Tell me again why they shouldn't be armed?

[Sunray]

Read this. http://www2.hernandotoday.com/content/2009/apr/16/ha-gun-control-on-the-high-seas/

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Now Lebanon was special in the early 80's I think of those Marines that got blown up. It will be years later before I learn some things about what actually went on behind the scenes as the whole situation unfolded then. I got angry then, Im still angry today.

Why is it that we are now a Nation that is so.. conflicted within ourselves to even summon the resolve and pull ourselves together and fight. I am seeing things in the media today that I would consider Treason.

Wars we dont get to sit down and say ok, we have all the stuff we want now and we are ready to have a game. NO! Wars come to us, as a Nation, in different ways and it does NOT matter what we think about the problem.

The Economy is slow. According to the Baltic Dry Index what little I can learn from Market sources, we have parked a great deal of excess capacity in ships sitting near Manila and other places anchored and at half pay and empty because there is NO FREIGHT to haul.

The ships that are loaded and sailing should avoid Somalia all together and go round the Cape of Good Hope south of Africa. The additional expense in days at sea and fuel as well as payroll is less than the potential LOSS, Expense and delivery schedule complications.

Yes the Gulf of Aden is a nice short cut, yes the Indonesian Waters are doing what they can to control Piracy and yes the big Pacific Ocean is easy to get around in and nothing much is going on in the Atlantic.

Until these shipping companys stop being so stupid, single minded and stubborn sailing past Somalia this piracy problem will continue.

We have been dealing with this for many months now and I would for one like to see the Merchants stay the hell away from Somalia and free our Navy and those of our Allies up so that they can go elsewhere and do something useful.

This is not to say that the Navy that we have in the area is not useful.

Listen to me carefully. It is better not to have to get dragged into a fight with a dirt poor, desitute third world nation like Somalia because of piracy. They can sit there on the beach and starve for all I care or they can LEARN to get to Nationhood, find something productive as a New Nation and make it happen with trade, hard work and such.

I worry that because of this war in Somali waters, someone is going to take a hold of a regular old fat tub, fill it with missiles or weapons and come here and hurt us pretty badly.

Because we are too stupid to get the merchies the HELL AWAY from a known trouble area.

 

[Daizee]

When my unarmed ship was attacked by Somali pirates they fired on us without provocation (unless you count running away as provocation).
What I would have given for a half dozen 12ga shotguns...

-Daizee

 

[rojocorsa]

Also we've signed treaties prohibiting arms on board ships that will dock in other countries.
Why'ed we sign beats me.

Remember we must abide by the UN treaties we sign.

I guess we need to change this.
___________________________________________
Check out this news story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090415/pl_politico/21245

Erika Lovley Erika Lovley – Wed Apr 15, 5:16 am ET

A little-known congressional power could help the federal government keep the Somali pirates in check — and possibly do it for a discount price.

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) and a growing number of national security experts are calling on Congress to consider using letters of marque and reprisal, a power written into the Constitution that allows the United States to hire private citizens to keep international waters safe.

Used heavily during the Revolution and the War of 1812, letters of marque serve as official warrants from the government, allowing privateers to seize or destroy enemies, their loot and their vessels in exchange for bounty money.

The letters also require would-be thrill seekers to post a bond promising to abide by international rules of war.

In a YouTube video earlier this week, Paul suggested lawmakers consider issuing letters, which could relieve American naval ships from being the nation’s primary pirate responders — a free-market solution to make the high seas safer for cargo ships.

“I think if every potential pirate knew this would be the case, they would have second thoughts because they could probably be blown out of the water rather easily if those were the conditions,” Paul said.

Theoretically, hiring bounty hunters would also be a cheaper option.

National security experts estimate that this week’s ship captain rescue by Navy SEALs cost tens of millions, although a Navy spokesman says the military cannot confirm the exact cost of the mission.

Instead, privateers would be incentivized to patrol the ocean looking for key targets — and money would be paid only to the contractor who completed the job.

