williamthedog
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- Joined
- Sep 28, 2006
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- 97
10-fp .308
mueller eraticator
this will do it.
Target Rifle
- Thread starter Mr. D
- Start date
- Status
10-fp .308
mueller eraticator
this will do it.
JimmerJammerMrK
Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 131
I think .223 is plenty for the OP, no need for .308.
Sitting Duck
Member
What will your friends be shooting?
Also, someone (Rangeruck?) mentioned used. I wouldn't limit myself to a new purchase. There are many excellent pre-owned rifles at very good price points. I bought my '77 Rem 22-250 off of an auction site for $341 dollars. Beautiful rifle and very accurate to boot.
I did recommend a .204 because the ballistics look better than the 22-250. On paper anyways and ammunition should be less expensive.
Whatever you choose, get a heavy barrel. Fluted maybe. These puppies heat up on the range rather quickly.
Good luck!
Also, someone (Rangeruck?) mentioned used. I wouldn't limit myself to a new purchase. There are many excellent pre-owned rifles at very good price points. I bought my '77 Rem 22-250 off of an auction site for $341 dollars. Beautiful rifle and very accurate to boot.
I did recommend a .204 because the ballistics look better than the 22-250. On paper anyways and ammunition should be less expensive.
Whatever you choose, get a heavy barrel. Fluted maybe. These puppies heat up on the range rather quickly.
Good luck!
bogie
Member
Any of these fancy tactical looking things had a master gunsmith have a go at them? The rifle I referenced up above - the gunsmith was Miles Hollister...
Guys, there's "gun magazine" accuracy, where they go on about shooting a "minute of angle" group, and there's -real- accuracy, where people get very upset if a rifle won't group under a half MOA...
Guys, there's "gun magazine" accuracy, where they go on about shooting a "minute of angle" group, and there's -real- accuracy, where people get very upset if a rifle won't group under a half MOA...
skinewmexico
Member
Nope, they make a factory 1-7, in the Model 12 Low Profile, or Model 12 LRPV. Savage listens to shooters..........
williamthedog
Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2006
- Messages
- 97
Any of these fancy tactical looking things had a master gunsmith have a go at them? The rifle I referenced up above - the gunsmith was Miles Hollister...
Guys, there's "gun magazine" accuracy, where they go on about shooting a "minute of angle" group, and there's -real- accuracy, where people get very upset if a rifle won't group under a half MOA...
UNQUOTE
nope mine didnt need it.
i DO get under 1/2 MOA
Guys, there's "gun magazine" accuracy, where they go on about shooting a "minute of angle" group, and there's -real- accuracy, where people get very upset if a rifle won't group under a half MOA...
UNQUOTE
nope mine didnt need it.
i DO get under 1/2 MOA
cpttango30
Member
Doc2005 said:
Sorry I have to call BS on that little statement.
That is world record accuracy that comes with a $3000 + price tag.
atlanticfire
Member
+1 on the savage 12 .223
bogie
Member
I'll call BS too... That's not completely unlikely - I'm sure it may have done a few small groups. Sometimes the fliers go into the group. HOWEVER, for it to consistently shoot like that... I most sincerely doubt it.
Not world record - world record is considerably smaller...
Hmmm... Of course, maybe the fellow is talking about shooting 3 shot groups. Or 2 shot groups. Or just "throwing out" the fliers...
Sigh.
Guys, it's about consistency. SERIOUS consistency - not the group you carry around in your wallet to show the guys at the gun store. I'm talking about the stack of targets in the trunk of your car.
If you want a good target rifle, seriously, give Bob at Shooters Corner (via benchrest.com) a call. He'll hook you up. It may not be painted black, and more than likely, it will not have a springy bouncy bipod bolted on, but it will shoot.*
And before you discount the ballistics on the benchrest guns, check out the numbers - I usually run my 6PPC at around 3425ish with a 68 grain bullet... Welcome to the land of custom actions, custom barrels, and putting five shots through one little bitty hole.
*At your local gun store, if you ask someone "Will it shoot?" they'll reply in the affirmative, and tell you that it'll hit a deer every time.
Talking to a benchrest guy, if you ask "Will it shoot?" they'll think a moment, and then give you a rundown on potential group size - and if it has a potential of agging between 0.25" and 0.35" they'll tell you that it'll make an excellent varmint gun, but they wouldn't really recommend it for competition.
