and do you know the details of the attacks and Hunter's personal life so well that you can assign blame to him?) mean that he's somehow wrong about the steps he would take in this hypothetical scenario?

FWIW - I, also, would not immediately attack until I knew more about the man's intentions, for the reasons many - including Hunter Rose - gave above.

- Cliff

 

[Fun2Shoot]

Fun2Shoot: I think your comment to Hunter Rose was both rude and irrelevant.

I edited my above post so as not to offend your sensibilities on Christmas day.

Many of the subjects discussed on this forum require direct and seeming "blunt" responses. We're not discussing the proper positioning of the salad forks and the soup spoons at a formal dinner here. Much of this stuff is pure survival.

If you think that I am "rude and irrelevant", that's your prerogative. This is a forum after all. But I will keep calling them as I see them and I can tell you something from years of a tough and wearing life; my evaluations of most subjects in life put me and my family on the winning end of most of life's difficult challenges (thank God). And you can take that to the bank.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Ummm... maybe I'm just a fool, but I'd start off with my standard "What's up?" before doing ANYTHING else. More information is needed before making an irrevocable decision that could result in someone loosing their life...


Oh... this gem:
"Have you ever been the victim of an attack? I am not trying to be provocative or rude, but having you butt kicked by a perfect stranger will change your world view of criminals in very short order."

Try facing down a loaded .38 because a drug dealer thinks a friend of yours was stealing from him (boy, violent action saved THAT one!). Or having half your face destroyed by an AWOL Marine that figured you had some money in your pocket. The reconstructive surgery at least kept me from looking like the Elephant Man...

Even given the above, I'd STILL start with something low-key, to gain more info. I may at the time slip my hand to a weapon, so that I can react quickly to whatever further info my "What's up?" provides. But I'm not going to take an immediate agressive stance, or pull a weapon, or anything else until I have some further hint that this person IS a threat...

Oh... disparity of force? The above mentioned surgery means I'm in SERIOUS trouble if I ever get hit in the face. There's "fear for my life" right there...

Dare i say...anyone with a disability or afraid of getting hurt/killed has no business getting into altercations in the first place..Combat knows no boundaries, ethics or otherwise...if you even think that it would be good idea to take up a defense when the situation calls for otherwise, then you don't know what you are talking about or you have been fortunate so far... i hope to never meet my match...i hope to come out on top, but i am at peace that i've would have done my best. anything afterthat will no longer be up to human hands, so i won't worry about it ever...YMMV

 

[Strings]

*sigh*

First off: don't worry about "not hurting my feelings on Christmas". I doubt you could hurt ,my feelings with an axe and a mission statement, and Chriatmas has nothing to do with me

>I hung out with ex-con scum and other low-life trash for years, until it dawned on me that if I didn't want to be constantly on guard and getting in fights, I should stay out of areas<

Well, I'll grant that being where I was in my first listed encounter was kinda my fault: I KNEW when I walked out the door into the middle of it that the guy was a scumbag. However, he and several cohorts were targeting my bro, and I wasn't gonna leave the odds that way...

With the second case, you're right again: I shouldn't have been walking back to the trolley in downtown San Diego, past the county courthouse, at 5 in the evening. That's just asking for trouble...



>Dare i say...anyone with a disability or afraid of getting hurt/killed has no business getting into altercations in the first place...<

And what's the correct justification for the use of deadly force by a citizen? I usually hear it articulated "Fear of severe injury or death"

Wow... y'all can read LOTS into a little bit...

 

[cliffstanc]

I edited my above post so as not to offend your sensibilities on Christmas day.

Hey, don't worry - I wasn't offended. Thanks for the effort, though.

If you think that I am "rude and irrelevant", that's your prerogative.

Not at all! This is the High Road, after all, and while my post count is low I do know that one thing we don't do here is attack other posters. I said that your comments were rude and irrelevant. And perhaps instead of rude I should have used the word "presumptuous", my apologies. You assumed things about the circumstances of Hunter's attacks, and - in your own words above - "That would be an assumption. Not wise to operate on assumptions".

I said they were irrelevant because they didn't really have anything to do with the scenario posited - a rapidly approaching hostile, yet apparently unarmed, man. Not, "While hanging out with your scumbag friends, you..." etc., etc. And note that the worst of HR's attacks occured on the street in public (presumably by a stranger, though he never said) at 5pm. Kind of hard to say that was his fault due to his lifestyle.

