Tell me about H&K Pistols

[RussB]

The wisdom in this thread makes me feel we should all just buy hi points because if cheap is better, cheapest is the best!

 

[TarDevil]

You boys have fun with your HK hate, ya hear!?

Personally, I don't hate HK's at all and haven't made the slightest derogatory comments about them. Guess Rugers are in season, eh?

 

[Sam1911]

The wisdom in this thread makes me feel we should all just buy hi points because if cheap is better, cheapest is the best!

Once more -- the cost is not the relevant factor.

IF your shot timer and score tell you that you shoot a Hi-Point faster with better hits than an HK, BUY THE HI-POINT. IF your shot timer and score tell you that you shoot an HK faster with better hits than an Hi-Point, BUY THE HK. To do otherwise would be -- no real other way to put this -- stupidity. Fast hits are the goal. Again, assuming reasonable reliability, nothing else truly matters.

 

[Sam Cade]

Interesting tidbit:

Inflation adjusted MSRPs from a 1994 Gun Digest.

Glock G17: $915.31
Sig P226: $1,270.38 (base model)
S&W 4506: $1,170.96 (base model)
Colt Series 80: $1,095.21
HK USP: $984.75

 

[Zaydok Allen]

^^^^^^^ Ha! Now that is an interesting bit of info Sam.

 

[Sam Cade]

If you figure 80% if MSRP as street price a USP costs about the same now as it did when it was introduced.

A Glock is MUCH cheaper now than it was in 1994.

 

[tarosean]

The point is, Ruger has had multiple recalls in very recent history, yet no one can remember HK ever having one.

Quote:
USC/UMP were recalled...

...which would be great material for the Rifle section.

Your statement was towards Heckler & Koch as a company. Not individual product lines. I simply corrected the oversight.



FWIW: I hated the trigger on the P30L I had. However, I recently was contemplating an HK45c LEM to give them another chance as I did like the balance and ergonomics. In the end though I went with another 1911.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

It would be interesting to look at inflation rates in Germany and Austria as well, and see how the current going rate relates to the cost of HKs and GLOCKS in their homelands as compared to America. I suppose if they try to maintain a certain profit margin it should be proportional to their inflation rates.

 

[clang]

I've got exactly 1 HK in my safe - a Stainless USP45 set up for a lefty (I have no idea what variant it's called, nor do I care).

My only concern when buying this gun was the stories I've heard about HK's terrible customer service, but my one experience with them was completely the opposite. The welds on the seam of one of my mags came undone (probably from dropping the empty it too many times). The mags from HK are ridiculously expensive, so I contacted HK CS to see if they could fix it. They asked me to ship them the mag. A couple of weeks later the mag was returned to me with the welds repaired and they included an extra brand new mag too.

H&K treated me more than fair and I appreciate it.

 

[tarosean]

It would be interesting to look at inflation rates in Germany and Austria as well, and see how the current going rate relates to the cost of HKs and GLOCKS in their homelands as compared to America.

I dont think inflation has much to do with it...

More so production. I dont think HK produces the shear number of guns that some of these other companies do. therefor cannot sell at a rock bottom prices and maintain profitability.

If you look at our import numbers from the ATF in 2011. we imported the following amount of handguns.

Germany - 265,092 (Heckler & Koch, Walther GMBH, ?????)
Austria - 515,396 (Glock, Steyer Mannlicher. ?????)

(Question marks for little known companies that might be importing too)

Unfortunately the ATF doesn't break their numbers down by companies. However its a pretty safe bet that Glock imports a lot more than Steyer. Not sure about the split in Germany though.

 

[Tejicano Loco]

I bought my HK USP45 in 1998 and paid well under $700 brand new. Right out of the box I could shoot it better than any gun I have ever owned - and I have about 30 handguns, mostly modern hi-caps. I thought the Para-Ord I built to my personal desires would be the only gun I would ever carry until then. I am really more of a 1911 fan.

It has been a phenominal performer for me. Shooting against an old buddy with his favorite Glock left an impression on him - the next time we went out to shoot his Glock was gone and he had an HK USP.

Knowing what I know now I don't know if I would pay $1,200 for one - but I might.

I'm not really an HK fanboy either. I really like my USP but it's the only HK I have. That being said I feel I should disclose the fact that I have made the pilgrimage to Oberndorf to see the Mauserwerke museum there.

 

[Black Butte]

I own three Glocks, G19, G26, G33, G36.

I only own one: a G20 and a G23.

 

[csa77]

id guess the cost of an HK pistol isn't the reason you don't see them commonly in competitive shooting.

reliability and accuracy is just as important to competitors as it is to a HK owner.

 

[PO2Hammer]

A Glock is MUCH cheaper now than it was in 1994.

Yup, they keep finding new and interesting ways to cut costs.

 

[ZEN.45]

I’m always surprised when H&K prices are being discussed on gun forums. On this side of the Atlantic a P30 is about 125 $ more than a Glock and about the same price as a MP9.