If Bob White from Shooters Corner says something "will shoot," then you'll likely be pleasantly surprised.
And a LOT of benchrest gunsmiths built/build varmint guns.
Dude, where do you live - gotta be somewhere in the area interested in "target" shooting.
Not world record - world record is considerably smaller...
Hmmm... Of course, maybe the fellow is talking about shooting 3 shot groups. Or 2 shot groups. Or just "throwing out" the fliers...
Sigh.
Guys, it's about consistency. SERIOUS consistency - not the group you carry around in your wallet to show the guys at the gun store. I'm talking about the stack of targets in the trunk of your car.
If you want a good target rifle, seriously, give Bob at Shooters Corner (via benchrest.com) a call. He'll hook you up. It may not be painted black, and more than likely, it will not have a springy bouncy bipod bolted on, but it will shoot.*
And before you discount the ballistics on the benchrest guns, check out the numbers - I usually run my 6PPC at around 3425ish with a 68 grain bullet... Welcome to the land of custom actions, custom barrels, and putting five shots through one little bitty hole.
*At your local gun store, if you ask someone "Will it shoot?" they'll reply in the affirmative, and tell you that it'll hit a deer every time.
Talking to a benchrest guy, if you ask "Will it shoot?" they'll think a moment, and then give you a rundown on potential group size - and if it has a potential of agging between 0.25" and 0.35" they'll tell you that it'll make an excellent varmint gun, but they wouldn't really recommend it for competition.
If Bob White from Shooters Corner says something "will shoot," then you'll likely be pleasantly surprised.
And a LOT of benchrest gunsmiths built/build varmint guns.
Dude, where do you live - gotta be somewhere in the area interested in "target" shooting.
cpttango30 retorted:
It's no skin off my posterior. I know what it shoots, and it fires these groups consistently. Would all SPSs fire this well? Perhaps not. Could it be simply that I received a "Lottery-equivalent" of the SPSs? Yes, it could be.
I have been accused of "lying" before...by the range office at Bald Mountain who became froth-at-the-mouth enraged, because I denied being a professional shootist. Go figure.
As I understand it, the national ranking and world ranking groups are far smaller than those that I fire! The world class groups, I understand to be, in the 0.04 to 0.07 range.
My reputation in life means more to me, than to attempt to falsely impress people here, or anywhere. Believe what you will.
Geno
It's no skin off my posterior. I know what it shoots, and it fires these groups consistently. Would all SPSs fire this well? Perhaps not. Could it be simply that I received a "Lottery-equivalent" of the SPSs? Yes, it could be.
I have been accused of "lying" before...by the range office at Bald Mountain who became froth-at-the-mouth enraged, because I denied being a professional shootist. Go figure.
As I understand it, the national ranking and world ranking groups are far smaller than those that I fire! The world class groups, I understand to be, in the 0.04 to 0.07 range.
My reputation in life means more to me, than to attempt to falsely impress people here, or anywhere. Believe what you will.
Geno
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williamthedog
Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2006
- Messages
- 97
i have been trying to get 10 groups of 5 shots each on one target for awhile that are under 1/4 in. @ 50 yds. with my cz452
it aint easy!
is that what you mean by consistancy bogie?
it aint easy!
is that what you mean by consistancy bogie?
shadowalker
Member
Savage builds a fine rifle, there are still more after market parts for the Remington 700 though and calling the 700 SPS crap is a bit biased.
The Remington 700 SPS Varmint reliably gives .50 to .75 MOA accuracy with the fairly bad factory stock. You should be able to get one without optics for about $515.
Later you can upgrade the stock to the HS-Precision stock and often get a sub to .50 MOA rifle. By doing the stock upgrade you have build a Remington 700P of course the nice thing is if you don't like the HS-Precision stock you can get a different one..
Snipercentral has a pretty good review on it.
The Remington 700 SPS Varmint reliably gives .50 to .75 MOA accuracy with the fairly bad factory stock. You should be able to get one without optics for about $515.
Later you can upgrade the stock to the HS-Precision stock and often get a sub to .50 MOA rifle. By doing the stock upgrade you have build a Remington 700P of course the nice thing is if you don't like the HS-Precision stock you can get a different one..
Snipercentral has a pretty good review on it.
Wow, thanks so much guys!
Bogie, I live in Orrstown, PA.
Shadowalker, I'm more concerned about getting a fine shooter out of the box than I am about tons of after market parts. However, I certainly haven't ruled out the 700.
