Texas Resident Buying a Gun in KS

[Sovblocgunfan]

Howdy yall.

I am based in Texas, but will likely be a temporary resident in Kansas for an 18 month period (or thereabouts).

I’m a legal gunbuyer here in TX with all rights and privileges reserved, and am an LTC holder. Kansas has similar, if not same, environment for gun purchases as TX does, if I’m not mistaken.

I was thinking about buying a gun in Kansas while I am there. This question is NOT about CC reciprocity. It is about any special hoops I would need to jump through because I’m a temporary resident. Can anyone think of any weird waiting periods or any oddball FFL transfers that I would need to do on the purchase side of things? Or is it the same, my temporary status notwithstanding?

 

[denton]

As I understand it, you can have multiple legal residences. If you are in Kansas for 18 months, you are a resident in Kansas. You may also still be a resident of Texas if you maintain a residence there. There is no waiting period to become a resident.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Usually not an issue for long-guns. I have bought several while out-of-state and taken possession immediately. Handguns have been shipped backed to local area FFL.

 

[N555]

Most states will sell you a long gun if you are visiting and have a laundry list of states they won't sell to, the usual suspects like the entire left coast and some of the gun grabber states like NJ, NJ, MD, DE, CT, RH, then a few other midwest randos like IL, MI.
It changes all the time. Being from Texas shouldn't exclude you from a long gun purchase unless KS has made a "no non-residents sales law".
I don't think you can buy a handgun as a non resident anywhere anymore.
New Mexico would sell me a shot gun when I was stationed there when I was in the air force. So don't go to new Mexico.

 

[AlexanderA]

I was thinking about buying a gun in Kansas while I am there.

Handgun or long gun? If a long gun, you can buy from an FFL anywhere in the country, as long as the purchase is legal in both your state of residence and the state where the purchase takes place.

For a handgun, you can buy only in your state of residence. This is where the concept of "residence" becomes important. You can be a part-year resident of more than one state (say, if you have a home in each of two states). But, dealers usually look at your driver's license as proof of residency. It's no longer possible to have a valid driver's license from more than one state. Maybe you can prove residency by other means, such as utility bills. BTW, Kansas has a state income tax, while Texas doesn't. Filing taxes might be a way of proving residency.

 

[CapnMac]

but will likely be a temporary resident in Kansas for an 18 month period (or thereabouts).

So, you "intend to reside in Kansas"?
18 USC 922 typically uses the definition of "residency" that is based on "intent."
Now, a KS FFL might want to see KS ID.
Which might recommend getting a KS ID of some sort.
Maybe.
Perhaps.
YMMV.

 

[denton]

I certainly don't know the situation in Kansas, but here in Utah you can get a free state issued photo ID card. That might be helpful.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Hmmm, things to think on.

was not aware on the distinction between long guns and handguns. That’s unfortunate, bc I wanted to make a trip to the big Wanenmacher show in Tulsa as well.

What interests me about this is we can buy handguns from anywhere we want in the US and ship them to an FFL in our home state from the comfort of our living room. It somehow makes a difference, though, if I want to buy a handgun legally in-person, thru an FFL in Kansas. I’m aware of how arcane our gun laws are, but that just doesn’t make sense to me

that’s okay. I can be a long gun buyer just the same.

yes, i would maintain dual residences-my home in TX and an apartment for the 18 months I’m there. I like the free photo ID card idea. I may look into that.

 

[RickD427]

If the firearm you're seeking to purchase is a rifle or shotgun, you can purchase it in Kansas while being a Texas resident, so long as the sale complies with the state laws of both Texas and Kansas. Please refer to 18USC922(b)(3).

If the weapon is handgun (or anything other than a rifle or shotgun), then you must be a resident of the state where the purchase occurs. There is no such thing as a "Temporary Resident" under the federal law. Additionally, with the narrow exception of an active duty military member, stationed in one state, living in another, and commuting daily to duty (refer to the BATF FFL Newsletter of August 2004), there is no such thing as a "Dual Resident" under the federal law.

In the case that you describe, the federal law is most likely going to consider you as a resident of Kansas for the 18 months that you are there. Please note that the federal law defines "State of Residence" for the application of firearms laws differently than it is defined for other purposes. It's irrelevant who issued your ID documents, if you own property, pay out-of-state tuition, etc. The federal law allows folks to change their "State of Residency" as quickly as they can cross state lines. Please refer to 27CFR478.11 and the four examples of "Residency" contained in that regulation.

