Tense Florida Traffic Stop with Firearms

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I will not physically resist, nor will I fail to comply with orders, nor will I fail to truthfully answer almost any question put to me. I WANT the entire thing on dashcam, just in case it is the 1 in a million stupid cop. I simply refuse to consent to any search of my vehicle. If the officer wishes to ignore my refusal, pull an excuse to search out of his hat, or call for a drug sniffing dog, I REALLY DON'T CARE. Unless I'm bleeding badly, I've got all day t waste. Unless he decides to go berserk and physically injure me, I actually find the whole thing rather entertaining.

But as I have indicated before, No one has ever succeeded in making me even sound angry. In order to do that he's going to have to cross the line into lawsuit territory, and unless my life is actually in danger from said crazy guy with a uniform, I will STILL think it's all just entertainment.

Probably last post for me here, as I'm repeating myself.

I think the odds of my running into a cop I can't get along with are pretty darn slim.
 
Henschman, thank you for the long explanation. That clarifies things a bit.

The issue is still if that the procedure for this stop was reasonable and followed protocol. My question is, why would the officer not approach the vehicle and instead have the driver approach him?? Esp on a routine traffic violation where no visible crime/felony has been observed.
 
I have not read all of the posts as this is a lengthy thread, but wanted to give my perspective. Trust that you will bear with me.

1) having been on the scene and having to look at a dead officer laying in the street, I can tell you, it makes one "edgy.". In our area, it means that will be no more traffic stops for the rest of that shift for sure. Why? To avoid a tense officer shooting someone who does not deserve it.

2) when we stop someone in our rural county, we figure there is a gun in the car 100% of the time. Statistically, I think it runs at about 85%.

3) my experience is limited, but on the occasions where I have been involved with a traffic stop, upon receiving the info there is a gun in the car or that the driver is an armed permit holder, we have told them, no sudden moves and keep your hands in plain sight.

4) personally, I know that many officers are not big gun guys. They know their weapon, but might not be familiar with a gun with different operating controls such as a Sig, which is different than everything else. I do not want to handle someone else's gun. Who knows what the trigger is like, how mechanically sound it is, or any of another dozen or so safety concerns.

And, in our department, I think it would be safe to say that we are glad for civilians to have and own guns, we might need their help someday.

JMT&O
 
justice06rr, it appears this may be standard procedure for GPD, ACSO, and other officers in the region. I spoke to my lawyer casually about the incident and she was pulled just the other day for going 5 over in town, and was asked to exit the vehicle and put her hands on the hood. Then, even though she was in spandex shorts and a short tee from working out, they asked if she had any firearms or explosive devices on her...
 
Another exception to the warrant requirement is a search incident to arrest. If a cop has probable cause that someone committed a crime, he may arrest them for the purpose of taking them to a place of confinement, to allow criminal legal proceedings to begin (arrest is another exception to the warrant requirement). When someone is arrested, the cop may search the arrestee for dangerous weapons. The same rules apply as for a "pat down." Also, the cop can search the immediate area around where the arrestee is for the same purpose. If the arrestee is not presently securely confined (such as in the back of a cop car), the cop may also search the interior compartment of any vehicle the person recently occupied for the same purpose.

Short version and just to clarify, a search of a vehicle incident to arrest is no longer a legal search. Like you said though, an inventory search is permissible as long as it is part of sop and can be documented as routine procedure.

Concerning warrantless searches, you didn't mention (although in a way you did) the plain smell exception which is without a doubt my favorite one. :)
 
1. Your recorder makes officers laugh. They are recording you with video and audio.
There have been more than a few who stopped laughing in court.

The difference between their recorder and mine is they can't lawfully turn mine off. We don't know half of what Officer Daniel Harless did in Canton because he was caught at least once turning off his dashcam.

I'm hard pressed to name a high profile misconduct case (maybe other than the Danziger Bridge murders) that DIDN'T involve video or audio. If cops weren't worried about being recorded without being able to stop it, they wouldn't work so hard to intimidate citizens who record them during stops, up to and including separate criminal acts to stop them.
 
There have been more than a few who stopped laughing in court.

The difference between their recorder and mine is they can't lawfully turn mine off. We don't know half of what Officer Daniel Harless did in Canton because he was caught at least once turning off his dashcam.

I'm hard pressed to name a high profile misconduct case (maybe other than the Danziger Bridge murders) that DIDN'T involve video or audio. If cops weren't worried about being recorded without being able to stop it, they wouldn't work so hard to intimidate citizens who record them during stops, up to and including separate criminal acts to stop them.

