tactical clearing in the country

[Mountainman38]

I don't want to re-post your entire previous post to this one, but I will say that you had some good points to make, and I agree that there is need to go slowly, and try to identify a threat. I do this, but as I said, there are frequently times when I want to check out my yard and house, so I'll keep working on the observation skills and try to determine the threat before I get in a compromised position. This applies to wild animals as well as humans, too: I hike/bike in the woods a lot, and while I could probably defend myself if I got jumped by a hungry cougar, I'd much rather see it coming and repel an attack before it got it's claws on me. This means your head should be on a swivel (especially when I have my young children with me, which are particularly attractive to mountain lions from what I hear), and I'm looking at all the places a predator could appear from. This is not a guarantee that I'll see an attacker first, but it helps the odds.

Same thing with my house, or car when I'm driving. Paying attention to warning signs helps be prepared to take the right steps to deal with trouble.

Now, if reference to my comment about the open garage door:

A note about this: If this is possible for you, do a little upgrading to your perimeter. At the VERY least, make your home-entry door from the garage at least as secure as your front door. And close off any attic access ways. That way, if you are so absent-minded as to leave your garage door open in the future, a thief or invader won't have immediate clear run of the house. Then, when you pull up to that open garage door your lights will show you the interior of the garage. If you don't see anyone in there, and the inner door is not open, you can be reasonably assured that you've not been invaded.

I guess leaving the door open is what you'd call a senior moment. There is a locking door from the garage into the house, and when I'm home I make sure that door stays locked (as do all the perimeter doors). When we load up in the van in the garage and then leave, I don't lock the door behind me. I make sure the sliding door is closed (usually), and leave the door into the house unlocked. As I said, on the occasions when I've come home to see the sliding door open, I remember leaving it that way, but it still leaves an open route into the house. As far as locking the door into the house to secure the house goes, I should have closed the sliding door, but didn't.

Anyway, good info on the need to be aware. I have nothing like the level of training of most of those who have posted to this thread, so I don't claim to have superior tactical skills. I do know what has worked for me so far, and yeah -- maybe I've just been lucky. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

 

[Onward Allusion]

First, like almost everyone had said - REALLY not a good idea to go out to investigate. However, sometimes you have to...

Use TWO lights. One in your hand (minimum 300 lumens) and the other mounted on your gun. Scan with the one in your hand. Gun in a safe position. Use the light to distract or blind if necessary.

Mountainman38

I don't think this is necessarily a good idea.

Let me explain: My family and I live quite a ways out in the country too, so it can get pretty dark. One night my wife heard something bump against the house, and wanted me to check it out.

I went out with my Glock and flashlight, and checked all around the house. I was using the gun on top/flashlight underneath hold, until I walked past our downstairs windows. As I was lighting up the bushes next to the house, I looked up and through the window and saw my kids playing just beyond. I quickly moved my gun so it wasn't pointing at the house, as I kept looking (never found anything).

This was a good reminder that when you have a weapon mounted light, and you're checking around your house, at some point you're going to need to light up an area close to where people are -- and that means you're point your gun at them. Not a good idea.

 

[Onward Allusion]

One more thought

If I lived in a wooded area and HAD to investigate things that go bump in the night outside, I would seriously consider investing in an inexpensive (3K - 5K) thermal imaging unit. At the very least, a very high-end (LE type) game/rescue finder.

Again, the key words are "HAD to investigate..."

 

[Kleanbore]

This discussion has led me to think back upon my days in the country and on how things have changed since Eisenhower was President (that comment is to establish the era and is not a political statement). I spent the greater part of the summers of my childhood and early teens with relatives in the country--and I do mean in the country.

My mother's sister lived about twenty miles from the nearest real town (a small city); there were no neighbors within sight in very flat cotton country, and there was no telephone service.

My maternal grandfather also lived in the country, but they had a telephone.