“If we have 100 American wanna-be Rambos patrolling the seas, it’s probably a good way of getting the job done,” said Competitive Enterprise Institute senior fellow and security expert Eli Lehrer. “Right now we have a Navy designed mostly to fight other navies. The weapons we have are all excellent, but they may not be the best ones to fight these kinds of pirates. The only cost under letters of marque would be some sort of bounty for the pirates.”

According to Senate historians, Congress hasn’t issued a letter of marquee since the War of 1812, but the Confederate States of America issued them during the Civil War to deliver supplies behind enemy lines. There are also some indications that a letter was granted to a flying band of armed civilians during World War II to operate the Resolute, a Goodyear Blimp used to patrol the ocean for enemy submarines, but the issuance isn’t apparent in the Congressional Record.

If Congress were to revisit the antiquated process, a serious makeover would be required.

In the past, privateers were allowed to keep the ship and treasure they captured in an enemy encounter.

“That isn’t a viable way of funding in today’s world,” said Lehrer. “These pirates don’t really have treasure chests, and their money is tied up in Swiss Bank accounts. Congress would probably have to attach sizable bounties to people.”

Bounties are not a new idea — there is still a $25 million bounty on Osama bin Laden, and millions have been awarded by the government for other enemy captures.



The U.S. State Department earlier this month put a $5 million bounty on the head of the top Pakistani Taliban leader, and even local police departments use rewards to solve cold cases.

University of Oregon economics professor Bill Harbaugh argues the setup could potentially work better than some of the United States’ relationships with modern-day security contractors.

“Obviously, this is somewhat like the contract the government had with Blackwater, except we forgot the bond part of the contract, he said. “If Congress had used this contract from 1776, it would have been more sophisticated than the one they issued with Blackwater.”

Harbaugh’s fifth great-grandfather, Silas Talbot, worked as an early privateer for the United States in 1780 after serving in the Revolutionary War. His letter of marque shows he set out with 12 carriage guns and a crew of 50 men to attack and seize cargo ships coming from Great Britain on the high seas.

Could it really work again?

“It may work in the sense that if you give people incentives to fight piracy, you’ll see more action taken against it,” said Andrew Grotto, a senior national security analyst with the Center for American Progress. “The ocean is huge and, practically speaking, there’s no way the Navy can prevent piracy; it’s too big. But just given the experience in Iraq with private contractors, that effort showcases the difficulties dealing with folks who aren’t answerable to anyone but shareholders.”

But Paul has already thought through a number of these updates.

Days after Sept. 11, Paul introduced legislation allowing President Bush to allow private citizens to go after Osama bin Laden and other identified terrorists and put a bounty price on the heads of targets responsible for the New York attacks. Contractors would also be required to post a play-by-the-rules bond and turn over any terrorists — and their seized property —to U.S. authorities.

“The Constitution gives Congress the power to issue letters of marque and reprisal when a precise declaration of war is impossible due to the vagueness of the enemy,” Paul wrote in a press release. “Once letters of marque and reprisal are issued, every terrorist is essentially a marked man.”

But national security experts and legal analysts warn that applying a colonial-era policy to a modern-day problem could be wrought with legal pitfalls that the Founding Fathers never encountered.

If bounty hunters chase pirates into territorial coastal waters or on to the shore of another country, the problem would fall under the jurisdiction of that country. And any plundering activity that takes place in coastal waters is no longer considered piracy, according to College of William and Mary national security law professor Linda Malone.

Not to mention that there’s also no clear indication where and how the captured pirates should be prosecuted.

“You have to find a stable court system nearby to have them tried for these offenses, but that can be quite complicated,” Malone said. “The fact that the pirates are from Somalia doesn’t make them state actors. They are doing this for private gain.”

And how to determine exactly who is a pirate — and what constitutes pirate activity — could get fuzzy.

“What happens when a ship flying under Congress accidentally takes out an aid ship bound for Somalia?” Grotto said. “At what time does an act seem pirate-like enough to cross the line? Do we really want these snap judgments being made on the fly in waters thousands of miles away from Washington? This is not Johnny Depp we’re dealing with.”

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Add 3000 (Tax free) dollars per week (Direct depositied into US Bank) onto that Letter plus berthing, food and a group of others of like mind also each paid the same and issued the same.