(Incidently Hunter - only if you don't mind talking about it! - will you tell us if the trolley attack was like the scenario we're discussing? Did you know if your attacker was armed before he came up to you?)

Fun2Shoot, I wholeheartedly agree with your advice not to associate with lowlifes, as it greatly increases the chance of being in bad situations. It's just not what we were talking about here in the thread. If you'd like to make a new thread titled "Reducing risk in your life" or whatever, I'd be very interested to read about what you (and others) have done.

Oh, and Merry Christmas everybody!

- Cliff (still full of ham)

 

[Strings]

>(Incidently Hunter - only if you don't mind talking about it! - will you tell us if the trolley attack was like the scenario we're discussing? Did you know if your attacker was armed before he came up to you?)<

Not at all. Didn't really fall like the OP's scenario though...

I had gone to dinner with a lady friend, and was walking back to the trolley after leaving her at her scooter. I was wearing jeans and a sport coat, and was across the street from the county courthouse (those of you in Snd Diego can find it easily enough). Felt my Spidey-sense start to tingle, and started to turn when I got the "flashbulb effect" (those who have been hit hard in the head will understand). Next thing I knew, I was laying on the ground, my eyes crusted shut with blood, and no idea how I got there (first three question out of my mouth: "where am I?", "why am I on the ground?", "where are my cigarettes?")...

 

[Fun2Shoot]

...Fun2Shoot, I wholeheartedly agree with your advice not to associate with lowlifes, as it greatly increases the chance of being in bad situations. It's just not what we were talking about here in the thread. If you'd like to make a new thread titled "Reducing risk in your life" or whatever, I'd be very interested to read about what you (and others) have done.

Good idea.

 

[BullfrogKen]

To say that our past experiences are not germane to present action defies logic to the extent that I will just say this with all due respect: Real life survival must happen quickly and instinctively. Your hesitation may get you seriously injured or killed.

Absolutely, our past experiences do indeed influence our decision making process.

However, flaunting yours on your sleeve as service stripes does not make your crisis resolution skills any more or less valid than any of ours. Directly challenging my experiences rather than addressing the appropriateness of my response was your intent, and in case my civility caused confusion over the inappropriateness of citing credentials, I'll be more direct.

Past battles do not influence the circumstances as described. Nothing in the initial scenario as described could be interpreted as incontrovertible evidence of an attack. You have interpreted it as such. I suggest your prior life experiences possibly colors your analysis.

If I can give you one piece of advice in all seriousness; your biggest flaw and potentially fatal flaw, is that the seconds you waste trying to microscopically dissect a fast unfolding threat will be your undoing. Real life assaults do not occur in classrooms where rubber knives and red plastic guns are used. You need to get violent and get violent quick.

There is time for violence of action and times where temperence and restraint is appropriate. The whole aim of discussing such scenarios in a scholarly setting and rehearsing encounters in force on force training with rubber knives and red guns is to discover the effectiveness of our actions, discuss their outcomes, and explore alternatives. I do not consider such deliberations detrimentary flaws.

I will conclude with this. Based on my academic knowledge of criminal sociology and my real street experience in high crime venues, I have total confidence in the appropriateness of my statements.

I concede your credentials and fluency gained thru familiarity with disreputable segments of our community reinforces your certainty and emboldens your response. Evaluated by a neophyte, the encounter as presented suggests more ambiguity.

 

[yy]

Situations where you can't carry are good places to have a one-hand folder on your person. You can palm it while closed when leaving places such as the one described, and be armed much faster if needed than drawing a gun from concealment.

This is a good point. potential witnesses may miss the folded knife. but then so is a pistol behind your butt if you draw from a 6-oclock position.


I'd like to share something new I learned.

My sister went through some very minimal safety training. The instructor encouraged the attending women that they should carry training knives. The intent is to handle the knife with proficiency and project the I'm-not-your-victim message.

 

[Fun2Shoot]

....Past battles do not influence the circumstances as described. Nothing in the initial scenario as described could be interpreted as incontrovertible evidence of an attack. You have interpreted it as such. I suggest your prior life experiences possibly colors your analysis.

Mr. Bullfrog, I appreciate your analysis, even if I don't fully concur with it. But you hit the nail on the head when you said that "my prior life experiences possibly color your (my) analysis" That is a 100% correct statement. Here, have a cigar!