~Dale
Bogie, I live in Orrstown, PA.
Shadowalker, I'm more concerned about getting a fine shooter out of the box than I am about tons of after market parts. However, I certainly haven't ruled out the 700.
~Dale
robctwo
Member
I took my .223 Savage 10FP out to the range yesterday for the first time in over a year. It has a DuraMax stock. I was shooting at 100 yards. I make my own targets with 1" squares and circles. Couldn't hardly miss. buddy of mine shot it at 50 yards. Bullet replaced the black dot in the center of his target. I run reloads, easy to load and economical.
I have the CZ .204 I'm still working up loads for. Also have the Savage .308FP. Like the .223 the best so far.
I have the CZ .204 I'm still working up loads for. Also have the Savage .308FP. Like the .223 the best so far.
Yeah too bad they shoot so well. Savage on the other hand is known for their awesome stocks huh? Savage makes fine rifles, no doubt, but the stocks, especially on their more inexpensive models, leave something to be desired. I have owned 9 different remington 700's, and the worst one shot .9 moa out of the box. The best one I've shot .25" 3 shot groups with, but honestly I can't do it consistently enough to call it a .25" rifle.
B.S. 9x is more than ample for 300 yards. I've since upgraded in the scope department, but I started with a simmons 3-9, which is probably worse than a tasco. I could always hold 1.5" at 300 yards, and I've shot many 3 shot groups under an inch at 300 with that simmons. Granted the tasco will not hold up to much abuse and would not be my first choice, but the power is not a limiting factor at that range. The Army and Marines use a fixed 10x on their sniper rifles, and I believe they might take a shot or 2 out past 300yds.
I do alot of hunting all over the world, especially in Alaska, and for people whose rifles are tools of their trade, l have noticed the leupold variX-III/vxIII is the scope of choice by a long, long shot. I have not once heard a guide say "man I'm stuck with this P.O.S. Leupold, I wish I'd got a Bushnell instead."
It is consistency of doing that that makes the difference. As you imply, some people will do something once and then act as if that is the standard way that rifle shoots. I have shot a number of .25" 3 shot groups with a wood stocked remington 700 classic in .223. Would I be willing to plunk down a $100 bill that I could go to any range on any given day and do that?...No way! On the other hand, Aside from shooting in severe wind, I would be willing to bet I can shoot .5 moa with my Rem 700 5R anywhere/anytime. So I'm willing to call that a .5 rifle(in my hands, honestly I think I am the limiting factor.)
Tarvis
Member
Cpttango30 seems to hate Remington, but the SPS line has 3 different models with different stocks. Sniper Centrals review had a 700 SPS Varmint in 308 shooting .75 moa with the standard stock and .5 moa with a HS Precision stock off of a 700P. From what I've read, the 700 SPS is the same barrel and action as the 700P line with a cheap stock on it.
Edit: Someone already mentioned SC.com's review. I didn't read page 2 first. I fail.
Edit: Someone already mentioned SC.com's review. I didn't read page 2 first. I fail.
cpttango30
Member
Tarvis I am just the opposite I love Remington. In fact My safe now is so full of Remington rifles I can't fit another rifle in there.
I have 2 Remington 511 22lr, 1 Remington Model 30, and one 1917 Remington target rifle, and my Baby My REMINGTON 700 VLS in 223.
I really dislike the fact that Remington's quality has shot down to that of a cheap import in the time sine the take over.
I have seen at least 2 dozen SPS line rifles on the range where I shoot and not a single one of them would shoot under 2" at 100 yards. One no matter what we do to it will not shoot under 4" at 100 yards. I
Savage has some cheap azz stocks as well Tikka and other rifle manufactures. I have a SPS varmint stock right now that I use for ground hog hunting because I don't want to mess up my good stock. The SPS stocks are nothing more than beater furniture I am not scared to scratch nick or ding.
That is just what I have observed over time. I was just in a gun store today and picked up a Remington 700 sps. The stock was curved so bad to a point where half way down the barrel it was touching on one side. brag all you want to on them I will not accept crap from a company that is known for producing fine very accurate rifles that used to be affordable.
Putting a cheap stock on a rifle kind of defeats the purpose when you have to go and buy a decent stock does it not?
I think Remington could and should do better for its customers. Until they do I will not buy another Remington which I hate to say.