My father's brother lived twenty miles from the nearest city, but there were little places with names, post offices, grocery store/gasoline station combinations, and so on a couple of miles down the road in each direction, and they had a telephone.

Each household had a single barrel break-open shotgun in a closet with a couple of shells and one handgun that was kept loaded. The doors were kept unlocked. There was no lock on the propane tank. If a cow got out, we went out to round it up and fix the gate or fence. At night we would take flashlights. No one worried about danger. I was more concerned about wasps than anything else.

The world has obviously changed, and not for the better, in many ways. As several people here and in other discussions have said, it is not prudent to go outside to confront or look for violent criminal actors, nor is it prudent to ignore the risk of their coming around. These days, all of the farms I drive by have huge lights that illuminate everything around the house and barn. That's a pretty strong indication that people and property are not as safe as they once were. Heck, these days, one cannot even see the stars at night due to the lights people need to keep on.

 

[mcdonl]

I would seriously consider investing in an inexpensive (3K - 5K) thermal imaging unit. At the very least, a very high-end (LE type) game/rescue finder.

Really? Man, I am an easy mark. I am not afraid of the dark, I just use a flashlight. I go outside in the dark and have a look if I hear something. I live in the country and I am used to the dark. A TIC? Really? Do they come with a 5.11 holster for it? Thats funny stuff.

To answer the OP? I look left, I look right... I yell shut up and go to sleep to the dog. If that is not enough, I go out and have a look.

Again, the key words are "HAD to investigate..."

I *LIKE* to investigate things in the night. Thats when all the cool animals are out and about. I also like to coyote hunt at night, because the dark is cool. I also go to the range at night... because sometimes you need to shoot in the dark. Investing 3-5K in a TIC is maybe just a little out there... find a local fire department, they would give you a plaque on the wall if you purchased one for them. Most don't have more than one.

Note: My dog sleeps in the house. He would get a K9 lawyer and sue me if I left him outside. The entitled little mutt.

 

[yeti]

I knew an old gentleman who came from Rhodesia, his philosophy was that it was basically better to find out in the morning that you could have gone out to safely investigate the 'bumps in the night', than it was to go out and investigate only to realize you should have waited until morning & have made the last big mistake of your life.

It sure seemed to work for him, but even here his house was built like a fortress and the grounds were lit up like times square.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, and yeti, I bet you didn't go visiting after nine, read some on the history of South africa (place not country)

You keep you home dark, the perimeter lighted, and fight from inside. NVGs are much cheaper, but IR's (thermals) are getting better and less expensive.

 

[joe_security]

It seems to me that a house with a second story that has window views in all directions would be a huge advantage. Combine that with switchable or motion activated lights and cctv night vision cameras and you would have a scenario that would make most BGs extremely nervous. Sit back in safety and watch the coyotes play at night, taking action where appropriate. If it is a burglary/home invasion team or LEO chasing someone, you are safe and sound inside the house.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Training scenarios with weapon lights and no lights are all fine, but if it was a real situation and those were real BG's wanting to kill you, they would just toss a couple of Molotov cocktails and wait.

 

[Sam1911]

... but if it was a real situation and those were real BG's wanting to kill you, they would just toss a couple of Molotov cocktails and wait.

If murder and arson were their goals.

The absence of Molotov cocktails does not equal the absence of danger.

 

[Onward Allusion]

The absence of Molotov cocktails does not equal the absence of danger.

Absolutely. I was a little off topic but I was referring to the use of a weapon light to clear. If the BG really want to get you, they will. Real life is different than training. Training is bloodless. Real life isn't. Training has rules. In real life your opponent has no rules. So I would rather have all the tools at my disposal rather than being Rambo and investigate (if at all) bumps in the night armed only with a flashlight and a gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Onward Allusion: If the BG really want to get you, they will.

Well, yeah, if someone desperate wants retribution for some real or perceived wrongdoing on your part, that's a risk.

Not very likely, IMHO.

