Suppose a nuclear device is detontated in Manhattan...
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longeyes
member
We'll find out that NYC never really existed and was just a projection of The Matrix. Everyone there is quite "safe," underground and happy as clams in their servitude.
El Rojo
Member
I guess I just have to accept that there are people out there who enjoy the idea of killing innocent people. "Kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out". That is fine and I accept that idea. I also don't blame the enemy for having that idea. "Kill them all and let Jesus sort 'em out." If it is ok for you to feel that way, it is ok for the enemy to fee that way. So when they nuke us, they were just following through with the ideas we are portraying here. That idea being "Forget innocents, all Americans are devils". Our response, "Forget innocents, all non-Americans are devils."
If it wasn't a nation state directly involved, there is no way we are going to nuke back. If it is a nation state directly involved, I doubt we will nuke population centers. Maybe concentrations of troops with small tactical weapons, but full on retaliation? That is from an era past. It really depends on who it is. Lybia? We are going to invade and get Kadafi. China? That would be a tough one. North Korea? Probably a little easier, but then we still have to worry about China. Some rogue terrorist? Not much we can do other than go after single targets.
If it wasn't a nation state directly involved, there is no way we are going to nuke back. If it is a nation state directly involved, I doubt we will nuke population centers. Maybe concentrations of troops with small tactical weapons, but full on retaliation? That is from an era past. It really depends on who it is. Lybia? We are going to invade and get Kadafi. China? That would be a tough one. North Korea? Probably a little easier, but then we still have to worry about China. Some rogue terrorist? Not much we can do other than go after single targets.
Man... If lower NYC went up because of a nuke, essentially ALL of the greater New York area is done. No one is gonna stay near that radioactivity and that's 20 million people all of a sudden without jobs looking for a new home and wanting to get out NOW, at whatever cost.
This ofcourse would affect the world'd economy seeing that more money is traded in NYSE than in all the other Stock Exchanges COMBINED. That's right kids: TEOTWAWKI. The US economy would go bye-bye. Think about how much wealth is represented in this city alone.
-Here's another screwy concept: where ever those winds were blowing the fallout would clear the land for miles around. These are some of the most populated and influential places in the country. There's a reason the terrorists went for the WTCs and our economy almost went under.
As for my country dwellling brethen, it would be only a matter of time before the ripples of this effect would sweep over you in mass chaos despite your best efforts and feelings towards your independence and us city-folk. Our country as we know it would be no more.
Now, what would it become, I don't know. I'm sure since 9/11 the gov. has thought up of at least some contingency plans. Go watch "The Day After" or "Threads" to get an idea about what would happen. Let's pray this never comes about. Peace.
-paco
This ofcourse would affect the world'd economy seeing that more money is traded in NYSE than in all the other Stock Exchanges COMBINED. That's right kids: TEOTWAWKI. The US economy would go bye-bye. Think about how much wealth is represented in this city alone.
-Here's another screwy concept: where ever those winds were blowing the fallout would clear the land for miles around. These are some of the most populated and influential places in the country. There's a reason the terrorists went for the WTCs and our economy almost went under.
As for my country dwellling brethen, it would be only a matter of time before the ripples of this effect would sweep over you in mass chaos despite your best efforts and feelings towards your independence and us city-folk. Our country as we know it would be no more.
Now, what would it become, I don't know. I'm sure since 9/11 the gov. has thought up of at least some contingency plans. Go watch "The Day After" or "Threads" to get an idea about what would happen. Let's pray this never comes about. Peace.
-paco
ravinraven
Member
With apologies ot ....Jacket
Pres. sKerry ...[Whoops. It's the 21st of Jan 2007 and he just died.] ... newly inaugurated president Hitlary will immediately order nuclear strikes on Crawford, Cheyenne and Haliburton in a measured response against evil.
[Levity Off]
rr
Pres. sKerry ...[Whoops. It's the 21st of Jan 2007 and he just died.] ... newly inaugurated president Hitlary will immediately order nuclear strikes on Crawford, Cheyenne and Haliburton in a measured response against evil.
