Suppose a nuclear device is detontated in Manhattan...

[M1911Owner]

Suppose a nuclear device is detonated in Manhattan...

I've been reading with interest another thread about nuking an Arab city to make an example out of them, with the supposition that they will then go away and leave us alone. I am one of those who believe that that is a really, really bad idea, because that makes us just as bad as they are.

That discussion, however, has induced me to ponder a very real possibility:

Suppose we wake up one morning to the news that a nuclear bomb has been detonated outside the New York Stock Exchange. The bomb was of about 5 kilotons yeild, obliterating a couple blocks around ground zero, causing a million plus deaths in Manhattan, and pretty much damaging beyond repair all the buildings in a half-mile to a mile radius.

There is basically no forensic evidence--the bomb and whatever means was used to get it in place were completely vaporized, along with security cameras close enough to have any useful information. No one claims credit for the act. And while we suspect the usual suspects, we have no proof.


What do you think is the appropriate way for the United States respond to this act of terrorism?


(I request that we please keep the discussion limited to the areas of what is appropriate from the perspectives of morality and what might be done as a practical matter, and specfically that we stay away from "the low road" of getting into racial insults. Thanks.)

 

[fjolnirsson]

Hmm. I'll have to think on what's appropriate.
In the meantime, here's what I think would happen:
(Tinfoil hat)
Martial law will be declared, and most of the army recalled to US for door to door searches in an attempt to locate alleged terrorists whose names have been "leaked" by "involved" parties.
This will allow "discovery" of "militia" members with "weapons caches".
Guns will be declared illegal for "our protection", and dissenting subjects will be shot. John Kerry/George Bush will reign as King of the U.S. until his death, but will never be more than a figurehead.
Brave patriots will attempt bloody revolution, but it is too little, too late, and America is a tale of the past. (Except for Montana/Colorado/Texas, where pockets of resistance will remain.

(tinfoil hat off)

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

(edited to add):
I will reply more seriously, but I simply couldn't resist. I plead inebriation due to Shiner Bock.
I will respond more seriously after some thought.

 

[HBK]

I thought that when those skinnies dragged our dead soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu we should have removed our troops, then turned that city into one big piece of glass, killling everyone in it. As far as innocent or guilty, let God sort them out. If we had, then maybe we wouldn't be having this trouble now. If what you suggest should take place, I can only hope it will happen in Berkely. Our response should be to nuke something. Maybe Syria or Iran would be a good place to start, then maybe North Korea.

 

[Jim March]

It will be traced.

The specific isotopes are identifiable to the breeder reactor batch. We WILL identify them. If somebody like North Korea or Iran won't give us enough access to rule them out as a source, they'll VERY rapidly regret it.

We will basically go royally wiggy. They think we're tough overbearing SOBs as it is. Oh MAN, they ain't seen anything.

 

[fjolnirsson]

If what you suggest should take place, I can only hope it will happen in Berkely.

Man, I couldn't agree more. That place is a pit! I hope they wait until I move out of state, though. I'm only about 30 minutes out by freeway.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Have you ever sat in the Berkeley Hills and looked out over the Bay? It's God's country, I tell ya. That's why everyone in the world, it seems, wants to live there.

And why I can't afford to live there.

As to the question at hand, considering that Bush and company were planning the invasion of Iraq before 9/11, I'm sure some "evidence" would be found to pin this one on the target du jour.

 

[Drjones]

I'm going to get flamed by the communist trolls we have been invaded with, but I don't care.

If that were to happen, most of the country would (rightfully so) be demanding blood, and lots of it.

Or rather, glass.

Find exactly who did it and kill them all. Kill their families and their families' families.

People will say "but we'll only make more enemies if we kill lots of people."

Not if we don't leave anyone alive to hate us.

This is NOT a war that is going to be won by understanding, compassion, surgical strikes, and other conventional methods.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I predit newspaper ads will be taken out condemning the loss of innocent lives and asking the culprits for a Wash DC encore while Congress is in session.

 

[M1911Owner]

OK, I wanted to get more into the morality of what's an appropriate response, but I see that I set it up so that we get stuck on the first part of the question, how to determine who is responsible.

To get past the "who done it" part to the more interesting parts, let's change the scenario a bit: Assume that we have 90% accurate evidence that it was perpetrated by UBL & Co.

How do we respond in a way that is both effective and also reasonable from a moral prespective?

 

[Night Guy]

Would this by chance include the destruction of the major US news outlets?

That would put an immediate bias against the offending party, since even the trolls at your favorite three-letter station would be calling for blood. Just imagine the spin they could create.

 

[4v50 Gary]

You don't need a nuclear device to shut down Manhattan. A dirty bomb would do the same and that's what Der Fuhrer wanted to do to us back in WW II. Thankfully we cleaned & our allies cleaned their clock and shortened their 1,000 year old Reich.