All you are doing is creating evidence that can be used against you. If a video shows gaps where it is being cut on and off then that speaks volumes but the acts of a few bad cops doesn't mean the average citizen is so paranoid that they need to record every interaction. Once again your recorder means nothing to the average officer and is laughable. It doesn't intimidate them (your obvious intent) nor does it do anything other than show them your obvious hostile state of mind and assure that an enforcement action will be taken against you. It really is simple. Officers have a lot of discretion. Notice the OP didn't get a ticket for speeding. If someone is coming off as confrontational (such as someone with their little recorder might be) then they are obviously not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. This is simply the type of behaviour I expect from someone with something to hide. The average police officer is simply trying to serve the public and do a very difficult job. People who haven't done anything wrong usually don't act like they have done anything wrong. Finally I've seen more than one case where not only did the officer but the audience, the lawyers, and the judge laugh at a defendant in open court that had a "recording" that they thought proved wrongdoing and in the end was just more proof of guilt that the defendant introduced against himself. If you really live in an area where every cop is out to get you and dirty then my apologies but in all honestly you simply sound a little paranoid at this point.

Edit: And if you did run into a dirty cop then what exactly makes you think he won't turn off, seize, and destroy your recorder? The fact that you even get stopped speaks volumes. If you are being unlawfully stopped then get an attorney.
 
All you are doing is creating evidence that can be used against you
Why is it not the least bit surprising that a cop wants you to make his job easier? So far, the Man with no name has seemingly stated that refusing searches is bad protocall, and that recording an officer only will incriminate oneself. I, respectfully submit that this "officer" is simply trying to make his job (arresting people) easier. If you give them evidence....by allowing a search...you've made his job easier. If you don't record the encounter....or allow the only a/v recording to be the officer's....you've again made his job easier, while reducing the amount of evidence you can submit to the contrary. WE all like our jobs to be easier, MWNN, but actually giving people advice that quite possibly potentially incriminates them, I feel as if you have lapsed ethically. What you would prefer a suspect to do during a traffic stop, and what would be MOST PRUDENT for them to do are seemingly two different things. In an era where police corruption isn't exactly unheard of, hedging one's bets isn't a bad idea. You can mock the ideas of recordings and search refusals, but in the end, it just seems as though you'd rather the suspect just give up his rights rather than utilize them to his or her best benefit. Like I said, we all want our jobs to be a bit smoother or easier, but the advice you give here is very much opinion, and shouldn't be taken as cold hard facts by anyone.

Many cops give advice here, but most seem to come at it from a different angle. Your take seems to be "compliance and cooperation above all, including common sense" and I find that disturbing. Talking about laughing at suspects, talking about how there are "other ways" to seearch a vehicle....well, it just all seems a little biased


This isn't a personal attack, MWNN...its just that people give answers based on their jobs, and the people here would be better served by taking advice from soemone along the lines of a defense attorney....someone whose job it is to keep people OUT of jail....than they would be served by taking advice from an officer of the law, someone whose employment partially consists of putting people IN jail. From your POV, maybe a refusal to search or recording a stop is stupid, petty, insulting, what have you.....but if that recording captured illegal behavior on the part of the officer, then I say its served its purpose. If someone is trying to convict me of a crime, I'm going to do all in my power to legally prevent that from happening. My recording may be laughed at...or it may capture the one moment that proves my innocence. If it is going to save me fines, jailtime, a criminal record, etc....I'll take the risk of being laughed at. Your job is simply to collect evidence that points to my having committed a crime. If you have that, I'll be convicted. If you don't have that...and I don't GIVE it to you, there's a good chance I'll walk. If you are so sure you can search my vehicle without my permission, by all means do so. However, advocating I willingly give up legal protections that could potentially exonerate me at a later time is asinine and hardly good advice from anyone aside from you and the prosecutor. You can threaten to laugh at me, or to call a K9 unit...whatever. Being laughed at, or having a dog called to the scene doesn't hurt my feelings....but may potentially offer me some protections. When defense attorneys tell me to comply with searches and to willingly comply with any and all officer requests, I may start to believe I'm being steered in the right direction. However, you just want the alleged suspects to do your job for you and hand you any evidence, real or imagined, over to you rather than you having to legally discover it through your own techniques and abilities
 
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All you are doing is creating evidence that can be used against you.
Then the cop is doing EXACTLY the same thing with his dashcam... perhaps the reason why Officer Harless of the Canton PD had a habit of switching his off. Perhaps too, that's why those EIGHT dashcams all "malfunctioned" simultaneously in the SAME stop in Maryland.