[Levity Off]
rr
corncob
Member
No one has mentioned this yet, so I'll give it a shot:
Non-proliferation is a pipe-dream. Just like gun control. Free market says if someone wants a nuke bad enough (demand) someone will sell them one (supply).
Sure there are only so many breeders in the world, and all the international controls, IAEA and all that, but come on, we just found out that the North Koreans were developing weapons. Sooner or later, everyone's going to have the bomb, especially considering the rate at which the "third world" is advancing technologically. Every research university established in [wherever] puts that particular contry one step closer to producing one.
And that's OK. It better be, because there's not a thing we can do to stop it. I fully expect to see a nuclear incident occur in the continental US in my lifetime, but I'm not upset about it. No one in my family lives anywhere near a likely target, so we'll be alright. And like a few other folks said, it will alter the voting base in this country permanently, maybe even for the better. Who nows? At least something will happen to knock us out of this rut. Maybe the pollitical landscape will swing back around to an emphasis on personal freedom when everyone realizes that no government, no matter how powerful and benevolent, can keep you safe. I wouldn't bet on it, though. But even a big sudden push toward total government control of everything might have a silver lining. Maybe people in this country would wake up, and take control of thier government back.
Back on topic: How the American mob expects the government to deal with a nuclear attack would depend on timing more than anything, I think. "Can we prove who it was?" being the number one question. If we could, whether or not the government let that bit of info get out or not would say a lot about what kind of public reaction the government wanted. Maybe that's being paranoid, but it's not like any of us could verify the story the media fed us.
Non-proliferation is a pipe-dream. Just like gun control. Free market says if someone wants a nuke bad enough (demand) someone will sell them one (supply).
Sure there are only so many breeders in the world, and all the international controls, IAEA and all that, but come on, we just found out that the North Koreans were developing weapons. Sooner or later, everyone's going to have the bomb, especially considering the rate at which the "third world" is advancing technologically. Every research university established in [wherever] puts that particular contry one step closer to producing one.
And that's OK. It better be, because there's not a thing we can do to stop it. I fully expect to see a nuclear incident occur in the continental US in my lifetime, but I'm not upset about it. No one in my family lives anywhere near a likely target, so we'll be alright. And like a few other folks said, it will alter the voting base in this country permanently, maybe even for the better. Who nows? At least something will happen to knock us out of this rut. Maybe the pollitical landscape will swing back around to an emphasis on personal freedom when everyone realizes that no government, no matter how powerful and benevolent, can keep you safe. I wouldn't bet on it, though. But even a big sudden push toward total government control of everything might have a silver lining. Maybe people in this country would wake up, and take control of thier government back.
Back on topic: How the American mob expects the government to deal with a nuclear attack would depend on timing more than anything, I think. "Can we prove who it was?" being the number one question. If we could, whether or not the government let that bit of info get out or not would say a lot about what kind of public reaction the government wanted. Maybe that's being paranoid, but it's not like any of us could verify the story the media fed us.
I wonder.........
If the NYSE records were intact, and could be accessed electronically, (or if they are maintained redundantly at a remote location ) trading could continue at another location. The greater NYC area could be cordoned off while the rest of the world went on its merry way.
If the NYSE records were intact, and could be accessed electronically, (or if they are maintained redundantly at a remote location ) trading could continue at another location. The greater NYC area could be cordoned off while the rest of the world went on its merry way.
longeyes
member
the President had a message from God
The way things seem to be going, judging from some recent trials, I think the way it would go is that the U.S. would nuke some major Moslem targets, then claim "temporary insanity," culturally-speaking, of course. That should satisfy the blackrobes in Brussels, The Hague, and the surviving leftists in the U.S.
El Rojo, your definition of "innocents" sounds very much like modern America's concept of "victims."