Maybe 30 to crew a vessal with gaurds 24/7 No pirate will be coming over the rail. Call it a 3 week tour per group of 30. And they bring whatever they shoot best with and at least 200 rounds of ammuntion each as well as armor and trauma blow out bags.

That group of 30 divided into three teams of 10. These 10 pull 4 hour watches at a time while the other 20 rests. So we should be able to keep everyone rested each 24 hours and ready for the bulk to respond at a moment.

Mission goal is very simple. No pirate over the rail and lives. Never mind the boats and other stuff like raiding or whatever. If a pirate boat gets within 100 yards, I might be tempted to take a few shots with the slugs at people on it.

And perhaps take care of resupply runs of ammo or other needs for each security group.

Not too hard to have the Congressional Accounting Office Figure up the costs with this idea in mind.

When the vessal transits and clears the security zone the crew gets taken off the ship and sent to a secure and I mean secure area gaurded by Navy and Marines ashore or shipboard until we are called to man the next vessal.

It should not be too difficult to find sufficient groups of unemployed able bodied americans who can shoot to be gainfully assisting merchies for thier security.

When a group has completed thier 4 week tour, they go home and enjoy the extra income and a chance to go out on another rotation after two months home time.

Or they can continue to serve the letter for as long as they are able. If they become sick or problems come at home or whatever, replacements can be choppered over to the merchie from the secured holding area from those waiting service on board the next merchie approaching the security zone.

If the Pirates attack a ship and there is a fighting, anyone that is lost in this letter of service will need the US Government to make that person's family completely free of any debts outstanding plus 100,000 in life insurance unencumbered by taxes.

Oh wait... Mr Obama signed a giant spending bill recently didnt he? Oh well

Forget the money.

 

[solareclipse]

Because its a logistical nightmare thats why! These ships cross into many territories with many different laws concerning firearms.

The crews are from many different countries and you guessed it, subject to different local laws.

Quite a few have criminal pasts so, yep.. guns mix in there well.

And its an insurance liability no company and carrier will be willing to touch.

When you create your own shipping line, lease your own ships, insure them and hire your own crew and get the greenlight to enter ports (aka COUNTRIES) armed, then you can parade about "gun rights" and whatever. In the real world, it isn't happening.

 

[Dan Crocker]

We have been dealing with this for many months now and I would for one like to see the Merchants stay the hell away from Somalia and free our Navy and those of our Allies up so that they can go elsewhere and do something useful.

It's not a 'nice shortcut' as you said elsewhere in your post. It cuts almost a week off of transit getting to/from the Mediterranean as oppossed to sailing aaaaallllllll the way around Africa. Think about perishables and then the amount of fuel saved by going through Aden and then Suez. The money given to pirates is chump change compared to the extra cost in fuel, sailor pay, refrigeration, etc. that you would incure by banning ships from going through that area at all.

We did the same half a$$ halfstepping in Somalia as we did in Lebanon in the 1980's

It's less a case of half-assing something as it is having unclear mandates and a lack of objectives going in to both of those operations. During my last tour in Afghanistan, I got a blank look from the commanding general of CSTC-A when I asked him 'What is our end-goal here?'
You can dribble the ball all you want, but if there's no basket on the court, how do you win?

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Some of these ships are captured and held for weeks or months.

Sure the fuel, transit time etc is tacked on.

but THESE ships are loaded, sailing and moving instead of sitting next to the Somali coast captured and held by pirates.

I looked at the world map and find that these ships can just stay past India round Victoria near the Maldieves and just keep going past Africa and up the Atlantic.

These Pirates can go 400 miles to catch a ship, but they cannot go 1000 miles to catch a ship.

We convoy up the necessary ships that must transit the area both ways. It will take a time. And providing for lanes and security will provide our navy a good practice workout.

I still say that going round Africa is cheaper than having all these heartache against the pirates.

In trucking we sometimes have to take large detours consuming entire states to avoid certain areas depending on cargo. Or perhaps taking I-40 or I-80 to get to California instead of I-70 because the storms in I-70 in winter effectively closes that road. It adds a day or two to the time and several hundred miles to the fuel burn and charges.