The ONLY way a recording can "create evidence" that can be used against me is if I do (or don't do) something on it that's evidence of a crime. That's where the following comes in:

  1. I notify that I have an Ohio CHL and that I'm carrying a firearm, but ONLY if I'm carrying, and ONLY where required by law.
  2. If the cop does ANYTHING outside of normal traffic stop procedure, "Am I free to leave?"
  3. If "yes", I leave. If "no", "I have nothing further to say without benefit of counsel." Then SHUT UP.
  4. If asked for CONSENT to a search, the answer is ALWAYS "I DO NOT CONSENT."
As far as the cop "laughing" at my recorder, the odds are he's not going to KNOW, and I have ABSOLUTELY no legal duty to tell him.

I don't care what the supposedly "average" cop does. You-Tube is jammed with videos of NOT "average" cops doing things that they shouldn't. I must again throw out the name Harless. You know, the guy who likes to play with his dashcam? He's FAR from the only one. NOT "average" cops do some VERY "interesting" things when they forget the current ubiquity of recording devices. Examples range from Harless to the murder of Michael Pleasance by Alvin Weems... while literally standing under a battery of transit authority video cameras.

To put it politely, your "advice" is "problematic". Put more bluntly, it seems self-serving and calculated to garner an advantage over the naive and unwary.
 
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Treating you like a slave and reminding you that you have no rights only the illusion of such rights. Disregarded your constitutional rights under the guise of safety. This is why cops are called pigs. If they just did their job with out treating everyone like a criminals we'd all get along great. Meanwhile who really committed the greater crime? Tony for speeding, or the cop for violating his rights? This is the future of America. It seems like we are all being treated like thugs until proven innocent.
 
I feel that if Florida is really a state where people have no duty to disclose then Florida has some downright stupid laws that endanger leo's for no good reason. Duty or not you did the right thing. For YOUR safety and the officer's you should always disclose IMO.
I don't get this. Should you disclose to everyone you speak with during your day for everyone's safety? That might be considered a threat and/or brandishing. And it certainly defeats the purpose of the first letter in CC.

Arizona must have some downright stupid laws, too. The one time I've been pulled over for speeding in AZ, I did not initially disclose. But the officer asked me for my registration, which was in the glove box with my gun. So I told him at that point that I had a CCW and there was a gun in the glovebox where I kept my registration. He didn't miss a beat. He said that was fine, and that I didn't even need a CCW, anymore.

His demeanor did not change. He didn't command me to keep my hands on the wheel nor to avoid making any sudden movements. He didn't put his hand on his gun or call for backup. He didn't ask me if I had any other weapons in the vehicle. As far as I could tell, he didn't even try to get a peek in my glovebox when I opened it and retrieved my registration. He asked me how I liked my truck and other small talk. Then he handed me a speeding ticket and explained how I could pay the fine.

And should this be surprising? Before approaching the vehicle, he surely ran my plates. He saw my driver's license. He knew I had no warrants or criminal history. He didn't see any dead bodies or drugs in my car. I was relaxed and cooperative. Why would he need to know if I was legally armed or not, let alone disarm me, for his own safety, anymore than my barber would?
 
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More than once I've had someone call their attorney roadside. Not once did they tell them to do anything other than cooperate with the officer and then call them in the morning. If you think it's the job of a defense attorney to keep you out of jail then you really are naive about how things work in court. It's much more complicated than that although I'll be interested in seeing if any defense attorney here actually admits that. :)

Sorry but I can't help but feel what is in my best interest is also in the best interest of the public at large. In real life I've never run into anyone that was paranoid enough to record his encounter with me that didn't end up being guilty of worse than I had initially suspected. That is why I find it amusing. The honest people I run into just don't strike me as that paranoid. Frankly I've always felt that if a cop wanted to search even my own car then what is the big deal as I have nothing to hide. I guess others feel different and it's a shame that some are so distrustful of the police in general and their government at large.
 
I don't get this. Should you disclose to everyone you speak with during your day for everyone's safety? That might be considered a threat and/or brandishing. And it certainly defeats the purpose of the first letter in CC.

Arizona must have some downright stupid laws, too. The one time I've been pulled over for speeding in AZ, I did not initially disclose. But the officer asked me for my registration, which was in the glove box with my gun. So I told him at that point that I had a CCW and there was a gun in the glovebox where I kept my registration. He mentioned that I didn't even need a CCW, anymore, and to go ahead and get my registration.

