Soonerpesek
Member
I have (3) 1 LB'ers, that I believe are true 1 pound ( Now I will have to look when I get home).
I have heard good things about the SW powders, tho.
The .45-70 Gap
- Thread starter 3Crows
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I have (3) 1 LB'ers, that I believe are true 1 pound ( Now I will have to look when I get home).
I have heard good things about the SW powders, tho.
Bush Pilot
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I thought Glock had come up with another unneeded cartridge.
Soonerpesek
Member
I did find that the Trapdoor level and the Levergun level did have a gap, the LG level and the Ruger #1 level did overlap (with AA5744)
I did find that some powders did overlap among the levels, while others did not. For instance, Reloader 10 did overlap in the levels.
The Hodgdon annual manual doesn't list loads for the trapdoor level, and, the pressure levels listed in the front for the various tiers are QUITE different than other books...
They listed H4198, but not across the level/bullet comparisons.
The (3) 1 lbers that I have all state 1 pound on the canisters...
Bearded Phil
Member
The best solution would be for @3Crows to grab a copy of Lyman Cast #4. I have a copy here and it has:
Trapdoor:
Lyman #457193- cast plain base- #2 alloy
I4198- 31.5gr start- 12,400 CUP- 35.0gr max- 17,700 CUP
Lever actions:
Lyman #457193- cast plain base- 20:1 alloy
I4198- 36.5gr start- 18,300 CUP- 40.5gr max- 27,500 CUP
The only real weird thing going on here is the harder alloy being used for trapdoor level and the binary, softer alloy being used for lever action levels.
If you're going to shoot a lot of cast this book is handy.
Trapdoor:
Lyman #457193- cast plain base- #2 alloy
I4198- 31.5gr start- 12,400 CUP- 35.0gr max- 17,700 CUP
Lever actions:
Lyman #457193- cast plain base- 20:1 alloy
I4198- 36.5gr start- 18,300 CUP- 40.5gr max- 27,500 CUP
The only real weird thing going on here is the harder alloy being used for trapdoor level and the binary, softer alloy being used for lever action levels.
If you're going to shoot a lot of cast this book is handy.
ahutch71
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The SW Buffalo Rifle is my favorite for 45-70, and an exact duplicate for 5744. Apparently Lovex (that make SW powders) used to make AA5744 for Accurate, but they shifted production to another manufacturer. So Lovex kept making it, and now sell it rebranded.
I’ve used it in a lot of other cartridges as well, as it has a very linear pressure curve and is stable at extremely light loads.
AJC1
Member
Lyman did that in 38 harder than 357 bullets in some circumstances and I can't get my mind around why they do stuff like that.
Thanks all. Things to do:
1. Get a Lyman 457193SC bullet mold.
2. Get the Lyman manual.
3. Get some of the SW Buffalo Rifle propellent!
4. Call/write Hogden.
Thing is that I have a stash of RL7, H4198 and IMR4198 and plenty enough of Unique and Universal. And I like the twins (H/I 4198). I also have 400 MBC coated Buffalo #1 coming to augment my 200 reaming (not coated) and I have somewhere around 600 405 Laser Cast. So I need to use some of this up before getting too far adventurous in other directions. Oh, quite a bit of Trail Boss too, enough to keep me going until they bring it back (please!).
The rifle I am loading for principally, Ruger-Marlin GBL:
And it's mates, missing is the cantankerous JM Cowboy:
Too cold and windy today to shoot and got some family visiting on the agenda but I plan to work on up to 34 grains, maybe 35, of H4198 to sneak up on 1500 fps. Since 32.0 grains is giving me 1430 fps average or about that, I could just call it good with that because any pig or deer in the lower 48 I am pretty sure can be killed plenty dead with a 405 grain bullet and MV of 1430 out to a good 150 plus yards. Why cap my velocity at 1500 fps? Well, I do not like to needlessly abuse my rifle and my shoulder, internet wisdom seems to indicate leading might begin thereabout and simply, it is enough to do the job.
1. Get a Lyman 457193SC bullet mold.
2. Get the Lyman manual.
3. Get some of the SW Buffalo Rifle propellent!
4. Call/write Hogden.
Thing is that I have a stash of RL7, H4198 and IMR4198 and plenty enough of Unique and Universal. And I like the twins (H/I 4198). I also have 400 MBC coated Buffalo #1 coming to augment my 200 reaming (not coated) and I have somewhere around 600 405 Laser Cast. So I need to use some of this up before getting too far adventurous in other directions. Oh, quite a bit of Trail Boss too, enough to keep me going until they bring it back (please!).