But it's all sunshine through the Southwest at 70 mph all the way instead of sitting in 2 feet of snow breaking chains trying the direct route. Only the best drivers get to run 70, when they say it's open.

So it should be with our shipping. Those 12000 containers of boxes filled with goods and temp controlled keeps rolling on that ship.

I am not budging from my position at all.

The Med sea cargo can go through the Aden route if they want to but under protection of the Navy.

What really should happen is the ships to dock south of Kenya and all the boxes put aboard trains and shipped to the north coast of africa sort of a land bridge as they say the same way China Ships to europe using North American trains to reach it across the pacific then North America and then the atlantic.

But wait, Africa does have issues of thier own and cannot do much railroading the way we do in the USA with our stacktrains.

We should have create companies that will crew and man Q ships under letters from Congress. There is plenty of stuff to make it happen.

In the old days we didnt have the Suez Canal, almost lost it during the last big war. Everyone went around Africa using the fastest of ships for the highest priority cargos for that part of the world.

These ships were called the Clippers and made it in... 60 days or so give or take a few. The bulk cargo went by Windjammers which required 80 days or more depending on storms. That was in a different time.

Now we have shipping that is getting quite large, fast and almost useful to keep everything going.

The only other solution is to rebuild the USA's Industry here at home and make everything ourselves and take care only those raw materials we dont have here.

But that 100 dollar made in the USA toaster isnt gonna happen anytime soon. It has to be made in China, Captured by Somalis, aged a few months in salt water and then dumped onto a walmart shelf with a extra amount of money tacked on to pay for that.

 

[DRZinn]

Look, all of this gets run through very sophisticated cost/benefit analysis, you can bet your ass. Multiply the expected ransom demand by the probability they'll have to pay it, and that's the extra "cost" of taking the shorter route. If piracy worsens to the point that the longer route is a better option, they'll take it. It's really that simple.

That cost could be reduced significantly if guns were allowed on merchant vessels in foreign ports, though....

 

[Dan Crocker]

+1 to Dr. Zinn. If it was cheaper, they'd do it.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Paying ransom REWARDS bad behavior.

I say NO RANSOM AND DEATH TO THE PIRATES.

We shoot three dead for one American. Look what happens when the rest of the Pirates get angry and start highjacking ships left and right.

I think if I was a Boss of a Shipping Line, my ships will run the routes away from the pirates and costs be damned. And those ships will be armed. And the harbormaster dealt with accordingly.

Does that attitude make me.. the last of a dying breed of Americans with brass balls, big thinking and head strong attitudes?

What happens to us all when shipping is run by spineless wussies who have lost the backbone and the will to do anything correctly? Let's call 911.. the Navy, let them take care of it, next business problem please.

Im thinking either these bnosses dont care anymore or they are fixing to retire and let someone else deal with the pirate problem while ships are lost, people killed and cargo scattered in a wasteful manner.

God help us all if a real shooting war breaks out and merchies start sinking by the dozens every half day all over the world. Which might just happen in that area once the Iranians react to a possible Israeli strike against thier Nuke Plants.

 

[DRZinn]

Well, cost/benefit again. Since for various reasons, mostly governmental, they can't arm the crews (which I suspect we all agree they should), they'd have to hire armed escorts that don't follow them into territorial waters. That's a significant cost, for a rather small per-ship benefit.

 

[Dan Crocker]

I do wish they'd arm some of the ships. It seems like the easiest, most cost effective solution.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Ok Fine. Here is a wild idea.

Those decks are steel right?

Put a big magnet on the bottom of the appropriate deck ordiance. Have the Navy stick it to the deck in the merchies at one end of a pirate zone, and when the ship reaches the other side, another navy vessal unsticks the magnetic bases and transfer the weapons to the new merchie going the other way.

Presto. Fridge magnets. Now they are armed, now they are not. Easy stick.

Stick on, stick off, stick on... stick off.

Of course the magnets need some assistance to be strong enough to hold weapons when they are being fired.

There are cranes everywhere right? Easy lift. Maybe even light enough to chopper them back and forth.

