Texas Resident Buying a Gun in KS

[12Bravo20]

To answer the question about leave. If I was only staying a few days (1-4) then the Army considered me "in transit". If I was at my home of record for 2 or more weeks AND the Army would send any and all official correspondences and official orders to that address, then it was my residence. And When I bought firearms in Missouri while on leave, it was when I was there for 2 or more weeks and would also get official Army mail there. So in that case, that WAS my residence at that time.

As far as how I did things as a FFL, I always did my best to fill everything out correctly especially the 4473's and my bound books.

So per the examples given above; AR lowers, complete AR lowers that never had an upper installed, pistol frames (without any slides) all were marked correctly as "other" on the 4473 and in my bound books.

 

[dogtown tom]

To answer the question about leave. If I was only staying a few days (1-4) then the Army considered me "in transit". If I was at my home of record for 2 or more weeks AND the Army would send any and all official correspondences and official orders to that address, then it was my residence. And When I bought firearms in Missouri while on leave, it was when I was there for 2 or more weeks and would also get official Army mail there. So in that case, that WAS my residence at that time.

What the Army thinks has no bearing on anything related to firearms law.

 

[RickD427]

Since you are convinced you lawfully bought those firearms while on leave in Missouri........you should answer my questions from above.
Again, while "home on leave" were you residing in Missouri?
Was it your intention to make MO your home while there on leave?
How do you think being home on leave jibes with https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1976-24-state-residency-armed-service-members/download which WAS IN EFFECT when you were in the military. Note that this ruling says absolutely nothing about acquiring a firearm from your "home of record".

And again, YOU completed the Form 4473 in 1994, not your dealer. YOU presented him with a MO drivers license. YOU certified under penalty of law that your answers were true, correct and complete. That dealer didn't make any judgement about a member of the Armed Forces on active duty because he didn't have that situation. Undoubtedly you filled out that 4473 using the address on your MO drivers license.

You're getting upset that we think you may have violated federal law, but you really haven't presented any information to support that you were indeed a resident of MO when on leave.

As Ruling 2010-6 State of Record wasn't published until 2010, it doesn't mean that ATF didn't hold that opinion in 1994.
That ruling states:

Being "on leave" for Christmas might be viewed as a transient act.



I'm not saying you didn't, but I know three local FFL's that also think they are following federal law and they do stuff like this:
Record AR lowers as a hand gun or long gun depending on how their customer wants.
Record complete AR lowers that have a stock attached as a rifle.
Record Glock frames as handguns.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now, they also think they are following the law because ATF hasn't corrected them. Having been an FFL you surely know why all three of those are recordkeeping violations and why ATF would likely never notice such a violation. Yet they are still violations.





Then back up your argument.

To answer the question about leave. If I was only staying a few days (1-4) then the Army considered me "in transit". If I was at my home of record for 2 or more weeks AND the Army would send any and all official correspondences and official orders to that address, then it was my residence. And When I bought firearms in Missouri while on leave, it was when I was there for 2 or more weeks and would also get official Army mail there. So in that case, that WAS my residence at that time.

As far as how I did things as a FFL, I always did my best to fill everything out correctly especially the 4473's and my bound books.

So per the examples given above; AR lowers, complete AR lowers that never had an upper installed, pistol frames (without any slides) all were marked correctly as "other" on the 4473 and in my bound books.

12Bravo20

I have to thank you for your military service, but I also have to observe that your are factually wrong in making the following statement (quoted from your Post #65):

"I was still able to legally purchase firearms, to include handguns, here in Missouri while on leave and also legally purchase firearms in what ever state I was stationed in. I did both while I was in the Army and never broke any federal or state laws. The only state that I was stationed in that I did not purchase anything was Massachusetts since their state laws were very strict even in 1991."​

Dogtown Tom has given a pretty good summary in his postings, but he's used secondary materials and other derived sources to support his points. I always like to go right to the bedrock of the underlying statutes in order to base my conclusions. In dealing with your quote, I'm going to address your reference to handguns. It is possible that you may have been able to lawfully purchase rifles and shotguns while on leave in Missouri and stationed in a different state under the provisions of 18USC922(b)(3), but you could not have lawfully done so in the case of handguns. Here are the reasons:

1) You must be a resident of the state in which you are purchasing the handgun. That's also clearly spelled out in 18USC922(b)(3).

2) Your arguments apply the belief that your "residence" is determined by your identity documents, and by the Army's use of terminology to describe your status. Neither is completely true. The governing statutes make absolutely no mention of identification documents. The only military terminology that is recognized is "Permanent Duty Station."

3) The date of ATF ruling 2010-6 isn't relevant to this discussion. All that ruling did was to clarify law that has been in existence since 1968.

4) As a military member, your "State of Residence" is determined, and has been determined since 1968, by 18USC921(b). Here is the exact text of that statute:

"For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located."​

Please note that statute uses "Permanent Duty Station" to define your residency. State ID documents, temporary duty assignments and in-transit status don't change anything. You'll find differing definitions of residency within the National Motor Vehicles Compact on Driver Licensing, and in the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act, but those also don't matter. 18USC921(b) is the governing definition for use in Chapter 44 of Part 1 of Title 18.

I don't doubt that you may have successfully purchased handguns in a state where you possessed state ID documents while assigned to a permanent duty station in a different state. The FFL can reasonably rely on documents that you present to them, but the fact that you were successful, does not mean the conduct was lawful.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I see that yet again I am wrong ....

Here's the thing. Personal experiences are not useful for the purposes of understanding what the law is. The law is not found in one's personal experiences. The law is found in the texts of constitutions, regulations adopted by regulatory agencies, statutes and ordinances adopted by legislative bodies, and court decisions.

When a court is deciding a matter of law, it will be considering the texts of constitutions, regulations adopted by regulatory agencies, statutes and ordinances adopted by legislative bodies, and court decisions -- NOT one's personal experiences.

As stated in the Legal Forum Guidelines:

...Comments and opinions should be based on legal principles and supported where appropriate with reference to legal authority, including court decisions, statutes and scholarly articles....

This side discussion ends now.

 

[Shanvanvocht]

entropy said: ↑
as previously mentioned one cannot legally hold DL's from more than one state.

That actually varies from State To State

The (Federal) Surface Transportation Act of 1976 prohibits an individual holding a driver license in more than one state. The Act was specifically targeting interstate truck drivers but the prohibition is universal.