The way things seem to be going, judging from some recent trials, I think the way it would go is that the U.S. would nuke some major Moslem targets, then claim "temporary insanity," culturally-speaking, of course. That should satisfy the blackrobes in Brussels, The Hague, and the surviving leftists in the U.S.
El Rojo, your definition of "innocents" sounds very much like modern America's concept of "victims."
PATH
Member
The beginning of the end. It would lead eventually to WW III and that would be all she wrote in my estimation!
RileyMC,
Try blocking 20,000,000 people from leaving. Manhattan island has 8 million alone. The NJ coast is only a hop, skip, and a jump away and THEY would clear out. Nope, a blockade would not work seeing that the people, and rightly so, would believe staying on the island and surrounding areas would be a death sentence. Watcha gonna do? Ask the soldiers and national guards men, many of whom live in the city or have families here, to open fire on the fleeing citizens? Good luck!
All I can say living here is that we comported ourselves excellently during 9/11, but a nuke is a different thing altogether. I'm sure the other shoe will drop...
-Corncob: I agree with your theory about other fellas getting the bomb. It's a matter of when, not if, or worse yet, they have it already and it's gonna be a matter of where.
Oh BTW, you and your family won't be 'alright' where ever you are in the world if this happens. I think it's highly naive of you to think that a few million Americans can die and over 20 million more would go jobless and homeless and think that wouldn't directly effect you in a very negative way. And, no offense, or even a flame war, but let's try to be alittle more sensitive before speculating that the death of my home and several million people might pan out to be a good thing for your political view and lifestyle.
-paco
Try blocking 20,000,000 people from leaving. Manhattan island has 8 million alone. The NJ coast is only a hop, skip, and a jump away and THEY would clear out. Nope, a blockade would not work seeing that the people, and rightly so, would believe staying on the island and surrounding areas would be a death sentence. Watcha gonna do? Ask the soldiers and national guards men, many of whom live in the city or have families here, to open fire on the fleeing citizens? Good luck!
All I can say living here is that we comported ourselves excellently during 9/11, but a nuke is a different thing altogether. I'm sure the other shoe will drop...
-Corncob: I agree with your theory about other fellas getting the bomb. It's a matter of when, not if, or worse yet, they have it already and it's gonna be a matter of where.
Oh BTW, you and your family won't be 'alright' where ever you are in the world if this happens. I think it's highly naive of you to think that a few million Americans can die and over 20 million more would go jobless and homeless and think that wouldn't directly effect you in a very negative way. And, no offense, or even a flame war, but let's try to be alittle more sensitive before speculating that the death of my home and several million people might pan out to be a good thing for your political view and lifestyle.
-paco
Fudgie Ghost
Member
As someone who works in Manhattan, I have also given this sceanario some thought:
First: I hope I'm not in the city that day!
Then: Paco, I share your view. A LARGE chunk of the US economy would come to a COMPLETE HALT at the time of that detonation. All you people out in other parts of the country (who never tire of putting NYC down---hey there are some good people here; RKBA and all that!) WOULD be affected--big time.
Banking, telecommunications and many other crucial companies are headquartered here. Besides the immedieate catastrophic results MANY, MANY people who live in the surrounding suburbs would a) be out of work immedieately and for an unpredictable amount of time, and b)many of these people would then say "Screw this---I'm taking my family out of here" and seek to move to out of the way places, thinking, "I'll figure out what I'm going to do for a living when I get there" Sort of a controlled panic reaction. This would add to the "crashed" nature of the surrounding area (economically speaking)
Many people who live around here have all their bankable income tied up in their homes---home prices in Westchester, Nassau counties and suburban NJ are ridiculous. If this sceanario happened, those values would become practially NOTHING. Those who had cash, could move, but many around here live way above their means, and without two good incomes, and being able to cash their house in. . . they're toast.
Manhattan would literally become a ghost town, blast area would be sealed off and the rest of Manhattan patrolled 24/7 by Army/NG units.
I would think this sceanario would sent the US economy into a full depression, which would make the 30's seem like a picnic.