His demeanor did not change. He didn't command me to keep my hands on the wheel nor to avoid making any sudden movements. He didn't put his hand on his gun or call for backup. As far as I could tell, he didn't even try to get a peek in my glovebox when I opened it and retrieved my registration. He asked me how I liked my truck and other small talk, then wrote me a speeding ticket. That was all.

And should this be surprising? Before approaching the vehicle, he surely ran my plates. He saw my driver's license. He knew I had no warrants or criminal history. He didn't see any dead bodies or drugs in my car. Why would he need to disarm me for his own safety?

In NC CCW holders have a duty to disclose to an officer. Not to everyone they meet during the course of their day. It's a shame that officer didn't hold your firearm while he checked the status of your permit and at the same time check it to make sure it wasn't stolen. Before you get up in arms and offended, more than one person has bought a gun in a private transaction not knowing they were purchasing a stolen gun. It doesn't mean you will automatically get charged. It means that the gun will get seized and you'll have a talk about where it came from and perhaps lead to other stolen guns or merchandise being recovered. I guess someone in this "pro rights" thread will be against that also though. :banghead:
 
do share with us some of those examples
Harless
Weems
Abbate
Mehserle
The cops who beat the student in Pittsburgh then lied about him "attacking" police horses
The cops in Maryland with the eight simultaneous dashcam "malfunctions"
The Akron cop who falsely arrested a woman for videoing him
The California cops who accused Samoan party goers of throwing rocks and bottles at them, NONE of which was in evidence in video of the incident

YouTube is replete with "UN-average cops" who discounted the dangers of acting out on video.

The only reason not to record police interactions and the only reason why a cop wouldn't want to be recorded is to enable police engaging in misconduct to hide behind their presumption of veracity.
 
it appears this may be standard procedure for GPD, ACSO, and other officers in the region.

As I posted before, I was stopped by an ASO deputy a few months ago and I didn't experience any of this. I am also a criminal defense attorney (in North Central Florida) and my experience is that when LEO's are acting like this, they have profiled you as a possible suspect for something.
 
No Name. Not sure why ur mentioning NC. To be clear, this happened in AZ, where I was and currently am residing.

I'm confused why you think it is a shame that he didn't take my gun and run the serial number?

Your microwave oven might be stolen too. This doesnt mean the cops should call in the serial number unless they have reason to suspect you stole it.

As for the status of my permit, again, this is AZ. Not NC. In AZ, you do not need a permit to CC a gun or to keep one in a car. The status of my permit did not matter, and he did not even ask to look at it.
 
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In an effort to bring this matter back on to the topic of removal of a firearm for officer protection and to further the debate.

I would like opinions on whether the passing of :-

HB-45 Penalties for Violating Firearms Preemption Law by Rep. Matt Gaetz & Sen. Joe Negron to stop local governments and government officials from enacting gun control ordinances in violating of Florida law was signed into law June 1, 2011 and will take effect October 1, 2011. The delay in the effective date is to allow agencies and local governments to REPEAL any and all regulations, policies, and ordinances that violate the firearms preemption law. Beginning Oct. 1, 2011, citizens and organizations may begin bringing actions against agencies and governments for violations.

The Florida preemption statue has made all laws governing the Possession, carrying and ownership:-

§790.33 Florida Statutes - Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted

"Except as expressly provided by general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances are hereby declared null and void."

I am interested whether the above and the penalties imposed will have an effect on the practice of taking a weapon from a concealed weapons permit holder. It appears to have been overlooked and dismissed by previous posters, but I am wondering whether the implementation of the penalties and the enforcement of the preemption issue will prove to be the catalyst for change.

Again the Florida Statue 790 states clearly that permit holders are not under a duty to inform, it also is silent on the issue of surrendering the firearm or weapon to an officer. Whilst I agree that it may fall under other laws, it is clear that the legislative branch of Florida Government specifically declined to give an officer the power to disarm a permit holder under the 790 statue, which they state has full preemption and has the final say on ownership, possession and transportation.
 
In an effort to bring this matter back on to the topic of removal of a firearm for officer protection and to further the debate.

I would like opinions on whether the passing of :-



The Florida preemption statue has made all laws governing the Possession, carrying and ownership:-



I am interested whether the above and the penalties imposed will have an effect on the practice of taking a weapon from a concealed weapons permit holder. It appears to have been overlooked and dismissed by previous posters, but I am wondering whether the implementation of the penalties and the enforcement of the preemption issue will prove to be the catalyst for change.