 

[Wildalaska]

Speaking as one of the "communist trolls" (a politically inane epithet to amnyone who knows about communism) who have invaded here, I think that an off the wall response of "kill them all, let god sort them out" is childish.

First of all, the expolsion will be traced. Might not find the pers, but will find the suppliers....

Next we will engage in a measured response. Nuking savages back into the stone age (which is where they all ready are)..does nothing....

Destroying their governments...absolutely....that does more...and a hell of a lot cheaper....

Few F15s over Pyongang...bingo....tell the next leader...OK, disarm or you get taken out too...and so on....

WildfireintheholeAlaska

 

[Triad]

It will be traced.

The specific isotopes are identifiable to the breeder reactor batch. We WILL identify them. If somebody like North Korea or Iran won't give us enough access to rule them out as a source, they'll VERY rapidly regret it.

What will they do when it it is determined that the nuclear material was stolen from the Russians?

 

[inventory0297]

I would be in favor of measured tactical nuclear strikes directed at the supplier (which would be absolutely known very quickly) of the fissile material, the perpetrators, the bombmaking facility et cetera. We could/should leave the strategic multi-megaton weapons in the shed and make use of a few of the more accurate MIRVS which would have gone towards USSR silos. Boomer strikes maybe as well.

IF THE MATERIEL CAME FROM RUSSIA: This is worst case IMO, we would have to confiscate and account for all fissile material in the former CCCP ourselves and take responsibility for its storage, absolutely nothing could be worse than Russian plutonium exploding in America. A strike against them is obviously out, but they would cooperate by reason of not wanting an escalation and justifiable fear of a mistake. Voyska PVO would go apeshi* (if they even still have that organization in their lean times.......)

Whatever the logistics I feel a nuclear response would be absolutely necessary for several reasons. 1.) To maintain the deterrent value of our nuclear arms. Any unwillingnness to deploy these weapons when attacked in such a way undermines the very notion that the terrorists cannot win. 2.) As a strong and concrete message to any other nations or rogue groups that the terrible consequences of any such action far outweighs any reward. It must be absolutely clear that there is NO dividend in such an attacks. 3.) Punitive value. It takes a large infrastructure to develop a fission or fusion device, the country of origin needs to take responsibility to police themselves or face consequences. Perdition to our enemies, let them be reduced to dust.

Very ugly solution admittedly, but the only viable option IMO.......

 

[M1911Owner]

OK, here's some more of the scenario: The bomb was a "backpack nuke" sold to OBL by a rogue colonel in the old Soviet Army. (For purposes of this hypothetical, this device has a shelf-life of decades, even though in real life it's said they become non-functional after a year or two without maintenance.) This colonel has since been killed in the goings in in Chechnya. There's nobody to attack on the supply side: The Soviet Union no longer exists, the colonel is gone, Russia isn't really guilty of anything, and in any case it's not feasible to attack Russia. (Edited to add this note: I wrote this while inventory0297 was making his post, above, so this is not intended to be a comment on his post.)

As far as holding responsible "those countries who harbor terrorists" goes, we currently are occupying Afghanistan, Pakistan is cooperating with us in routing out the terrorists, and we are occupying Iraq. That doesn't leave any obvious sovereign entities to hold responsible. Perhaps Saudi Arabia--OBL comes from there, as did most of the 9/11 staff, a lot of the money funding terrorism is said to come from there. There's no direct connection to Iran, Syria, or North Korea.

So what do we do? Nuke Mecca because of the Saudi influence and because "it's a Muslim problem?" Flatten the mountains on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, where OBL is said to be hiding out? Nuke Pyongyang because they're next on our list? Look for OBL and Al Qaida even harder? Flatten the whole Middle East just to get rid of the problem? Pick some city to make an example of, nuke it, and hope that the leaders of the Arab world will give up all the terrorists so that we don't go on to the next city on our list?

What do you do?

 

[JPM70535]

Our response will in large part depend on who is POTUS. GWB's response would be swift and sure, given that identification of those responsible would be almost a certainty. (Multi millions in rewards will loosen tongues)

If on the other hand, JFK should be POTUS, he and his clones would still be holding hearings into what action to take that would not involve the "Loss of innocent civilian lives" when the same gang of terrorists detonated a second device, hopefully in downtown DC.

I am in lockstep with DRJONES on this one, Kill em all, let Allah sort em out.

 

[Delmar]

I believe it a lot of it has to do with timing. Remember the next few days after September 11th? Seemed like every politician, regardless of political stripe was beating their chest about how patriotic they were and how they were going to make it possible for the military to go out and get the bad guys.