These terrorists are not stupid. The very thing that makes the US strong--a richly technological driven economy is also extremely vulnerable. Anything that is complicated can be easily screwed up. These terrorists realize this and are gunning for our underbelly. They can't defeat us militarily, nor change our politics (in a major way--like our support of Israel) but if the ship of the US economy is driven on to the rocks, how can the US fight effectively around the world? I believe this is their goal.
First: I hope I'm not in the city that day!
Then: Paco, I share your view. A LARGE chunk of the US economy would come to a COMPLETE HALT at the time of that detonation. All you people out in other parts of the country (who never tire of putting NYC down---hey there are some good people here; RKBA and all that!) WOULD be affected--big time.
Banking, telecommunications and many other crucial companies are headquartered here. Besides the immedieate catastrophic results MANY, MANY people who live in the surrounding suburbs would a) be out of work immedieately and for an unpredictable amount of time, and b)many of these people would then say "Screw this---I'm taking my family out of here" and seek to move to out of the way places, thinking, "I'll figure out what I'm going to do for a living when I get there" Sort of a controlled panic reaction. This would add to the "crashed" nature of the surrounding area (economically speaking)
Many people who live around here have all their bankable income tied up in their homes---home prices in Westchester, Nassau counties and suburban NJ are ridiculous. If this sceanario happened, those values would become practially NOTHING. Those who had cash, could move, but many around here live way above their means, and without two good incomes, and being able to cash their house in. . . they're toast.
Manhattan would literally become a ghost town, blast area would be sealed off and the rest of Manhattan patrolled 24/7 by Army/NG units.
I would think this sceanario would sent the US economy into a full depression, which would make the 30's seem like a picnic.
These terrorists are not stupid. The very thing that makes the US strong--a richly technological driven economy is also extremely vulnerable. Anything that is complicated can be easily screwed up. These terrorists realize this and are gunning for our underbelly. They can't defeat us militarily, nor change our politics (in a major way--like our support of Israel) but if the ship of the US economy is driven on to the rocks, how can the US fight effectively around the world? I believe this is their goal.
longeyes
member
Fudgie,
But if what you say is true--and I don't dispute it--and if this also looks inevitable, uh, then what?
But if what you say is true--and I don't dispute it--and if this also looks inevitable, uh, then what?
M1911Owner
Member
OK, let's not get too far into the TEOTWAWKI drift. The hypothetical is only 5 kilotons. That's enough to make a hole in the ground a block or two in diameter, and knock down buildings for half a mile or a mile around it. Which in Manhattan is a lot of damage and deaths to be sure. But it's a long, long way from rendering uninhabitable the greater New York metropolitan area. It's maybe a 30-100X bigger problem than 9/11/2001. Really big, but not TEOTWAWKI.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
It is my understanding that many businesses that were in the towers and neighboring buildings have already moved operations out of the city. It would be prudent for all involved if the various entities were dispersed. I do not know how this could be done, but somebody must be thinking about this.
Hey Longeyes,
Not that the question was directed at me but...
-I'd say corncob has a point: there would be a new government system.
-Either the states' governing systems would become the highest law of the land- or
-city states would form... or
-the federal gov. would declare and enforce an iron-fisted martial law state, or
-the feds would attempt to regain or order, but fail and...
-paco
p.s. maybe a little of all of these, but the first few years would be the definition of hell.
Not that the question was directed at me but...
-I'd say corncob has a point: there would be a new government system.
-Either the states' governing systems would become the highest law of the land- or
-city states would form... or
-the federal gov. would declare and enforce an iron-fisted martial law state, or
-the feds would attempt to regain or order, but fail and...
-paco
p.s. maybe a little of all of these, but the first few years would be the definition of hell.
Fudgie Ghost
Member
Longeyes: My answer to you is what I say whenever trouble seems on the horizon: BUY MORE AMMO!