What's more likely is that a couple of bad apples have come around looking for anhydrous ammonia, propane, tools, or a pick-up truck; their only reason for harming you is to prevent their apprehension and/or to protect themselves.

When they see you coming with gun in hand, they see you as a serious threat to their freedom and safety, and if they are really in desperate need of the commodity after which they came, to their business success.

And, of course, they have the upper hand.

 

[mcdonl]

Onward Said:

So I would rather have all the tools at my disposal rather than being Rambo and investigate (if at all) bumps in the night armed only with a flashlight and a gun.

Onward, I just wanted to share my perspective and apologize. You clearly live in a much more hostile environment than I... Molotov cocktails are rarely tossed about in rural Maine.

TIC's are not a part of our lexicon when it comes to home defense. For the most part, bumps in the night outside of the home are great opportunities to see what wildlife are passing through, and to make sure that the raccoons, skunks and coyotes are not causing trouble with the trash or our pets.

Sure, there could be a burgler... there could even be a band of mercenaries ready to toss Molotov cocktails at me when I walk outside to get a look at what is causing the ruckus, but you know what... I will take my chances given where I live. I do not think that makes me Rambo, it just means I live my life without fear of the things that go bump in *MY* night... your night is obviously significantly different than mine.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Truth be known, I do not live Baghdad, but it may be harsher than where you are though. I have Section 8 apartments and gangs about 1 to 2 miles from me and unfortunately, the riffraff do drive through our development often. Numerous cars have been broken into through the years but fortunately outright burglaries are still not common. We did have a couple of home-invasions and shootings within a 5 mile radius of us, however. This past Halloween was a joke with "kids" in their late teens and probably a couple in their early 20's "trick-or-treating" - casing for potential victims would be more like it.

I've been in this development for 3 years and has seen the area steadily go downhill due to the economy. We have a half dozen houses in the development that are vacant due to the owners being foreclosed on and vacant houses are magnets for trouble. I didn't used to carry at home, but I do now. So, if I simply heard noises outside late at night, I probably wouldn't investigate. If my shed was on fire or something similar, then it would be different. I wished I'd lived where you are 'cause it does sound like a nice place with the wildlife and all.

mcdonl

Onward Said: Quote:
So I would rather have all the tools at my disposal rather than being Rambo and investigate (if at all) bumps in the night armed only with a flashlight and a gun.

Onward, I just wanted to share my perspective and apologize. You clearly live in a much more hostile environment than I... Molotov cocktails are rarely tossed about in rural Maine.

TIC's are not a part of our lexicon when it comes to home defense. For the most part, bumps in the night outside of the home are great opportunities to see what wildlife are passing through, and to make sure that the raccoons, skunks and coyotes are not causing trouble with the trash or our pets.

Sure, there could be a burgler... there could even be a band of mercenaries ready to toss Molotov cocktails at me when I walk outside to get a look at what is causing the ruckus, but you know what... I will take my chances given where I live. I do not think that makes me Rambo, it just means I live my life without fear of the things that go bump in *MY* night... your night is obviously significantly different than mine.

 

[gunnie]

seems to me mcdonl has hit on the crux of this disagreement. much like the red and blue zones on the election maps, it boils down to city VS country viewpoint. and as such, i'd be hard put to call one side right, and the other wrong, just differing environments and objectives.

in defense of the country perspectives:

most people can tell from their dog's barking whether it's a warning to another critter that territorial lines are close to or already crossed, or a genuine threat in the dogs mind. there should be little doubt where the threat is located, provided you have enough IQ to observe the animal(s). dog observation and antiquated PNV's will vastly reduce the interloper's odds of prevailing. most all who steal by burglary will not be prepared for that combination, they don't/haven't done the prior homework to even determine if your residence is cost effective as to the chances they will create/take in committing the act.

if your home and buildings contain valuable items that are readily turned over for a profit, the high tech, financially painful countermeasures listed above are surely worth consideration (with battery/generator back-up systems) ....let your bank account decide. even just insuring the valuables may be worth not needing to assume the risk of self policing beyond one's house.