Again the Florida Statue 790 states clearly that permit holders are not under a duty to inform, it also is silent on the issue of surrendering the firearm or weapon to an officer. Whilst I agree that it may fall under other laws, it is clear that the legislative branch of Florida Government specifically declined to give an officer the power to disarm a permit holder under the 790 statue, which they state has full preemption and has the final say on ownership, possession and transportation.
:banghead:

Again the Florida Statue 790 states clearly that permit holders are not under a duty to inform
No, it is silent on that issue.

I am interested whether the above and the penalties imposed will have an effect on the practice of taking a weapon from a concealed weapons permit holder.
No, none at all.

Whilst I agree that it may fall under other laws, it is clear that the legislative branch of Florida Government specifically declined to give an officer the power to disarm a permit holder under the 790 statue
There was no such intent in 790, there was no need or desire to do so as it is already addressed in other statutes and 4th Amendment jurisprudence.
 
I would appreciate your perspectives on the situation, my behavior, the officers behavior, and any insight into the legality of firearms during traffic stops in Florida.

This is my spin which the O.P. is sure to find offensive.

1)Was this felony protocol?

This was not a felony car stop in my part of the world. What most of the computer junkies don't know is it is a different world after dark. A different sub-species of humans come out that have little regard for the law and earn rank within their organization for killing a cop. Most D.U.I.'s happen after dark.

Most computer junkies do not know that the most dangerous activity for a LEO is a car stop, more so at night when he can not see in the other vehicle.

All most people most people know is the silly police stuff they see on TV and the Movies. Rather than worrying about if someone is laying down in the back seat or if the passenger is waiting to shoot him when he approached the vehicle he removed much of the threat by having the driver walk back to him.

The officer also greatly reduced the chance for a high-speed chase in chase the driver paniced and decided to flee (common with D.U.I.'s). This reduced the danger to the O.P.s wife, child and other occupants on the road.

This tactic clearly upset your plans on how you planned on dealing with the situation.

Another tactic I see used in my area is the LEO approaces the vehicle from the passenger side and conducts the interview through the passenger side.


2) I felt I made a mistake by disclosing information about passengers and firearms.

Well next time don't or you can avoid future confrontations altogether by obeying the law. You have the freedom of choice.

3)I find it highly irregular that they would then go on to disarm the passenger on a routine speeding stop. My wife felt threatened by the twitchy officer and when he pursued the issue on the basis of officer safety, after she protested and stated he would need a warrant, she decided to cooperate.

First of all traffic stops are NOT routine. I suggest you use your computer skills to research the FBI's Officer Killed Summaries.

And in my state your wife is wrong about the officer needing a warrant. A semister in studying criminal law would be educational for both of you.

4)Although in Florida had I resisted disarmament or had my wife resisted disarmament, legally I feel we would have been justified. However, the officers threatened to pull their weapons on me and did not seem to know much about the law. Furthermore, legal battles happen after the fact... with an infant in the car we had no interest in anything other than getting back on the road, rather than taking a stand for the 4th amendment with two twitchy officers.

If your version of the 4th Amendment is so important when are you going to take a stand?

5)The officers threatened to pull their weapons on me 3 times, what gives? They seemed really nervous.

Subjective. I know this fat ole boy would be sweating in hot, humid Florida.

]6)Although I'm glad I didn't get a ticket, I do feel like I have been violated. I do not appreciate being disarmed for no reason on a traffic stop, and again felt they were out of line disarming a passenger with a baby.

You're lucky. In my agency you would have got the daily double; a $244.00 ticket and being pissed off about being disarmed.

Why don't you ask to ride along with some officers and educate yourself by taking some criminal justice classes? Oh and scraping some broken bodies off the payment and telling their families in the emergency room their loved one died would also be educational.
 
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Why don't you ask to ride along with some officers
As irrelevant as suggesting that a cop move into a housing project or other high crime area to see how "hard" it is not to break the law.

The law is the law, for the cop AND the citizen.

I have a duty to obey the law, whether I live at 63rd and Blackstone or across the street from Rahm Emmanuel.

The cop has a duty to obey the law, no matter how "hard" that might be. This isn't Egypt. We don't draft cops. He can leave any time he wants.

If the citizen doesn't want speeding tickets, he shouldn't speed.