Seriously: I take prudent precautions, but to some degree, I believe you cannot outrun Fate. If my time is up, it's up---no one lives forever. Please don't flame me on this--personal belief I'm not willing to discuss on this forum.
I was in the city on 9/11, and seriously considered swimming across the Harlem river (city was locked down---I couldn't get home!) at a point where it's only about 100 yards across. I would have walked home from there if I had to (total hike= about 25 miles).
I have some friends who, like many here, have contemplated some kind of "doomsday' sceanario in this area for some time. Good friends are probably one of the best "weapons" in this case. I have several.
Seriously: I take prudent precautions, but to some degree, I believe you cannot outrun Fate. If my time is up, it's up---no one lives forever. Please don't flame me on this--personal belief I'm not willing to discuss on this forum.
I was in the city on 9/11, and seriously considered swimming across the Harlem river (city was locked down---I couldn't get home!) at a point where it's only about 100 yards across. I would have walked home from there if I had to (total hike= about 25 miles).
I have some friends who, like many here, have contemplated some kind of "doomsday' sceanario in this area for some time. Good friends are probably one of the best "weapons" in this case. I have several.
M1911owner,
I hear you, but you didn't see the MASS exodus, as people walked, drove, biked (albeit calmly) over the bridges to get out. Fear would do most of the herding anyway. Besides, we're a bit untrusting of the gov. since they said that the smoke and fumes aren't very harmful, and now finding that those fumes are VERY harmful. The WTC workers are dropping like flies from pulmonary problems that seemily are only gonna get worse. Not many deaths yet, but cancer takes time. See the WTC still had asbestos in them...and that was just some building burning. Now imagine, what with all the movies and fear people been fed about WMDs, well, you get the point... "Ahhh, run away, run away" But this time it isn't a joke.
-paco
I hear you, but you didn't see the MASS exodus, as people walked, drove, biked (albeit calmly) over the bridges to get out. Fear would do most of the herding anyway. Besides, we're a bit untrusting of the gov. since they said that the smoke and fumes aren't very harmful, and now finding that those fumes are VERY harmful. The WTC workers are dropping like flies from pulmonary problems that seemily are only gonna get worse. Not many deaths yet, but cancer takes time. See the WTC still had asbestos in them...and that was just some building burning. Now imagine, what with all the movies and fear people been fed about WMDs, well, you get the point... "Ahhh, run away, run away" But this time it isn't a joke.
-paco
longeyes
member
Forget the hypothetical, what's the realistic yield on backpack and suitcase bombs? Anyone? What if it's 20 kilotons? Or 50?
Distributing our economy, the way we distribute our processing, would be a wise transition in this time. But that only works, somewhat, for localized catastrophes. It won't work for bioterror weapons, and they too are coming.
No, the answer lies elsewhere, and hence my question, what now? I wasn't talking about our changing our form of government After the Blast I was talking about how a civilized world gets its mind, strategically and tactically, around the magnitude of the threats we are facing.
Here's a thought I'd like to hear feedback on:
When we arrive at the point where one man, with a suitcase nuke, can erase decades or centuries of the efforts of millions, kill not only human beings but a culture itself, have we not passed beyond the Age of the Individual to some other darker place? And what do we do with this reality?
Distributing our economy, the way we distribute our processing, would be a wise transition in this time. But that only works, somewhat, for localized catastrophes. It won't work for bioterror weapons, and they too are coming.
No, the answer lies elsewhere, and hence my question, what now? I wasn't talking about our changing our form of government After the Blast I was talking about how a civilized world gets its mind, strategically and tactically, around the magnitude of the threats we are facing.
Here's a thought I'd like to hear feedback on:
When we arrive at the point where one man, with a suitcase nuke, can erase decades or centuries of the efforts of millions, kill not only human beings but a culture itself, have we not passed beyond the Age of the Individual to some other darker place? And what do we do with this reality?
Loss of life and property aside for a moment. What real damage would such an attack do, I guess STRATEGICALLY is the word? If there are backup/alternate plans for banking records, stock market activity, etc. anything that would affect life OUTSIDE of NYC.