out here in the boonies, LEO's are aware that THEY could be mistaken for the threat when prowling about on one's private land at night unannounced. as such, they will be be aware of the liability they assume in response to being "lit up" by the home owners weapon light, or they had better have a WELL insured PD. besides, if they feel a perp is in the immediate vicinity of the citizen's home, wouldn't warning the occupants of the home be a priority over catching the perp? they will arrive in cruisers, not over the fence into your yard from the stone throw distance next door house in a heated foot chase of a fleeing criminal. in the country scenario, your dog(s) will tell you before same even gets near your home.

it takes very little watching of the evening news to find cases of perps who kill, maim, rape, and/or torture as a sideshow to their main objective when committing even petty larceny. it isn't merely removal of potential future witnesses, it is a sick mind's idea of good times. we live in a morally bankrupt society..... i would be remiss to fail to note that the chance for having such an encounter is reduced for us in sticksville, USA., unless the perp(s) are in flight beforehand.

armed bands of mercs/paramilitary have to be after a distinct and somehow valuable objective to even bother with the home of an otherwise uninvolved citizen. if prepared, they WILL overcome what the mythical average citizen offers up as defensive measures before the long/short arm of the law intervenes, if somehow you manage to call same. they will likely have previously removed the ability to call 911 before you are aware of their presence, even if the much debated "dynamic entry" is required. likely the only warning you will get is a faint "pop" and the louder slamming shut of a subsonic round from fully/semi-auto action with a can on the bbl's end before/after the dog barks.

so i feel that offering that scenario, and the rambo mentality up as a thin, derogatory counterpoint is just that, thin at best.

the city perspective:

calling the police is always better statistically. even if you do prevail, shooting ANYONE in a suburban back yard will cause serious legal constipations, regardless of their reason for being there.*

gunnie

* in the wee AM hours here in very rural NETEX, same is not the case.

 

[mcdonl]

Onward, I know for a fact I would look at life a lot differently than I do now if I had your circumstances. Not that mine are any better, just different.

I would be far less "excited" to see what was bumping in the night if I had gang activity 1 to 2 miles away... probably 1-2 miles of easy traveling too.

Peace.

 

[Kleanbore]

I would be far less "excited" to see what was bumping in the night if I had gang activity 1 to 2 miles away... probably 1-2 miles of easy traveling too.

Or in meth county or near an Interstate known for drug trafficking or in an area beset by illegal immigration.

One or two miles? These guys do not go on foot. That's one minute or less on the highway.

Out in the country, each house represents a potential target for anyone up to no good. The lights serve as beacons, and the likely presence of cars or trucks or valuables or important raw materials there for the taking present a real attraction.

I believe that most risks, but not all, are posed by people looking for a place where no one is home. But even so, they might be surprised. What do they do then?

I might be excited to see a barred owl or a family of raccoons, or maybe a fox, but if there is any chance that a human intruder is out there, excitement does not describe my feelings.

...there should be little doubt where the threat is located, provided you have enough IQ to observe the animal(s). dog observation and antiquated PNV's will vastly reduce the interloper's odds of prevailing.

The dog may indeed give you an indication that someone is out behind the barn. However, if you go out to check, you may walk into the potential ambush of the other guy or guys. Heck, one of them may be serving as a lookout, waiting to bump you off, and don't think he won't have the equipment with which to do it. Poachers around here have all kinds of weaponry and even night vision equipment. Then what will your family do?

If you encounter meth people, people moving marijuana or other drugs, or felons running from the scene of a crime at night, having the dogs point won't help much. The perps are likely to be desperate and ruthless, and if you are hunting them, you are very vulnerable.

If you do so with a flashlight or a weapon light, you are a walking duck.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I'm just waiting for my boys to go off to college so that I can moved to a part of the country like yours!

mcdonl

Onward, I know for a fact I would look at life a lot differently than I do now if I had your circumstances. Not that mine are any better, just different.