I take a ton of flak n other message boards for being such a staunch Remington man. I didn't become this way for no reason. I grew up shooting mostly custom rifles built with loving care one at a time that would and did win many benchrest matches. Most of them were M98's and a few 03 Springfield's.
As far as my choice in optics. Many people buy Leupold because they are good scopes. I didn't say they were all bad but like Remington I have seen a decline in quality in the last years. My Bushnell 4200 is brighter and has better clarity than my Leupold. Plus when you adjust the power my Bushnell does not change the eye relief as much as my Leupold. That being said If I were to ever buy another Leupold it would be the VX-III and nothing else. But if i didn't have the money for the VX-III I would not hesitate to go with a Bushnell elite 4200 once for once It is the best scope coming out of Japan today (Not counting the 10-60x52mm March that runs $2000+).
Just like their are scopes that are better than Leupold their are rifles better than Remington. You like what you like I like what I like.
I suppose because I don't want some ugly looking 50mm objective scope I am a 50mm hater too right. I think 50mm objectives are just about worthless for 90+% of the people who buy them. I can't count how many people I have seen shooting with their new super cool Mall Ninja 50mm scope that can barely get their chin on the stock let alone get a good cheek weld with the stock.
I have 2 Remington 511 22lr, 1 Remington Model 30, and one 1917 Remington target rifle, and my Baby My REMINGTON 700 VLS in 223.
I really dislike the fact that Remington's quality has shot down to that of a cheap import in the time sine the take over.
I have seen at least 2 dozen SPS line rifles on the range where I shoot and not a single one of them would shoot under 2" at 100 yards. One no matter what we do to it will not shoot under 4" at 100 yards. I
Savage has some cheap azz stocks as well Tikka and other rifle manufactures. I have a SPS varmint stock right now that I use for ground hog hunting because I don't want to mess up my good stock. The SPS stocks are nothing more than beater furniture I am not scared to scratch nick or ding.
That is just what I have observed over time. I was just in a gun store today and picked up a Remington 700 sps. The stock was curved so bad to a point where half way down the barrel it was touching on one side. brag all you want to on them I will not accept crap from a company that is known for producing fine very accurate rifles that used to be affordable.
Putting a cheap stock on a rifle kind of defeats the purpose when you have to go and buy a decent stock does it not?
I think Remington could and should do better for its customers. Until they do I will not buy another Remington which I hate to say.
I take a ton of flak n other message boards for being such a staunch Remington man. I didn't become this way for no reason. I grew up shooting mostly custom rifles built with loving care one at a time that would and did win many benchrest matches. Most of them were M98's and a few 03 Springfield's.
As far as my choice in optics. Many people buy Leupold because they are good scopes. I didn't say they were all bad but like Remington I have seen a decline in quality in the last years. My Bushnell 4200 is brighter and has better clarity than my Leupold. Plus when you adjust the power my Bushnell does not change the eye relief as much as my Leupold. That being said If I were to ever buy another Leupold it would be the VX-III and nothing else. But if i didn't have the money for the VX-III I would not hesitate to go with a Bushnell elite 4200 once for once It is the best scope coming out of Japan today (Not counting the 10-60x52mm March that runs $2000+).
Just like their are scopes that are better than Leupold their are rifles better than Remington. You like what you like I like what I like.
I suppose because I don't want some ugly looking 50mm objective scope I am a 50mm hater too right. I think 50mm objectives are just about worthless for 90+% of the people who buy them. I can't count how many people I have seen shooting with their new super cool Mall Ninja 50mm scope that can barely get their chin on the stock let alone get a good cheek weld with the stock.
Tarvis
Member
I see now, it's just the SPS line that gets to you. From my understanding, the ADL line was dropped and replaced by the SPS line to compete with Savage and the like. A cheap stock is how they get the price down, but as far as how inaccurate they actually are, I couldn't tell you as I don't have one and haven't fired one.
As far as the low-end rifles go, or in general?
I suspect that we are not talking about the SPS Varmint rifles. If one reads Remington's information, the sole difference between the barreled actions of the Remington's SPS Varmint model, and Remington's top-of-the-line Varmint rifle, is finish. Some high-end models have an with aluminum bedding block, and some have the old model trigger. However, in terms of the action itself, all of Remington's varmint models are identical: barrel, bolt and receiver.
While some people complain about the SPS's trigger, mine is extraordinary. It may help that I use a 36X scope, a bipod and a sandbag under the buttstock, but all the same, mine is outstanding.