If the cop doesn't want to end up on YouTube, he shouldn't act out his rage issues where he might end up on video (hint: that's ANYWHERE these days).
 
Tony_the_tiger said:
Henschman, thank you for the long explanation. That clarifies things a bit.

The issue is still if that the procedure for this stop was reasonable and followed protocol. My question is, why would the officer not approach the vehicle and instead have the driver approach him?? Esp on a routine traffic violation where no visible crime/felony has been observed.

As for having you get out instead of him coming up to you, that is all up to the cop. Once he has reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you broke a traffic law and he initiates a stop, he has control over you and your car for the purpose of carrying out an investigation of the incident and/or issuing a citation. For this, he has to make contact with you. He has some latitude in how he may do that, and having you step out and come to him is one way of accomplishing it. It is certainly within the legal scope of a traffic stop. Telling you to look at him isn't, though. You are under no legal duty to do that, and could certainly refuse. Whether it's worth it to make a stand over that sort of issue is up to you.

The biggest legal issue is with the disarmament. Really, the only legal justification for disarmament would be if there was reasonable suspicion that you were armed and dangerous... none of the other exceptions to the warrant requirement fit. Obviously the cop knew you were armed, because you told him so. As for the dangerous part, he would need to have specific and articulable facts that would lead him to believe you were dangerous. Speeding 15 over would not constitute reasonable suspicion of you being dangerous. However, if your car's description matched the description of something a violent criminal was reported to be driving, or something like that, then the "dangerous" element could be met. Reasonable suspicion is a pretty low standard. The fact that the cop told you to get out and had you do all that stuff about sitting down and looking at him, and asked you straight away whether you were armed, could be an indication that he somehow had the idea that you might be more dangerous than the average speeder. We don't know what the officer knew, so we as Monday morning QB's can't definitively tell whether he had a reasonable suspicion that you were dangerous, based on the facts you gave us. However, if the element was met and the seizure was legal, it would also be legal for him to check the serial number. The law on that is that serial numbers may be checked if they may be viewed from a place where the officer has legal justification to be. If he has legal justification to seize the gun, he would certainly legally be in a position where he can read the s/n, unless it is covered up by grips or something, as someone else mentioned.

As to whether he really did have reasonable suspicion of you being dangerous, you might be able to get some answers by calling in to the department and complaining about the seizure of you and your wife's guns. You probably wouldn't get any answers on the legal issue to your satisfaction, but it would be the first step in the process. If things are not resolved to your satisfaction that way, the next step would be to sue the cop and his department in a federal 1983 suit for a violation of your civil rights. That would force the cop to give some sort of legal justification for the seizure of your gun.

The thing is, a lawyer would charge you several thousand dollars to prosecute such a suit, which you wouldn't be able to recoup if you lose the suit, which means it hardly ever happens over such a minor incident. It would be pretty expensive just for a fishing expedition to see whether he really had reasonable suspicion you were dangerous. That is why just about the only way this constitutional issue ever gets into court is when somebody ends up getting charged with a crime over the seizure.

Hope this helps!
 
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do share with us some of those examples
Harless
Weems
Abbate
Mehserle
The cops who beat the student in Pittsburgh then lied about him "attacking" police horses
The cops in Maryland with the eight simultaneous dashcam "malfunctions"
The Akron cop who falsely arrested a woman for videoing him
The California cops who accused Samoan party goers of throwing rocks and bottles at them, NONE of which was in evidence in video of the incident

YouTube is replete with "UN-average cops" who discounted the dangers of acting out on video.

The only reason not to record police interactions and the only reason why a cop wouldn't want to be recorded is to enable police engaging in misconduct to hide behind their presumption of veracity.


so as i suspected your own personal examples comes to.... zero? i am amazed how fortunate for all those bad cops that they've never picked you
 
so as i suspected your own personal examples comes to.... zero? i am amazed how fortunate for all those bad cops that they've never picked you
That's rather an odd assertion, that nothing really happens unless it happens to ME.

If I made it, people would call me a megalomaniac.

That would mean that:

The Black Death
WWI
WWII
The Holocaust

to name just a few, never happened, because they didn't happen to ME.

Of course what you're REALLY saying is, "Those are all documented examples of police misconduct depicted in recordings. I can't really refute any of it, so I'll throw out a nonsequitor as a diversion."

As I've said previously, your personal record of past misbehavior neither justifies police misconduct, nor does it impose upon anyone else a duty to passively accept such misconduct.

It seems that nobody can put the police in a worse light than their most ardent defenders...
 
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