 

[TAB]

small arms are of little use on the ocean. if you can shoot them, they can shoot back at you. Thier simple is not enough crew on board to have a fire fight.

You have to understand, not only are both ships moving, they are also moving in all 3 diamentions.

Small arms are not the answer... having them aboard is a feel good measure at best. The only way to really defend against pirates is to get them at range. Once your boarded, its very hard to remove them. These ships are not designed to reple boarders.

 

[Daizee]

if you can shoot them, they can shoot back at you.

they're already shooting at you. now what? still don't want to shoot back?

Thier simple is not enough crew on board to have a fire fight.

the large tankers have very small crews, but not ALL ships are like this.
Besides, how many pirates fit in a single skiff? The ones I saw up close had 3 or 4 guys (lemme check the vidcap...) ooh no, my bad, make that 5.

Here's your warning:


Next they start shooting a little.
Your ship goes 15knots, theirs goes 30.
Still don't want to shoot back?

We were advised to run out fire hoses to repel borders - very effective until they wave their rifles.
If they are going to get close you are going to need buckshot. Much easier to hit in the 3D environment. Several sailors, maybe the mates, with shotguns would be VERY effective within 50 yards. When they're shooting at you from 150yds, maybe you want to send some slugs their way to change their minds. But let me tell you, they shot their RPG at us even tho we were unarmed, so talking about escalation is foolishness, in my experience.

-Daizee

 

[peetee32]

what about

giant water cannons? im talking like 100x a fire hose. mount a couple of those on the sides, flip a switch, and hose down some pirates

 

[Daizee]

You'll need a couple big pumps. All large modern ships already have fire pumps. I wonder how much they can put out in a pinch?

We had 2000psi air all over the decks. I woulda made a turret-mounted soda-can launcher. No dice.

-Daizee

 

[thesolidus]

Drop barrels labeled "FOOD and PORN" overboard.
if they still keep chasing then shoot.

Here's where i'm lost. We capture, can't try them 'cause there's little to now law on the open seas. They can shoot because there's no way to prosecute... ummm... so shoot back. No one could prosecute you either right? Sounds like an opportunity for some...what do we call it these days... "Private Contractors" to work as escort security on board vessels.
Nothing new. People hiring men-at-arms, or the like since the first hippie said "I don't like spears! I just don't! Spears kill people! (Protect me!!!)"

 

[thesolidus]

Oh, and side note. When that oil tanker was hijacked a few months ago. I thought it was another terrorist attack about to happen. A ship with 2 million gallons of oil?! Was honestly (and happily) surprised that it wasn't scuttled or crashed into someone's port.
(Didn't we have a similar wake up a few years back with hijacked vessels full of fuel crashed into something? I thought we'd never forget... Know I didn't.)

 

[.455_Hunter]

Maybe some ships are getting the message...

This simple sentence from CNN.com could be a big deal...

The Pompei, a Belgian-registered ship believed to have a mostly Belgian and Croatian crew, was one of two vessels that came under attack near the Indian Ocean island nation of Seychelles on Saturday, the sources said.

The second ship escaped the attack after a brief exchange of gunfire with pirate vessels, the pirate source added.


What do you know, the ship that shot back didn't get captured!

Of course, I don't expect it to be played-up in the worldwide media, because, as we all should know, ONLY bad guys and police/military are supposed to have guns.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/18/pirates.foiled/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

 

[rogerjames]

My understanding is that "insurance" has been a major obstacle in arming these merchant ships. These merchant ships purchase insurance to protect their cargo. I have heard that arming these ships raises insurance premiums sharply. This seems counterintuitive, but I imagine the fear is that an improper shooting or accidental shooting would result in a "lawyer orgy".

 

[Dan Crocker]

Yeah, goddamned bloodsucking lawyers.

 

[thesolidus]

Thing is, if you hired private contractors That company traditionally handles insurance, liability etc. Thus the steep fee's.
Merchant Marines (Got a friend in service) traditionally sailed on ships to provide security. I was shocked to see they're rare. That said, it's a great business opening for Blackwater or the like.