I must keep stressing this one very salient point about the intial stages or "moves" of an aggressor on his target (as in this theoretical scenario). If the perp is going to try and get within reach without alarming you, they will try to effect a calm and non-threatening posture, ie, walking up to you with a smile and maybe something like " I think that your tire is going flat". You are distracted now and thinking " Oh, this guy is trying to help me". He closing on you and you or I are not ready to defend ourselves fully.

I don't want to belabor this hypothetical to death, so I'll just say that, if as in the original topic scenario says, a hostile and cussing person is closing fast on me or you, it already IS threatening and would hold up in court testimony as a scary, fear producing event. Run if you can, but that may only embolden the attacker, particularly if the target is a woman. And since I am over 50 years old, should I deplete my energy by running, only to be caught 100 yards later, exhuasted and winded and now unable to mount a strong counter attack?

No, based on my experiences of being assaulted in the past and several close calls, I still say this one calls for a totally aggressive response immediately to at least show the attacker that you are ready to defend yourself.

If this person is meth'ed-out or crack'ed-out or a mental case, you or I have the odds stacked way against us already. We may be killed no matter what we do. Stories like these are in the newspapers on a daily basis. Think of this: LEO's are killed every year under just such scenarios as are in this post topic and they are trained fighters with a half dozen weapons on their person.

Food for thought. Pardon me please if I am too harsh, but we are talking about survival in this post-modern and dysfunctional culture that few have the luxury of being able to live outside of.

It IS a jungle out there. Be ready to NOT die.

 

[joab]

your biggest flaw and potentially fatal flaw, is that the seconds you waste trying to microscopically dissect a fast unfolding threat will be your undoing. Real life assaults do not occur in classrooms where rubber knives and red plastic guns are used. You need to get violent and get violent quick.

Yep +1

Predators look for prey
If he is just in abad mood and cussing the inanimate door he may learn some manners from the encounter.
If he is violent you may get to learn how to breathe through a tube from you choose not to act

 

[jmf]

Let's say you stop by the office after hours and after doing your business inside, exit through one of the side doors that locks from the outside. Just as the door locks itself someone comes around the corner pretty fast right towards you while mumbling some sort of vague insult like "motherf***er". Let's also say that they're good-sized (e.g. you aren't going to be able to walk all over them or swat them aside) and that it's night or early morning, so there's nobody around in general, not in the office, or in the parking lot a few hundred yards away where your car is. As a last point, you can't see any weapons on the person, and both their hands are plainly visible.

So this person is thirty or forty feet away, closing fast, seems hostile. What do you do?

Like others in this forum, I have a good deal of experience on rough streets and back alleys. Over the years I have had two experiences very similar to the one you described.

In one case, the guy was upset about something, probably didn't even notice me, and he just rushed on by.

In the other time, the guy came asking for help (there was an accident).

Turn this situation around. If you were going to attack someonebare-handed, would you start out cussing from thiry or forty feet away?

 

[yonderway]

If you have to take out a perp with lethal force and that perp has fathered children, you are probably doing a good service for those kids.

But he's not a "perp" or an "offender".

He's just somebody who was walking in your direction, not making any overt threats, not displaying any weapons, and yet you would make the assumption he wants to harm you and thus you are justified in using lethal force?

That, sir, makes you the perp and Mr. Body the "victim".

 

[wheelgunslinger]

(see signature)
I usually carry a Kubotan on my keychain, a motorcycle helmet in my hand (full face), and a brass knuckle style belt buckle in my coat pocket. I don't believe in losing with grace.
But, that's why I train in the use of firearms as well as in Martial Skills like Tai Chi, Hapkido, and Aikido. Realistically, very few situations need you to exercise your pimp hand, and fewer still need you to pull your smokewagon and end people's lives. However, there's no need to be defenseless just in case of situations like this.

What would I do with this guy? If he was aggressive I'd beat him down anyway it took me to do it. You charge me, and I hurt you.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

*sigh*

First off: don't worry about "not hurting my feelings on Christmas". I doubt you could hurt ,my feelings with an axe and a mission statement, and Chriatmas has nothing to do with me

>I hung out with ex-con scum and other low-life trash for years, until it dawned on me that if I didn't want to be constantly on guard and getting in fights, I should stay out of areas<

Well, I'll grant that being where I was in my first listed encounter was kinda my fault: I KNEW when I walked out the door into the middle of it that the guy was a scumbag. However, he and several cohorts were targeting my bro, and I wasn't gonna leave the odds that way...