Strongbad
Member
Add another to the pile of SPS votes.
Varmint or Tactical, take your pick. They're shooters. A little more than what you were planning on spending, but I don't think you'll have any regrets.
Varmint or Tactical, take your pick. They're shooters. A little more than what you were planning on spending, but I don't think you'll have any regrets.
Olympus
Member
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2008
- Messages
- 4,212
I like the give Savage guys a hard way to go. I wouldn't own a Savage if one was given to me. I'm die-hard Remington. I'm glad someone gave the Remington 700 VLS a shout-out! I have one in .223 and I couldn't be more happier. I've done a little accurizing work to it and I have yet to see someone with a Savage that can outshoot my Remington. I actually went to the range last Sunday to fine tune her. First shot took the upper right leg off the X. The guy in the booth beside me must have been looking at my target because after I shot my 5-shot group he hollered across asking what the hell it was I was shooting. Buy a VLS and not only will it outshoot a Savage, but it looks 10 times more classy. Savage are great guns don't get me wrong, but they haven't had near the amount of years of time-tested accuracy as a Remington 700! Makes me smile knowing that Marine Corps snipers aren't carrying Savages....but Remington 700s.
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cpttango30
Member
Doc the worst one of the bunch was a SPS Varmint (With the OD Green widefore end stock) in 22-250. For the life of 3 guys we can not get the thing to shoot worth a hoot. I am talking 50, 52, 53 and 55gr bullets all shoot into atleast 4" at 100 yards. I really think he got a big fat lemon.
Yes the SPS line replaced the ADL line of rifles.
I do not believe the only difference is the stock. I do believe they spend less time and have loser Quality Control over the SPS Line.
Just over all as in quality price (I understand price is largely upon the end dealer) and offerings. Why not offer 22 cal center fires with a 1-9" twist? Savage does this on some rifles. Man if Remington came out with a F-class rifle like savage did I am sure there would be guys like me lining up to buy that puppy. I just think there is a trend in the firearms indursty to go lower in quality and charge higher prices. Just like AR rifles. Why is it that a rifle that can be built by just about one one on this board or anyother board it can be maintained by a drunk monkey has no real fitting like many other rifles out there cost so much? Ar are cheap to manufacture and build that is one reason the military likes them so much. You don't have a bunch of machining to do in the manufacturing process. yet you pay as much for them as a good semi custom bolt gun?
Yes the SPS line replaced the ADL line of rifles.
I do not believe the only difference is the stock. I do believe they spend less time and have loser Quality Control over the SPS Line.
Tarvis said:
Just over all as in quality price (I understand price is largely upon the end dealer) and offerings. Why not offer 22 cal center fires with a 1-9" twist? Savage does this on some rifles. Man if Remington came out with a F-class rifle like savage did I am sure there would be guys like me lining up to buy that puppy. I just think there is a trend in the firearms indursty to go lower in quality and charge higher prices. Just like AR rifles. Why is it that a rifle that can be built by just about one one on this board or anyother board it can be maintained by a drunk monkey has no real fitting like many other rifles out there cost so much? Ar are cheap to manufacture and build that is one reason the military likes them so much. You don't have a bunch of machining to do in the manufacturing process. yet you pay as much for them as a good semi custom bolt gun?
michael_aos
Member
1:9" twist 223 sure wouldn't be a bad place to start.
I had a 26" 1:9" twist Remington 700P in 223 a few years ago. Just didn't balance well and really felt like a pig.
Lately I've been shooting a Remington 700P LTR rebarreled in 22BR. 22" bbl, 1:8" twist Lilja.
75gr Hornady A-MAX right at 3000fps.
On paper, the .435 BC doesn't fare as well in the wind as 6mm BR, 243 Win, 260 Remington, etc. but it sure is fun to shoot. It's just AMAZINGLY accurate.
I've heard some great things lately about the 223AI as well.
Mike
I had a 26" 1:9" twist Remington 700P in 223 a few years ago. Just didn't balance well and really felt like a pig.
Lately I've been shooting a Remington 700P LTR rebarreled in 22BR. 22" bbl, 1:8" twist Lilja.
75gr Hornady A-MAX right at 3000fps.
On paper, the .435 BC doesn't fare as well in the wind as 6mm BR, 243 Win, 260 Remington, etc. but it sure is fun to shoot. It's just AMAZINGLY accurate.
I've heard some great things lately about the 223AI as well.
Mike
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