I would be far less "excited" to see what was bumping in the night if I had gang activity 1 to 2 miles away... probably 1-2 miles of easy traveling too.

Peace.

 

[Readyrod]

When I lived on a farm you couldn't go anywhere at night without the dogs, both ours and the neighbors, raising a rucus. Thing is anything could set them off. If you think there is an intruder stay in the house and let the dogs corner him, it's their job. Call the cops if you think it's serious. It might just be a coyote or a deer tho.

 

[Jeff F]

I live rural, a little over an acre with a few out buildings. What I do is to let loose the land sharks to go check out the yard when something seem strange at night. If theres anybody in the yard they will find and detain them. I'll go out and check the yard with a light, cell phone and a side arm or shotgun but only with the dogs. Back when gas was really expensive the dogs caught a jacka$$ siphoning out of the pickup. When I got out there he was in the back of the truck crying like a baby and had pissed his pants. I called the sheriff went back in the house and got myself a cup of coffee then went out and sat on the porch and waited. It took the sheriff's deputy about 10 minutes to get here and I met met him at the gate. We talked for a few minutes while the dogs kept the gas thief company. The deputy was pretty amused when I called the dogs off and he took custody.

 

[Kleanbore]

The deputy was pretty amused when I called the dogs off and he took custody.

Good.

Members should be aware, however, that it doesn't end up that way in all jurisdictions. Depending upon the law and case law and upon the type of offense involved, one may or may not be permitted to detain someone.

There is also the little matter of civil liability. Should a person be injured while being restrained or detained, he or she has legal recourse and may sue for damages. The deputy is indemnified against such liability. The civilian is not.

That and the risk of being shot by a companion with a rifle would cause me to think long and hard before detaining anyone.

 

[Jeff F]

Kleanbore, that's good advice on the civil liability aspect. My homeowners insurance and the added riders should more then cover that not that I would like to ever find out though.
The beauty of this situation was that I never really detained this guy, even though I had the right to. The dogs pretty much had that handled. All I said to the guy was you picked the wrong place to steal gas, I'm calling the sheriff and if you try and run those dogs will chase you down.

 

[gunnie]

..."Then what will your family do?"...

assuming they get past the dog and itself... knowing shots were fired (at least 2), they (wife, son in 20's) will be in the safe room, armed better than i was with close range iron, S-12X10X000 buck, and 1911 both with weapon mount lights and hand held PNV monocular. the second dog also with them, waiting for ~eventual~ police arrival.

..."Poachers around here have all kinds of weaponry and even night vision equipment."...

if they are scamming deer at night, with night vision eqpt., why would they expect to do so better right up next to a house and buildings? here in very rural NETEX, i know the local PD (all two of them) doesn't even have the money for body armor, so i feel safe saying that weapon mounted PNVs are highly unlikely. if the very lost poachers, speed freaks, and weed mules come ready for business with same, my calling in the sorely underfunded police would only serve to add them to the body count.

..."If you encounter meth people, people moving marijuana or other drugs, or felons running from the scene of a crime at night, having the dogs point won't help much. The perps are likely to be desperate and ruthless, and if you are hunting them, you are very vulnerable."

can't disagree with that, but what are the chances that any of the above will have PNV weapon sights with more range capabilities that a 308 FAL, and no cartel affiliations? if they are family members of the "bogota bunch", the chances of them showing up at night, at a non-dealer residence, without overwhelming personnel numbers seems slight. the outdoor dog will hear them out further than a raccoon gets the bark, about 100 yds. i check where the dog is barking out the windows before going out anyway, if there are even two bodies out there, i'll take my chances inside the house, thanks.