With the second case, you're right again: I shouldn't have been walking back to the trolley in downtown San Diego, past the county courthouse, at 5 in the evening. That's just asking for trouble...



>Dare i say...anyone with a disability or afraid of getting hurt/killed has no business getting into altercations in the first place...<

And what's the correct justification for the use of deadly force by a citizen? I usually hear it articulated "Fear of severe injury or death"

Wow... y'all can read LOTS into a little bit...

i've known men whose feelings were hurt by a "Biatch" slap enough to warrant them taking deadly force against the supposed offender. YMMV

 

[wolf_from_wv]

I take it up a notch...

Imagine:

Location: You are at work. You are standing behind an L shaped counter. You are in the 90 degree corner. The guy is on the other side of the short side at the end. 3-4 steps and he can be standing where you are.

"Customer/Patron": Has been picked up 2 times for stalking an ex-girlfriend, one more and he's in jail. He's talked to you before, told you about how the current boyfriend threatened him about coming near the girl, and how he would "pop a cap" in the new boyfriend if it came to punches. He's been banned from a couple shopping centers by security. He also doesn't take his medication. He is allowed in because he hasn't done anything.

Situation: He's come up to the counter to ask about using the phone. He's been told several times in the past that he's not allowed to use the phone. He's getting more agitated as time goes by.

Weapons: maybe a pen, keyboard, mouse, barcode scanner, "wall wart" power supply if you can get to it... NO guns or pepper spray allowed. Primary security is local PD - 911.

Response:
a. Let him use the phone, and hope it stops at that.
b. Hope you can make it 6 feet to the solid wood office door, shut it, and call 911.

What I did: I think it was at the peak, as sure as I am typing this, I thought he was going to come around the corner. I let him use the phone. I don't get paid enough to see how far people are willing to go... I then sent an email to everyone in the building, the main branch in another city, and a couple people I knew who aren't affiliated, so that if anything did happen, someone "outside" would know. No CC or BCC, everyone in the TO box... The email had short simple sentences - complex thought was out the window. After the email, I had to take a break and crash - let my hands stop shaking. If I couldn't have made it to the door, I'm not totally sure who would have "won", but it would have been something to see.

Aftermath: Guy was still allowed back in, because he hadn't done anything. :banghead: He finally came in drunk one night when someone else was working, and was banned from the building. Supervisor said that he didn't really think the guy was capable of doing anything, but noted my concern, and then changed his opinion after he heard other things about the guy.

I'll tolerate just about anything... The "odd" people usually seek me out... I think he was the first person, I ever wanted banned. Not the last, unfortunately...

 

[joab]

Weapons: maybe a pen, keyboard, mouse, barcode scanner, "wall wart" power supply if you can get to it... NO guns or pepper spray allowed. Primary security is local PD - 911.

Anything can be a weapon. Iused to work at a liquor store and have friends who work at convience stores now.
Ever noticed the unopen cans of soda or little bottles of Cold Duck behind the counters.
They're not there for our breaks, they make great short range projectile weapons

 

[bojangles]

All this on and on about shooting and stabbing. In my lifetime..I've been involved in several hand to hand engaugments, while carring concealed. I never ever thought about pulling a gun and shooting someone over a fist fight!!

This stabbing stuff. If you ever have to do it just once. I bet you won't want to ever do it again. This is a messy,,messy very unpleaseant thing!

 

[cz75bdneos22]

All this on and on about shooting and stabbing. In my lifetime..I've been involved in several hand to hand engaugments, while carring concealed. I never ever thought about pulling a gun and shooting someone over a fist fight!!

This stabbing stuff. If you ever have to do it just once. I bet you won't want to ever do it again. This is a messy,,messy very unpleaseant thing!

male talk most part...everyone has fantasized at onbe time or other about shooting, stabbing, fistfighting someone...that is until you actually walk the walk in combat...then you won't be so gung-ho thereafter if you are still alive to tell the story...Some people no matter what advice, knowledge or experience you pass on to them..still have to piss on the electric fencefor their own "what's it feel like" kind of experience..YMMV:banghead:

 

[Manedwolf]

You are usually surrounded by items that can be used as defense tools to slow up and stop an attack or kill if required.