 

[Sam1911]

id guess the cost of an HK pistol isn't the reason you don't see them commonly in competitive shooting.

reliability and accuracy is just as important to competitors as it is to a HK owner.

Exactly! Competitors in the practical, action, and/or defensive shooting disciplines spend A LOT of money on their equipment. When your ammo budget for the year is between 10,000 and 80,000 (or more?) rounds a year and your match fees alone are costing more than a new gun or two, if a gun shoots better, faster, more accurately, you really don't think twice about dropping the coin.

No serious competitor says, "I think I'll buy a lesser gun because I could save $400." No way.

Competition is the test bed, where anything and everything is tried to gain an advantage. 100ths of a second of consistently faster hits will be enough to induce a shooter to buy a different kind of gun, and there's thousands -- hundreds of thousands, probably -- of shooters in the various disciplines trying this, that, and whatever. Anything that works better for more folks will be adopted widely. Wide success in the practical competition fields really means something.

 

[tarosean]

On this side of the Atlantic a P30 is about 125 $ more than a Glock and about the same price as a MP9.

Curiosity got the better of me so I checked out Lidy Arms, Aaschot.

GLOCK 17 GEN 3 9 X 19 mm 599,- €
CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow 9 X 19 mm 999,- €
Dan Wesson "Pointsman Seven" .45 acp 1.339,- €
BROWNING GP Practical 9 X 19 mm 925,- €

Conversions are approximately.

824 USD for the Glock
1374 USD for the CZ
1925 USD for the DW
1272 USD for the BHP

Im thinking some posters shouldnt be complaining about overpriced...

 

[righteoushoot]

I recently picked up a Used P2000SK in .357 + .40. Came with NS and extra mags and some other stuff. Has the LEM. This helped get around the topic of higher priced than the Glock. I had a P30 V3, but hated the trigger, but wanted an external hammer.

Now, I have the external hammer, which Glock does not have (I checked ) which was a big + for me. Love the V1 Light LEM trigger, and I like to carry a 1911.

I had personal issues paying New prices, so I bought used. For me, the ergos with the 12 round mag and the X-Grip are superior (again, for me) to the Glock 26 I have with the equivalent G19 Mag setup. No safeties to mess with and Double strike capability, which Glock does NOT have. I checked.

So, just so you know I am not biased, I also just picked up a G29 Gen4. I guess I don't like to eat the same thing for dinner every night, so to speak.

 

[sota]

I'm going to copy and link back to a thread on HKPRO that gives a good explaination.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-talk/179650-hk-s-really-superior.html

Why HK?

1. Most are designed, built and tested to NATO MIL specs (ACC-225), not commercial specs. NATO specs includes tests not conducted by many commercial makers such as drop tests, obstructed bore tests, extreme temps, ice, static sand, OTB, elevated/depressed, etc.

2. All (100%) of HK firearms are test fired and zeroed at the factory. In some companies only a % are tested.

3. HK materials (steel, barrel, etc.) are of the highest quality available and it shows in long-term or worst case scenarios. The superior barrel performance is a good example, though you may never see it in casual use.

4. HK pistols are not assembled by armorers’ students and then sold to customers. Some companies have been known to do so.

5. The average German worker is paid at a far higher rate than the equivalent US worker. Part of the reasons why includes the mandatory training they must receive and tests they must pass before receiving the position. The cost of living in Germany is also higher and HK contributes to a substantial “Pensioner Fund” for its retirees. Many also work at the same company for decades and not uncommon are 40 year employees!) and therefore rise high on the pay scale for their extensive hard-earned skill and experience.

6. HK barrels are made by a cold hammer forged process using a material that is unique to HK guns. Many barrels get special HK-unique steps added such as a tapered, poly, hybrid poly bore profile or induction hardening and all long-gun barrels are straightened. As an example, Stelite liners are not used in HK MG barrels – they are simply not needed and perform as well or better.

7. Compare the polymer molding and machining of say an HK P30 and a SIG P229. It is RARE to see machining marks on an HK.

8. HK rigorously tests their products to destruction in a "Firing Lab" manned with very senior test personnel before the design is frozen. This reduces the incidence of post-release issues. HK also takes and test its products at remote environmental test facilities to include desert (Yuma Proving Grounds, Saudi Arabia), arctic (Norway, Alaska), jungle (Brunei, Panama). That costs BIG bucks but pays off in hard core performance.

9. HK guns are imported for the most part (or the parts used to assemble them in NH) are imported. That results in mandatory FET, freight and exchange rate subsidies being added and passed on to the customer. HK as a German gun maker and importer they also have to comply with stringent export controls and that too costs money, which gets passed along in sale prices.

10. The cost of the production tooling (and materials) used by HK to produce, assemble and QA product is high as it includes QA tests and steps not conducted by many other makers. HK cut its teeth as a mass producer and still today builds the production tooling with that in mind –high volumes with a lot of automation. That tooling and gauging costs money as does the high hourly rates of the skilled workers and the additional time required to conduct it.