The rifle I am loading for principally, Ruger-Marlin GBL:
And it's mates, missing is the cantankerous JM Cowboy:
Too cold and windy today to shoot and got some family visiting on the agenda but I plan to work on up to 34 grains, maybe 35, of H4198 to sneak up on 1500 fps. Since 32.0 grains is giving me 1430 fps average or about that, I could just call it good with that because any pig or deer in the lower 48 I am pretty sure can be killed plenty dead with a 405 grain bullet and MV of 1430 out to a good 150 plus yards. Why cap my velocity at 1500 fps? Well, I do not like to needlessly abuse my rifle and my shoulder, internet wisdom seems to indicate leading might begin thereabout and simply, it is enough to do the job.
Palladan44
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Original Trapdoors were created on the 45-70 round using Black Powder. A lot less pressures were generated.
Fast forward to smokeless powder, a lot more energy can be gained per volume of powder.
A full .45-70 loaded to hot levels could indeed damage an old trapdoor firearm, or worse.....
It would be like shooting full house modern Buffalo Bore 357 Magnum In say a 1905 Colt Police Positive revolver (if the cylinders allowed the insertion of the cartridge)....it would break the gun quite quickly.
Modern alloys in modern firearms can be built to withstand much greater forces, pressures, etc. and we're engineered and tested using high energy smokeless powders....where the old trapdoors simply were not.
The only analogy I can make that is similar to your question of "why the large gap" is also essentially the difference between .38 Special and 357 Magnum.
Fast forward to smokeless powder, a lot more energy can be gained per volume of powder.
A full .45-70 loaded to hot levels could indeed damage an old trapdoor firearm, or worse.....
It would be like shooting full house modern Buffalo Bore 357 Magnum In say a 1905 Colt Police Positive revolver (if the cylinders allowed the insertion of the cartridge)....it would break the gun quite quickly.
Modern alloys in modern firearms can be built to withstand much greater forces, pressures, etc. and we're engineered and tested using high energy smokeless powders....where the old trapdoors simply were not.
The only analogy I can make that is similar to your question of "why the large gap" is also essentially the difference between .38 Special and 357 Magnum.
AJC1
Member
If the bottom one is the XLR, that's the one I have. The rifle can handle more than my shoulder wants, so we have agreed to not be juvenile in loading this cartridge. My dentist may be disappointed I'm not shaking my fillings loose, but I'm not... stay safe.
Yes sir, I understand all of that and I care nothing for trapdoors nor will I ever own one. That does not explain the gap that I find for several powders and bullets BETWEEN trapdoor levels and the bottom end of Marlin/lever loads. I am trying to build a few relatively mild loads above trapdoor. But thank you for the clarification for posterity.
No I am odd in that I have two SBLs. I have a lot of rounds from mild to wild through the top SBL and it has taken several deer and hogs. I bought it in Alaska when after doing a solo multi-day hike decided that I needed a big gun just in case. And thankfully the only bear I saw was far more interested in berries than me as I have no interest in shooting one unless it tries to snack on me. I slept with it in my sleeping bag. I fell on a slope and busted the forward stock but duct tape and a leather strap held it together. When I got home I called, yep, Marlin of Remington, and believe it or not they sent me another. And dang if it not only fit perfect, better than the original, but it also matched better. Yep, it is a Rem-Marlin and it is possibly my favorite rifle ever and certainly my favorite Marlin going back to the 60s when I got my first 336. A couple of years ago in Idaho I was offered, I am not even going to say, a stupendous sum for it and I turned the gent down to his dismay and I have no regrets.
Charlie98
Member
The load data was created to maximize the cartridge within the specific pressure window available. As was mentioned, Trapdoor data was generated to top out at the pressure limits designated for Trappy data, the Levers data was generated to top out at the pressure limits designated for Lever data... it's that simple. There is a no-man's land (your 'gap') between the two pressure limits in data only... and I understand your question, and your desire to only use published data, but...
If you look at Hodgdon's data with AA5744 (only because I can't make an apples to apples comparo with IMR4198 using the 405grn cast bullet, using their data...) and considering you are loading for a modern lever... you have a load range of 24.3grn AA5744, all the way to 34grn AA5744, using the 405grn cast bullet. There is no Danger Zone from where the Trapdoor data leaves off (27grn) to where the Lever data picks up (30.6grn,) that data simply wasn't generated. You CAN load 28.5grn AA5744 with that same cast 405grn bullet... and you won't shift the earth off it's axis. The 'gap' is there because it doesn't make sense to go through the trouble to generate milk toast data for a lever-action, and very likely there is the very same Gap between the top of the Lever loads, and the #1 data.