 

[AlexanderA]

That’s unfortunate, bc I wanted to make a trip to the big Wanenmacher show in Tulsa as well.

If you are interested in purchasing guns at least 50 years old at an out-of-state gun show, it might be worth getting an FFL Collector's license. This is cheap and easy to get, and allows you to buy any guns, from any state, and from dealers or private individuals, as long as they are "curios and relics" (basically over 50 years old).

It's irrelevant who issued your ID documents, if you own property, pay out-of-state tuition, etc. The federal law allows folks to change their "State of Residency" as quickly as they can cross state lines.

Theoretically that is true, but as a practical matter it boils down to convincing an FFL dealer that you are in fact a resident. That's where the aforementioned documents are indispensable.

 

[denton]

Ummmm..... the following from David Hardy, prominent 2A attorney, may be helpful on the residency issue.

Who is a nonresident?
FOPA does not attempt to define residency. The Gun Control Act has a similar omission, except for military personnel on active duty.[266] The legislative history indicates that (1) a person's residence is not necessarily where he votes or pays taxes--that is, it is not necessarily his legal domicile;[267] (2) a person is a resident of the locale where he is "permanently or for substantial periods of time physically located;"[268] and (3) a person may have dual residency, or rotate between different places of residence on a regular basis.[269](p.635)

https://guncite.com/journals/hardfopa.html

As I understand it, you can have only one domicile but as many residences/residencies as you can afford.

 

[Archie]

SBGF, if all else fails, and this is not a situation of "I need it NOW" one can always have it shipped to an FFL holder near your stomping grounds in Texas. I suggest arranging with a local FFL before you leave. Yes, you'll have to pay for shipping.
Of course, if the local Kansas shop says "Oh yeah, that is okay" you won't have to ship it anywhere, just lug it around and finally home.

I've done this a couple places outside my dwelling state, but then I look for 'collection' guns so waiting a bit to lay hands on the prize is not a big deal. I've been waiting my whole life for some of those doodads.

 

[RickD427]

The author of the excerpt that you posted is quite correct that a person can "rotate between different places of residence", but they can't be a "Dual Resident" (except for the special case identified by the BATF). The author of the excerpt wrote correctly, even if misleadingly, by using a common legal tactic of first saying what you want the reader to believe (There can be a "Dual Resident"), then using the conjunctive "or", followed by what the law actually says (one can quickly change residency). You're led to believe that both are correct when technically, only one need be correct to make the whole statement correct. They actually teach law students how to do this (stuff) in their "Trial Advocacy" classes.

Let's look at the actual definition of "State of Residence" (Quoted from 27CFR478.11):

"State of Residence - The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2.
A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3.
A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.
Example 4.
A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X."
​

First, note carefully the requirement that a person be "present in a state" in order to be a resident of that state. That condition alone makes "Dual Residency" quite impossible (unless one is standing on the stateline with a foot in each state). But then when you look at the examples, and particularly Example 2, it's pretty clear that a person who maintains homes in two states can change their residency as quickly as they can move between their two homes. A lot of folks liken this to being a "Dual Resident" of both states. But when you examine the wording, it's clear that they are not. They are only a singular resident of the state they're currently in.

Example 4 is highly relevant to the OP's situation. I would have to think that application of this example would hold him to be a resident of Kansas for the 18 months he plans to be there.

 

[denton]

The author of the excerpt that you posted is quite correct that a person can "rotate between different places of residence", but they can't be a "Dual Resident" (except for the special case identified by the BATF). The author of the excerpt wrote correctly, even if misleadingly, by using a common legal tactic of first saying what you want the reader to believe (There can be a "Dual Resident"), then using the conjunctive "or", followed by what the law actually says (one can quickly change residency). You're led to believe that both are correct when technically, only one need be correct to make the whole statement correct. They actually teach law students how to do this (stuff) in their "Trial Advocacy" classes.

Let's look at the actual definition of "State of Residence" (Quoted from 27CFR478.11):

"State of Residence - The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2.
A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3.
A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.
Example 4.
A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X."
​

First, note carefully the requirement that a person be "present in a state" in order to be a resident of that state. That condition alone makes "Dual Residency" quite impossible (unless one is standing on the stateline with a foot in each state). But then when you look at the examples, and particularly Example 2, it's pretty clear that a person who maintains homes in two states can change their residency as quickly as they can move between their two homes. A lot of folks liken this to being a "Dual Resident" of both states. But when you examine the wording, it's clear that they are not. They are only a singular resident of the state they're currently in.