A sturdy pen in the hands of an angry and energized defender can be used like a knife to impale windpipe, eyes and rammed in the ribs repeatedly. Any heavy and graspable object like a large ashtray, pop bottle, planter pot etc can be used to bludgeon the creep to the floor. Containers of liquids ( scalding coffee ) or handy household chemicals can be thrown into the face and eyes of the attacker. Pick up an extention cord and start whipping them or charge the perp with the intent of strangling them with it.

You get the idea. Take the time to look around the spaces you inhabit. Pick out a few useful objects and make a mental note for the future. Or add some of these tools to your rooms. No one will know that they are your "Doomsday" defense tools.

Attach-Attack-Attack and don't hesitate even for a moment.

One of the things I always do before venturing into "T" subway station is to stop at a ubiquitous Starbucks or the like and get a large coffee...which comes far too blazingly hot to drink right away, hot enough to cause serious scalding burns. Then I get on the train with that.

One, I like coffee, and two, if needed, popping the lid off and throwing a cup of near-boiling liquid in an attacker's face is a good way to ward them off!

Oh, and as to knives? Good luck to you in court if you use that, or even pull it. CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS! It's still considered a deadly weapon in many, and in others, you can get hauled off just for carrying some types. For example, mine:

--------------
New Hampshire -

- 159:16. Carrying or Selling Weapons. Whoever, except as provided by the laws of this state, sells, has in his possession with intent to sell, or carries on his person any stiletto, switch knife, blackjack, dagger, dirk-knife, slung shot or metallic knuckles shall be guilty of a misdemeanor; and such weapon or articles so carried by him shall be confiscated to the use of the state.

---------------

I just really wish someone would adapt the Pepperball concept to a pocket-sized version, sort of a derringer, so that you could stop a threat non-lethally when it's still far enough away to give you options...not just when they're right on top of you. The smallest launcher you can use for those currently would be something like a Sheridan paintball pistol, and that's still too bulky for concealed carry.

 

[birddog]

Oh... disparity of force? The above mentioned surgery means I'm in SERIOUS trouble if I ever get hit in the face. There's "fear for my life" right there...

+1.

I am a pretty big guy, and probably look like I shouldn't be messed with. However, in 2003 I underwent 2 brain surgeries for subdural hematomas (due to a fall on the ice and resulting spinal cord injury, long story). I'm healed, but every now and then feel the odd twinge of pain in my head that makes me pretty solid in my opinion that NO one is ever going to hit me in the head. If I am confronted by an individual or group (something I of course do my damndest to avoid, as everyone should), I am not going to wait until I am being pounded on to draw my weapon. One blow from an assailant puts me in fear for my life. I will not give an attacker the benefit of my doubt. If I raise a fist, there will be something in it.

 

[losangeles]

I carry 2-oz, sometimes 4-oz pepper spray, and practice spraying occasionally, and practice a fast draw. It has a range of 15 feet. I'm pretty confident about this tool, and I like the fact I don't have to off anybody with it, and it has the ability to be applied against multiple opponents at close range.

If for whatever reason the BGs can get through the spray (they'll be impacted to some extent and that should slow them down), I'm also confident in my unarmed abilities. Granted I'm a geezer now, but I was always at the top end of the bell curve in physicality --- almost turned pro in boxing, world-class powerlifter (#2 in the world at one time for my age group) recruited by Div I for football, years of different martial arts, recruited by all the service academies (sports and academics, too) --- and grew up in tougher areas of LA, where I had more than my share of fights against bad guys (and never lost).

In LA, a CCW is hard to get, and I'm not going to carry against the law. Besides, I found the best solution is living in an area where you don't need these kind of problems. That means being successful enough in something to gain wealth to move into an area where there is almost zero crime. It works, too! When I was growing up,there was crime on a DAILY basis around me. Now, the crime stats in my city show practically zero crime each year.

It's a different world! People's priorities in this kind of place is a lot different than living in Compton, South Central LA, or even in some of the tougher areas. Heck, it's different than your ordinary middle-class neighborhood, where although crime is low, it still occurs with some frequency.

I've done my work to reduce the possibility of a violent attack. It's worked for me and my family just fine. Occasionally, I have to go out "there". I won't CCW illegally. With me and my pepper spray, I'll give it my best shot to win, and if that's not good enough, oh well. I won't CCW, off someone, and spend time in the slammer for a few years. I've grown up with people in jail, and the slammer and I don't mix -- I'd rather be dead in that case.