11. 10-20% of HK’s annual operating budget is spent on its extensive “Technique” departments to include Design, Prototype Fabrication and the Firing Lab. These are the highest paid, most skilled workers at HK and that costs money as well. They are best of breed and always have many more projects up in the air then you might think, or know of (Phased Plasma Rifle in the 80 watt Range).

12. HK places itself purposely in the “higher end” of the market. Like BMW and Mercedes HK knows it rates are higher and always will be compared to say Colt, S&W, Beretta, etc. So they go after superior performance and quality at a higher price point to fewer purchasers versus a cheaper, lower quality product to more buyers.

13. @ 15% of HK annual revenue is reinvested in new products, and infrastructure. While that may not seem like a lot it is and the state of the factory at in Oberndorf shows it. Look at the state of their competitors factories. There are few that compare to HK GmbH in the eyes of those who have been to many others. HK spends the revenue it makes off of both commercial and Government sales on new product so in a way the US commercial buyer who purchases an HK45 pistol helps fund the development of the MG4 LMG or XM25.

14. HK builds much of the weapon parts in house to maintain quality control. While cheaper subs are available one loses some control in doing so. HK’s goal has always been to minimize cost but maintain quality and to do so it keeps many items in house that in many others companies go to the higher bidder (magazines, small piece parts, etc.). HK also has some of the very best MIM and molding capabilities and can thus up the quality of their product by using their own, superior product.

15. Like HK, HK’s subs are of a higher quality for the same reasons and with the same end results. You buy the very best frame mold in Germany, it will cost you but the end product is superior.

16. Interchangeable parts – very few HK parts are not fully interchangeable without hand fitting. Even in a gun like the GMG, there are no parts that require hand fitting. This requires that each and every raw material and finished part, and each tool that fabricates the part, is dimensionally and exactly the same and maintained the same at all time by constant checks by skilled personnel with high dollar measuring devices and gauges. Again something you may never see but it insures when you replace a part it both fits and works w/o modifications.

17. HK has voluntarily developed, tested and included in their product unique features like USP firing mode modularity, MK23 barrel O-rings, special high performance finishes, unique G36/HK416 gas systems, drop-in LEM trigger systems, side-loading 40mm grenade launchers, GMG’s with extruded aluminum receivers and HK211’s with Ti receivers, unique cartridges for things like MP7 and P46, etc. HK also makes over 100 models of HK firearms currently and 1000’s of modular variants for users the world over speaking many languages, which costs money to build, inventory, document and record these countless production variations.

MODS: if either violates some ToS please feel free to either correct or let me know to correct.

 

[mooner]

They stay in business, so they must not be too overpriced. I think we would see the price drop if they couldn't find enough people that see the value (real or perceived).

As for me? If I were to purchase a handgun in the $1000 dollar range (I haven't yet) it would not be an H&K. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

I do find it interesting that they don't focus more on competition. I wonder if we will either see that change, or if it will bite them.

 

[rtz]

I started off with Glocks. Got XD, M&P, 24/7, etc.. Got SIG's. Played with 1911's. Only thing left was HK's. HK's are cheap compared to some 1911's and only a bit more than some SIG's.

Shame they are expensive. First time you handle one though; they are nice.

If you don't have HK's yet; get one, play with it. Don't like it? Sell it off. They hold their value:

http://summitgunbroker.com/usp-40-v1.html

 

[Sam1911]

I do find it interesting that they don't focus more on competition. I wonder if we will either see that change, or if it will bite them.

I'm sure they, and all other gun makers, ponder those sorts of questions a lot. When you have a good product, a relatively successful product, at what point do you change it or abandon it to make your products excel when driven hard against competing designs? If they can sell all the pistols they really care to sell right now, there's no immediate reason to make a vast departure from their old reliable designs.

Think of S&W in the '90s with their very successful and reliable series of autos, but killing that line to make the polymer/striker M&P. Something told them they'd need to take the huge gamble of ending something good in order to try to take their place in the group at the real head of the pack. They did, and it really worked for them. Probably even better than they'd hoped.

Will SIG and HK be able to do that? I surely believe so -- they aren't suicidal or into building strictly nostalgia pieces -- but obviously it won't happen (ISN'T happening) until the cutting edge has moved a long way away from their current offerings.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm going to copy and link back to a thread on HKPRO that gives a good explaination.

I don't even know where to start with that, other than to say the entire list could have the name and location of many, many manufacturers substituted and hold the same amount of truth.

Compare the polymer molding and machining of say an HK P30 and a SIG P229

I mean, seriously? Compare the polymer molding of an HK to an ALLOY framed handgun? What exactly are we comparing?

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Sam you are right... It is like the 1911 builders, there is only so many ways to make them. Hk ans Sig make great pistols. I trust my life to a Sig everyday. I don't want a striker fired pistol, so I am glad that these companies have not gone that way. I am the person that has to have an external hammer. I truly think that Sig and Hk are at the top of the game on their hammer style pistols.

 

[TarDevil]

I don't even know where to start with that, other than to say the entire list could have the name and location of many, many manufacturers substituted and hold the same amount of truth.

+1... beat me to it.