Example 4 is highly relevant to the OP's situation. I would have to think that application of this example would hold him to be a resident of Kansas for the 18 months he plans to be there.

I've read the post, but don't think it contradicts Hardy, at least in any practical way. For a case in point:

My domicile is in Utah. I own a home here, pay property taxes here, and by all definitions that I know, am a resident.

For about six months, I was on a consulting job in Richmond VA. I lived in Richmond Monday noon until Friday noon, and lived in Utah Friday evening to Monday morning. (Hated the commute!!)

So I think that under your post, and under FOPA, I was present for substantial periods of time in both places, had a home there, was there regularly, and had intent to return to each. When I was present in VA, I think that as far as federal law is concerned, I could have purchased a handgun from a dealer. When in Utah, I could purchase a handgun from a dealer here. I'm not sensing any disagreement on that point.

So I think there is a distinction in that when in Utah, I was a Utah resident, and when in VA I was a VA resident, but without any practical difference, i.e. to walk into a gun store in either state, I have to be physically present and am therefore a resident.

 

[hso]

if I want to buy a handgun legally in-person, thru an FFL in Kansas

They just ship a handgun to your FFL in Tx.

 

[RickD427]

I've read the post, but don't think it contradicts Hardy, at least in any practical way. For a case in point:

My domicile is in Utah. I own a home here, pay property taxes here, and by all definitions that I know, am a resident.

For about six months, I was on a consulting job in Richmond VA. I lived in Richmond Monday noon until Friday noon, and lived in Utah Friday evening to Monday morning. (Hated the commute!!)

So I think that under your post, and under FOPA, I was present for substantial periods of time in both places, had a home there, was there regularly, and had intent to return to each. When I was present in VA, I think that as far as federal law is concerned, I could have purchased a handgun from a dealer. When in Utah, I could purchase a handgun from a dealer here. I'm not sensing any disagreement on that point.

So I think there is a distinction in that when in Utah, I was a Utah resident, and when in VA I was a VA resident, but without any practical difference, i.e. to walk into a gun store in either state, I have to be physically present and am therefore a resident.

I think that you're right on point here, and that you have a good understanding of the federal definition of "State of Resident" from 27CFR478.11.

The key is that you maintained residences in both Virginia and Utah. The distinction made in my posting is that you were not a "Dual Resident" of both Virginia and Utah. When you are in Virginia, you are a Virginia resident (and not a Utah resident) and when you're in Utah, you're a Utah resident (and not a Virginia resident). It's largely a semantic distinction. You'd have a hard time walking into a Utah store to purchase a firearm while you're in Virginia, but at the same time, there's a "Snowball Effect" when folks start to use terminology in inexact ways and that can get folks into trouble.

 

[denton]

I think we are in violent agreement. Good discussion. Thank you.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

SBGF, if all else fails, and this is not a situation of "I need it NOW" one can always have it shipped to an FFL holder near your stomping grounds in Texas. I suggest arranging with a local FFL before you leave. Yes, you'll have to pay for shipping.
Of course, if the local Kansas shop says "Oh yeah, that is okay" you won't have to ship it anywhere, just lug it around and finally home.

I've done this a couple places outside my dwelling state, but then I look for 'collection' guns so waiting a bit to lay hands on the prize is not a big deal. I've been waiting my whole life for some of those doodads.

this is not a situation of “need it now” by any means. This is for the casual gun shop visits where i see something i want.

the discussion about residency has been very interesting to read.

 

[entropy]

FFL's are supposed to be sure the address on your driver's license is correct. as previously mentioned one cannot legally hold DL's from more than one state. Since changing them has now become more of a hassle because of the new license requirements, you might want to just consider keeping you residency in TX, and any pistols you want to buy in KS, just send to a TX FFL. You could always drive down and get them if you can't wait the remaining time in KS.

 

[jag22]

Forget about the guns, if you are going to live there for 18 months wouldn’t you need to get a Kansas DL? I would certainly check that out first. If you do then your firearm question is moot. In Texas I think you have to get a new DL within 30 days if you just move within the state. I’m guessing the rule may be similar coming from out of stare.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Forget about the guns, if you are going to live there for 18 months wouldn’t you need to get a Kansas DL? I would certainly check that out first. If you do then your firearm question is moot. In Texas I think you have to get a new DL within 30 days if you just move within the state. I’m guessing the rule may be similar coming from out of stare.