those who have dogs and live in the boonies can usually tell the difference between a territorial warning bark to other critters, and the genuine threat bark. armadillos, raccoons, deer and skunks all get the warning bark, wild boar, coyotes and slow moving cars up on the road get a real deal bark. after IDing a piggy that came calling a month or so back, i let the second dog out with his brother. they are both 100 lb+ and hunt as a team. with them keeping the pig entertained by harassing it just beyond its strike range, it was no problem to sneak undetected to about 50yds and cap it.

if one stays out in the sticks on a good sized chunk of land, it would be a poor choice to not get good dogs. in way of explanation, consider that racoons only have one defense, stealth. yet they rarely get within 100 yds undetected. pigs aren't really greatly handicapped at night, because their day time vision is lousy to begin with. their hearing and sense of smell is very good, though. with both dogs keeping him very busy, i was easily able to get about 50 yds away. the piggy had no clue as to my presence untill i hit the safety lever, where upon he looked directly at me. too late to save his bacon, though.

if you live out in the sticks and have expensive, portable, and easily sold "as-is" items, the big dollar security systems are well worth considering, with battery/generator back up systems. but for what a power backed-up thermal video surveillance system would cost installed, why not just insure the items? no need to risk your assets at night. i go out because the piggies could pin up the dog. coyotes can take young/small livestock. unlikely but possible. i go out because given enough time, the perp(s) could easily find the means to put heavy equipment in motion, even through the house. light the hoses to an oxy-acetylene torch rig. blow up outdoor propane tanks. or just plain old set fire to the house. it doesn't take much force feeding of the evening news to find cases of perps who kill, maim, rape and/or torture their victims as a side show to the intended crime. we live in a morally bankrupt society.

texas allows enormous leeway in defending your castle/life. check your own local laws if you decide to go out and investigate. YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY. in some places, shooting a perp out of your house regardless of why they were there is begging to get sued out of it, and arrested.

a posting a while back mentioned how one would be rolling the dice "lighting up" a LEO at night. dunno what the protocol may be in all areas, but here in rural TX, the PD knows THEY could be taking chances arriving unannounced after dark at a home out in the boonies. their response if same takes place had better be something wiser than firing at the home owner, cause the local PD doesn't have a great deal of money for lloyds of london insurance, either. besides, i'd think if one of our police arrived on a credible threat of a fleeing perp, THEY would be making sure the household was forewarned and safe before continuing the chase. they'd also likely be asking for back up, if they know you.

..."If you do so with a flashlight or a weapon light, you are a walking duck. "...

different mission parameters, my weapon lights are for ID-ing the target i just lined up to shoot. hence, POINTED THE LOADED WEAPON at them. different wordings abound, but the basic wording of all training i have come into contact with....

safety rule #1- do not point the weapon at ANYTHING you aren't ready/willing to shoot.

lasers are equally likely to give up your position at night. on a foggy night a good bright weapon light (streamlight, surefire, etc) will reflect right back at you, causing you poor vision for some minutes after the fact, be advised.

NO tactics, training, SOP's or plans will cover all of the endless possibilities that arise when TSHTF comes calling....i am NOT promoting the idea that my situation matches your's, or that my play book will work for you. however, no stats dictate that only one course of action is viable. but they WILL tell you what course of action has the best overall odds of allowing one to survive. if so many who have studied the house entry scenario say that it translates into a ten to one numerical superiority for the well prepared home owner to prevail...

IF FEEL SAFE ASSUMING SAME TO BE FACTUAL. CONSIDER YOUR OWN ENVIRONMENT, LAWS, GEAR AND PLAN OF ACTION AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT!

i haven't been able to locate the force multiplier ratio stats for a home a owner with two large, savvy dogs on their known turf and a large caliber/capacity semi-auto weapon that was also designed specificly for warfare, and has a decent PNV mounted on it ~VS~ a criminal interloper in unknown nocturnal terrain with the (?) usual weapons they will carry along.

i DO doubt same would favor the perp....

gunnie

 

[mcdonl]

What the heck is a PNV?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Personal Night Vision

most like someones brain fart from army nomenclature AN/PVS