I see more disadvantages to a nuclear retaliation than benefits. The ground we drop it on is going to be uninhabitable for a long, long time. It really does no good in the end to kill people not involved in the terrorist act, and can be counter productive.

Nuc's are from an age where hitting the city in order to take out a few targets in it. We have the technology to be infinately more precise now. It would not bother me one little bit if we got rid of just about every nuc in the arsenal, and the ICBM's war heads replaced by conventional warheads if they can be made to be as accurate as some of the weapon systems we now have. There may be a scenario or two were a nuc is a more effective weapon-can't think of one right now, but I'll bet there is someone on the board who will give a good reason

Example: You have a unibomber of sorts operating in a major city who is blowing up a lot of people near and dear to your heart. Intel pinpoints the city he is operating in. Do you blow up the whole town to take out the one or the few or do you precisely target those involved and get rid of the vermin?

 

[Langenator]

One effect nobody here has mentioned...a nuke in Manhattan would remove a very large chunk of Hillary and Schumer's voter base.

While I don't want NY to get nuked, there would be that minor beneficial effect.

 

[TarpleyG]

Sounds like the sequel to the Clancy novel...forget the name. Made a movie of it with that Affleck guy...

GT

 

[Bruce H]

TarpleyG, the Clancy book was Sum of all Fears and much better than the movie. Jim Marchand Wild pretty much have this pegged. We will identify the producer. If it turns out to be former soviet, those people want to live also. There will be some questions asked that won't follow Miranda. What will really throw a flaw in the senario is the material be US. based. We don't have the greatest record of accountability. The possibilities are many but people are going to die. Jim has it right, the rest of the world hasn't seen us really united and pissed. The real question is does the populace have a long enough attention span to accomplish anything.

 

[ravinraven]

Hey, HBK!

You said, "I can only hope it will happen in Berkely."

Then you went on with how we'd retaliate. My question is if the item in the quote were true, why would you want to retaliate? Wouldn't boxes of candy and bunchs [I can't spell bouquets] of flowers be more appropriate?

jis wunnerin'

rr

 

[Waitone]

We will identify where and when the bad stuff was manufactured.

We will then consult the previously published target list to determine tasking. The American public will be in no mood for "precision strikes." Pressure to manufacture glass will be intense and long lasting.

The veneer of civility will be torn off the American moral code and the full horror of technological warfare will become apparent.

Islamofascist terrormongers will then learn a lesson. A nuclear detonation in Manhattan is an example of asymetric warfare. So is sending a hellfire missle through the blackboard of a medrasas. Asymetric warfare is bi-laterally symetrical.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Let me step into another pair of shoes. A pair I am uncomfortable with, but I have seen them worn before. An a little levity to this tough dilemma.

[Levity On]
Bush knew about it in advance. It was a scheme thought of by Cheney and executed by Haliburton. More specifically, certain sub-contractors for Haliburton. The goal was to continue the WOT and to ensure passage of the PA II and to pump up the defense budget. The 9/11 Commission will immediately convene and change their charter. A "new" RIchard Clarke will corroborate the story. The press will run with it.

Pres. sKerry and VP Hitlary will immediately order nuclear strikes on Crawford, Cheyenne and Haliburton in a measured response against evil.
[Levity Off]

In reality, we still have the nation-state issue. If AQ or some other group initiated the attack, it will be very difficult to nail down a "capital" to nuke. Nuking innocents is off the table. There would be a massive response.

 

[rick_reno]

Suppose a nuclear device is detonated in Manhatten

Given the ability to trace the isotopes and find the source - there is speculation that when Muammar Abu Minyar al-QADHAFI of Libya did his turn around it was because he has supplied terrorists with refined and raw material and he knows that when they touch it off the fingers would be pointing at him. Now he can hold his hands up high and proclaim to be one of the good guys.

 

[AJ Dual]

IIRC, didn't the Russian Mafia already sell OBL and the Taliban a fake nuclear warhead? It was some kind of relatively complicated looking non-nuclear missile or artillery shell, and had just enough radioactive waste in a fake core to trigger a geiger counter convincingly. I thought our guys had found it somewhere.

All the while the Taliban had been sitting atop enough highly radioactive Cobalt 60 in old Soviet medical radiation treatment machines to make an excellent dirty bomb, but some very heroic Afghani doctors hid them in the basment. While on an inspection tour looking for items of military or terroristic utility, the "highly educated" Taliban defense ministry members, who's "education" consisted of nothing but obsessively reading the Koran, walked right on by the "broken X-Ray machines".

The whole thing kind of reminds me of the Billy Crystal in Moscow stand-up routine, where he announced Pakistan had "the bomb".

"You! Over there, get the bomb!"

"OK! Where's the cart?"

"The goat is walking away with the cart!"

"Get the bomb and put it in the cart!"

"But the goat!..."

"No! Get the cart and the bomb!"