It might even be a good idea for .gov to immediately announce that the U.S. will NOT go nuclear, but rather focus on a 'return to normalcy' while it seeks to 'bring those responsible to justice'
Seems like a more prudent path, after all, the damage has already been done............
It might even be a good idea for .gov to immediately announce that the U.S. will NOT go nuclear, but rather focus on a 'return to normalcy' while it seeks to 'bring those responsible to justice'
Seems like a more prudent path, after all, the damage has already been done............
M1911Owner
Member
Longeyes, a quick Google search says they're even smaller than I was positing: about one kiloton. Equal to 2,000,000 pounds of TNT. Or about 30 B-52's of conventional ordnance, all blown up in one place.
longeyes
member
M1911 Owner,
Well, that's a relief. I thought we were in real trouble there for a minute.
Well, that's a relief. I thought we were in real trouble there for a minute.
We have used small nukes before on Japan. They would call those tactical nukes now. Do these morons really think we wouldn't do it again? If Manhatten got nuked that would be a catostrpohic tragedy and our cilvilization would be severely disrupted for years. However, if we traced the action to someone, and I'm sure we would, they would cease to exist. Maybe that's OK in the nut ball fringe where you get 72 virgins, I don't know.
One thing I have learned is that you don't mess with America too much or you will pay with all you have. That's only fair because as an American I would too.
One thing I have learned is that you don't mess with America too much or you will pay with all you have. That's only fair because as an American I would too.
M1911Owner
Member
Paco,
I'm seeing that from the responses on this thread. I had no clue at all the this discussion would go in a TEOTWAWKI direction.
I guess the media hype over the years has been to so demonize nuclear weapons that most people's gut reaction is that use of a nuclear device is the end of the world. For example, remember the movie Independence Day, the Fourth of July. The aliens had totally destroyed Washington DC, Los Angles any many other large cities around the world. We had discovered through experience that our conventional weapons had absolutely no effect on their shields. Then some military official suggests that perhaps they should use a nuke against them. The reaction by the other military officials there was that they were aghast that he would suggest something so awful. Hey, come on! They've just destroyed many major cities, you haven't been able to touch them, of course you use nukes. But, to the screenwriter, and to many others in our society, nuclear weapons have passed from the realm of the real and into the realm of the mythical.
So, yah, I can see that there would be a mass exodus, whether is was warranted or not.
On the other hand, I suspect that most of Manhattan left on 9/11, so the exodus in this situation probably wouldn't be a whole lot worse.
(Edit to add: I've never lived in an area anywhere near as dense as Manhattan, so I can't really get a feeling for the effect something like this would have on the people there, and on whether it could continue to be a viable place to be.)
I'm seeing that from the responses on this thread. I had no clue at all the this discussion would go in a TEOTWAWKI direction.
I guess the media hype over the years has been to so demonize nuclear weapons that most people's gut reaction is that use of a nuclear device is the end of the world. For example, remember the movie Independence Day, the Fourth of July. The aliens had totally destroyed Washington DC, Los Angles any many other large cities around the world. We had discovered through experience that our conventional weapons had absolutely no effect on their shields. Then some military official suggests that perhaps they should use a nuke against them. The reaction by the other military officials there was that they were aghast that he would suggest something so awful. Hey, come on! They've just destroyed many major cities, you haven't been able to touch them, of course you use nukes. But, to the screenwriter, and to many others in our society, nuclear weapons have passed from the realm of the real and into the realm of the mythical.
So, yah, I can see that there would be a mass exodus, whether is was warranted or not.
On the other hand, I suspect that most of Manhattan left on 9/11, so the exodus in this situation probably wouldn't be a whole lot worse.
(Edit to add: I've never lived in an area anywhere near as dense as Manhattan, so I can't really get a feeling for the effect something like this would have on the people there, and on whether it could continue to be a viable place to be.)
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