What do I do? I actually load .45-70 with IMR4198 at slightly above the limits of Trapdoor data, for my Pedersoli 1885.... yes, in the Gap. I was meeting a specific velocity threshold that I wanted, and it just happened to be out there.
I ordered the Lyman #4 manual and I have a copy of the 50th coming as well. I guess I might need the 49th also?
I agree, the Gap is probably a figment of my overly cautious imagination
. Better safe than sorry.
I tried to call Hogden but the engineer was out. I will try again probably after the holidays. I was an engineer and often answered customer questions, I much preferred written questions to phone so I might just email them.
I agree, the Gap is probably a figment of my overly cautious imagination
. Better safe than sorry. I tried to call Hogden but the engineer was out. I will try again probably after the holidays. I was an engineer and often answered customer questions, I much preferred written questions to phone so I might just email them.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Yup. Absolutely. No quibbles there. I never took the question lightly. I think it’s a good idea to check. Some good answers here. I think it’s a safe practice.
Charlie98
Member
I agree, the Gap is probably a figment of my overly cautious imagination
Yes and no. You just happened to pick one of those cartridges that does not have cut and dried data for it... or, rather, has tiered data. (The other that I'm thinking of is .45 Colt.) Safety should always be #1...
EricBu
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45-70 is similar to Colt in that today we have basically 3 Tiers. Trapdoor, post trapdoor (repeater), and the Ruger/TC loads. The Trapdoor "gap" is largely historic......the Army's original requirement when the Trapdoor entered service. The copper cases of the day got hot and extracted poorly, some genius decided the fix was keeping the round at a lower pressure than what was tested and intended originally. Obviously, the Battle Of Little Bighorn demonstrated that the "fix" wasn't quite real, as some historians claim that post battle recovery efforts detailed not a single Trapdoor without a cartridge case wedged in the chamber with the head sheared, and plenty of unfired 45-70 cartridges remaining. Contrarily, the sidearm in use in the day was a 45 Colt, and there was allegedly not a single unexpended round of Colt found on the battlefield. No doubt the number of soldiers would have led to a loss regardless, but the Trapdoor was unquestionably responsible for a loss becoming a massacre.
Modern load data that is trapdoor specific exists for a couple of reasons...not just because a potentially nearly 150 year old gun may not be able to handle the post trapdoor pressures, but also to align with that early reduced pressure and performance. Of course, we all know plenty of people who have shot modern 45-70 through their Trapdoors with nary a problem (the remington core lokt 45-70 is a popular example), I personally sure wouldn't, but that's just me. According to my History of 45-70, and my older load manuals, Trapdoor loads maximum PSI is 19000 (not recommended to exceed 18K). My load manuals that list data for all 3 tiers show Trapdoor at 19K, post trapdoor @ 28,000, and Ruger No. 1/TC data at 40K PSI. My personal preferred non-smokemore Trapdoor load is Accurate 5744 @ 25 grains under a 405 LFP bullet, which is about 1300 fps out of my guns.
Modern load data that is trapdoor specific exists for a couple of reasons...not just because a potentially nearly 150 year old gun may not be able to handle the post trapdoor pressures, but also to align with that early reduced pressure and performance. Of course, we all know plenty of people who have shot modern 45-70 through their Trapdoors with nary a problem (the remington core lokt 45-70 is a popular example), I personally sure wouldn't, but that's just me. According to my History of 45-70, and my older load manuals, Trapdoor loads maximum PSI is 19000 (not recommended to exceed 18K). My load manuals that list data for all 3 tiers show Trapdoor at 19K, post trapdoor @ 28,000, and Ruger No. 1/TC data at 40K PSI. My personal preferred non-smokemore Trapdoor load is Accurate 5744 @ 25 grains under a 405 LFP bullet, which is about 1300 fps out of my guns.
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Remington1911
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Not long ago we went down the pressure road in "the other trapdoor" thread. I don't remember who but someone linked up an amazing article, well worth the read and I have a feeling it will change your thoughts on this pressure end of the debate.
Perhaps 2nd link here:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...e-max-trapdoor-safe-psi.912823/#post-12470666
(?)
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...e-max-trapdoor-safe-psi.912823/#post-12470666
(?)
Soonerpesek
Member
I would be interested in what you settled/decided upon in your load data, chrono, powder charge, and the like.
Whether you post it or a PM.........
Charlie98
Member
Do it! Enquiring minds want to know...
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