You may be right. One of things i need to check before i mobilize.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Forget about the guns, if you are going to live there for 18 months wouldn’t you need to get a Kansas DL? I would certainly check that out first. If you do then your firearm question is moot. In Texas I think you have to get a new DL within 30 days if you just move within the state. I’m guessing the rule may be similar coming from out of stare.

That's pretty standard. I'm kind of skirting the issue at the moment. Own property in OK and lease property in MO. I work in MO. But have kept my address and DL as OK. The we want your tax money makes everything a paperwork nightmare.

 

[Rule3]

Where is DogTown Tom he will set you all straight on the subject.?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may...roperty-another-state-purchase-firearm-either

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state

Pretty much a weekly topic in the legal section

 

[CapnMac]

as previously mentioned one cannot legally hold DL's from more than one state.

That actually varies from State To State. Typically, though, a State will issue a photo ID card that is not a DL.

18 months wouldn’t you need to get a Kansas DL?

In Texas if you reside in the state for more than 6 continuous weeks (and are not a student or similar transient) you are required to get TX DL. KS may be similar.

Some of that gets back to this (emphasis added):

Let's look at the actual definition of "State of Residence" (Quoted from 27CFR478.11):

"State of Residence - The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. I

CFR keys off the intention, and little else more,
Now, a person also must abide by the laws of the individual States.

Ok, for @Sovblocgunfan , from the KS DMV page (underscore added):

If you've just moved to Kansas, you can apply for a driver's license by following the instructions listed below. Depending on if you have an out-of-state driver's license or not, you may have some of your tests waived.

• Valid driver's license: Your driving and written tests will be waived.
• Driver's license expired for up to 1 year: Your driving test will be waived.

NOTE: By law, you are required to transfer your out-of-state driver's license within 90 days of becoming a Kansas resident.

Ok, it looks like KS requires you to give up all other DL:

8-235. Licenses required; city license, when; appeal from denial of license; vehicles registered under temporary permit; penalty; motorized bicycle driver's license. (a) No person, except those expressly exempted, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state unless such person has a valid driver's license. No person shall receive a driver's license unless and until such person surrenders or with the approval of the division, lists to the division all valid licenses in such person's possession issued to such person by any other jurisdiction. All surrendered licenses or the information listed on foreign licenses shall be returned by the division to the issuing department, together with information that the licensee is now licensed in a new jurisdiction. No person shall be permitted to have more than one valid license at any time.

Ah, KS has a non-driver Identification Card:

8-1324. Nondriver's identification card; application for; proof of age, identity and lawful presence; fees. (a) Any resident who does not hold a current valid Kansas driver's license may make application to the division of vehicles and be issued one identification card.

(b) For the purpose of obtaining an identification card, an applicant shall submit, with the application, proof of age, proof of identity and proof of lawful presence. An applicant shall submit with the application a photo identity document, except that a non-photo identity document is acceptable if it includes both the applicant's full legal name and date of birth, and documentation showing the applicant's name, the applicant's address of principal residence and the applicant's social security account number. The applicant's social security number shall remain confidential and shall not be disclosed, except as provided pursuant to K.S.A. 74-2012, and amendments thereto. If the applicant does not have a social security number, the applicant shall provide proof of lawful presence and Kansas residency. The division shall assign a distinguishing number to the identification card. Before issuing an identification card to a person, the division shall make reasonable efforts to verify with the issuing agency the issuance, validity and completeness of each document required to be presented by the applicant to prove age, identity and lawful presence.

To the best of my knowledge, information, and/or belief, KS will honor a valid (renewed) TX DL for driving within the State (KS allows the reciprocal). This is slightly complicated, as you are making clear an intent to reside in KS, but you are not doing so permanently, but also not as a transient, either. The non-driver ID would give you KS bona fides. Only goofy part is that you'd be registered to vote in two States as a result.

 

[AlexanderA]

That actually varies from State To State.

I looked into this, in another context. Florida was the last state to issue drivers' licenses to license holders from other states without cancelling the other license (because of "snowbirds" coming to Florida for the winter). But even Florida has now discontinued this. All states require you to surrender the other state's license when you apply for the local one.

Since the vast majority of FFL's use the driver's license as the primary (sole?) means of identification and verification of residence, it's best to pick one state and stick with it.

BTW, some car rental agencies, particularly overseas, won't rent you a car unless your driver's license has been in force for at least a year. So you don't want to be changing licenses on a regular basis.